Micro four-thirds vs. Foveon

Posting this out of amazement, after carefully setting a Panasonic GH1+14-45mm and the DP2M as equivalent as I could get and very carefully manually focusing on the power pole at the end of the street:

2068fd0838fe472aa5fb130dbc973501.jpg

The difference in "detail" should be obvious even in the post view!

Having switched to Sigma (SD9) years ago, I must have become quite blasé as regards the Foveon, although I do recall being mightily impressed with the Merrills when they first came out.

With deteriorating eyesight and ever-shakier hands, I became nostalgic about the ease of use of the Panasonic 'G' models and thought I would try the GH1 for a while, hence the shoot-out.

Distance to the power pole was 175 meters. The GH1 was set to 3:2 aspect ratio to match the DP2M. The DP2M shot was re-sampled down to 4128x2752px giving a slight sharpness advantage to the DP2M but not enough to explain the jaw-dropping difference.

It's almost like the lens is bad (it's the 14-45mm G1 kit lens); I intend to charge up my G1 and see how that compares ...
Hi Ted,

Focus Magic finds a 7 pixel out of optimum focus on the left image which probably explains the vast difference. It's difficult to say what might have caused this but probably not the lens. It would almost have to be a terrible lens to cause such a dramatic difference. I'm betting that something in the focus mechanism was responsible.
And, since it was no better on my other MFT camera, that "focus mechanism" would logically be in the lens. So much for the advantage of live view for magnified manual focus, grump.

I'm planning to repeat the shot with my other MFT lens.
I repeated the shot with the Leica 45mm macro Elmarit and took a shot with the zoom set to 45mm. Shots turned out about the same, with a very slight edge in favor of the Leica. I also took a shot with the zoom set to 14mm, out of interest. Comparing the two zoom shots with yesterday's shot at 22mm was quite instructive:

note the different Nearest Neighbor zoom levels used to equalize the framing
note the different Nearest Neighbor zoom levels used to equalize the framing

My thinking leans towards blaming neither the lens nor the de-mosaicing. Maybe, in MFT, this is what you get at 650ft (170m).

Above at right, I was quite impressed with the 45mm shot. That street sign is about 100mm tall and the lettering font is about 10mm thick. You can almost, but not quite, read the street name.

At that distance, one pixel at 22mm focal length subtends about 33mm (about 1.3") so what you see is maybe not too bad for a kit lens and in-camera conversion to JPEG ...
Either [your] KIT lens is a lemon or you missed focused on the two first images.
Thank you for your helpful comment.
*plonk*

--
Don't blame the camera
Still trying to upgrade photographer body
 
Hello!

When did I ever say anything different? Do you see the word "comparison" in any of my posts here?

Just because you can't read and think about what you have read, and like to call your rubbish (please allow me to borrow your wording from above here) before using your brain, does not make up for your lack of reading-comprehension it seems.

My post was to show Ted, who in my understanding was pondering an MFT second body, what the Pen F can do - no "fair" or any other comparison, just showing what does what, terms laid out.

On a final note, next time you don't understand something, you might consider simply asking instead of calling your uncalled-for rubbish. And you also don't have to like what and in which ways I post. Just move on doing whatever you do (maybe get a Wörterbuch instead of calling your rubbish so that you do at least get your spelling right next time you try to be extra-smart with your insulting).

I will conclude this with a notion of respect though - it must take quite a bold ego to still sport a dicke Lippe while being so far off the mark on all accounts like you were here.

Best,

Alex

--
carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
 
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Hello!

Now I get it, sorry, it's is your lacking reading comprehension!

That explains it - but I will try to spell it out for you so that even you will hopefully understand.

The Helios is a 58mm lens - put that on a Metabones Speedbooster XL -[both pieces of info are clearly visible in my previous post...] means applying a focal reduction of x0.64, so that the Helios behaves like a roughly 37mm lens; putting this assembly of lens/focal reducer on an MFT body and thereby subjecting it to the x2 crop results in a roughly 74 mm output.

This is not so far off, shooting against the 3Q's 75mm output.

Both were shot from the same spot, focussed at the windows you see - is there a difference in framing? Yes, because of the 3:2 vs 4:3 format choices I did not mind.

On to the next part, you (probably?) missed or did not know/care to inform yourself about - the PenF was in SFD mode [info clearly given in the OP] - in Oly-speak this means the pixel-shift High-Res mode that puts out an 80Megapixel file.

This is what you are seeing.

I downsampled because I can and because I wanted to see what it looks like that way - nothing more, nothing less (and what I called it).
Now I get it. It is down to your stupidity to compare a 20Mpx picture to a 80Mpx picture.

Google: PEN-F and SDF and you get no hits

Taugenicht!
This does seem unnecessarily aggressive and rude over what seems to be a simple mis-communication/mis-understanding.
 
Hello Ted!

Unfortunately I don't speak Takumar too well (only have a couple of longer ones, acquired recently out of curiosity), but I have generally seen happy Pentax-campers. Looking forward to your findings!

Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong? One feature I really like about the Olys (apart from the IBIS) are the "creative" long-exposure modes that offer a lot of room for creativity and having fun. I can think of you also enjoying those. Just a though if you consider adding a different body.

Best,

Alex

--
carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
 
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Hello Ted!

Unfortunately I don't speak Takumar too well (only have a couple of longer ones, acquired recently out of curiosity), but I have generally seen happy Pentax-campers. Looking forward to your findings!

Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
 
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
 
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
I had the G1 and GF1 and use GH2s at work. I have my own G3, G6 and G7.

The G7 is the first one they got the controls right on. Conventional front and rear dials, perfectly placed. All the earlier models are infuriating, with the g6 the least bad (because you can customise the rocker switch for the power zoom to exposure control), but still irritating because the rear dial is too small and offset at an odd angle, each older model gets progressively worse with the G1 the worst handling of all. I think if you played with the G7 onwards, you'd very quickly realise how bad the G1 style layout is and how well judged the twin control dial layout is.

The touch screen is annoying because you can accidentally keep moving the focus point. The way around that is to turn the rear screen so it faces in. Then if you need to play back, you open it out and it switches on automatically.
 
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
I had the G1 and GF1 and use GH2s at work. I have my own G3, G6 and G7.

The G7 is the first one they got the controls right on. Conventional front and rear dials, perfectly placed. All the earlier models are infuriating, with the g6 the least bad (because you can customise the rocker switch for the power zoom to exposure control), but still irritating because the rear dial is too small and offset at an odd angle, each older model gets progressively worse with the G1 the worst handling of all. I think if you played with the G7 onwards, you'd very quickly realise how bad the G1 style layout is and how well judged the twin control dial layout is.

The touch screen is annoying because you can accidentally keep moving the focus point. The way around that is to turn the rear screen so it faces in. Then if you need to play back, you open it out and it switches on automatically.
Thanks for the run-down on your Panasonics, Dave. I've only had the G1 and GH1 - so I'm used to their ergonomic oddities. I got the G1 for fifty bucks - I keep it as a spare. I've just put bids on a couple of 12-35mm f/2.8 G Vario-X, so I might be poor shortly, they're not cheap, unlike my suspect kit lens.

--
Ted
 
Last edited:
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
I had the G1 and GF1 and use GH2s at work. I have my own G3, G6 and G7.

The G7 is the first one they got the controls right on. Conventional front and rear dials, perfectly placed. All the earlier models are infuriating, with the g6 the least bad (because you can customise the rocker switch for the power zoom to exposure control), but still irritating because the rear dial is too small and offset at an odd angle, each older model gets progressively worse with the G1 the worst handling of all. I think if you played with the G7 onwards, you'd very quickly realise how bad the G1 style layout is and how well judged the twin control dial layout is.

The touch screen is annoying because you can accidentally keep moving the focus point. The way around that is to turn the rear screen so it faces in. Then if you need to play back, you open it out and it switches on automatically.
Thanks for the run-down on your Panasonics, Dave. I've only had the G1 and GH1 - so I'm used to their ergonomic oddities. I got the G1 for fifty bucks - I keep it as a spare. I've just put bids on a couple of 12-35mm f/2.8 G Vario-X, so I might be poor shortly, they're not cheap, unlike my suspect kit lens.
I don't have any fancy lenses for my Lumix. Just the 17mm pancake, much maligned but seems fine to me, the 30mm Sigma DN and the 45-150 and the pancake 35-100mm. They all seem good to me and with careful use of ebay etc, needn't cost a fortune. Is the 12-35mm one of the more "premium" lenses? Hope you don't have to pay too much for it.
 
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
I had the G1 and GF1 and use GH2s at work. I have my own G3, G6 and G7.

The G7 is the first one they got the controls right on. Conventional front and rear dials, perfectly placed. All the earlier models are infuriating, with the g6 the least bad (because you can customise the rocker switch for the power zoom to exposure control), but still irritating because the rear dial is too small and offset at an odd angle, each older model gets progressively worse with the G1 the worst handling of all. I think if you played with the G7 onwards, you'd very quickly realise how bad the G1 style layout is and how well judged the twin control dial layout is.

The touch screen is annoying because you can accidentally keep moving the focus point. The way around that is to turn the rear screen so it faces in. Then if you need to play back, you open it out and it switches on automatically.
Thanks for the run-down on your Panasonics, Dave. I've only had the G1 and GH1 - so I'm used to their ergonomic oddities. I got the G1 for fifty bucks - I keep it as a spare. I've just put bids on a couple of 12-35mm f/2.8 G Vario-X, so I might be poor shortly, they're not cheap, unlike my suspect kit lens.
I don't have any fancy lenses for my Lumix. Just the 17mm pancake, much maligned but seems fine to me, the 30mm Sigma DN and the 45-150 and the pancake 35-100mm. They all seem good to me and with careful use of ebay etc, needn't cost a fortune. Is the 12-35mm one of the more "premium" lenses?
Not sure but it does have a constant f/2.8 has got got generally good reviews,

Hope you don't have to pay too much for it.
Probably about 3 to 400 quid; the most I would have ever paid for a lens ...
 
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
I had the G1 and GF1 and use GH2s at work. I have my own G3, G6 and G7.

The G7 is the first one they got the controls right on. Conventional front and rear dials, perfectly placed. All the earlier models are infuriating, with the g6 the least bad (because you can customise the rocker switch for the power zoom to exposure control), but still irritating because the rear dial is too small and offset at an odd angle, each older model gets progressively worse with the G1 the worst handling of all. I think if you played with the G7 onwards, you'd very quickly realise how bad the G1 style layout is and how well judged the twin control dial layout is.

The touch screen is annoying because you can accidentally keep moving the focus point. The way around that is to turn the rear screen so it faces in. Then if you need to play back, you open it out and it switches on automatically.
Thanks for the run-down on your Panasonics, Dave. I've only had the G1 and GH1 - so I'm used to their ergonomic oddities. I got the G1 for fifty bucks - I keep it as a spare. I've just put bids on a couple of 12-35mm f/2.8 G Vario-X, so I might be poor shortly, they're not cheap, unlike my suspect kit lens.
I don't have any fancy lenses for my Lumix. Just the 17mm pancake, much maligned but seems fine to me, the 30mm Sigma DN and the 45-150 and the pancake 35-100mm. They all seem good to me and with careful use of ebay etc, needn't cost a fortune. Is the 12-35mm one of the more "premium" lenses?
Not sure but it does have a constant f/2.8 has got got generally good reviews,

https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/lenses/panasonic_x_12-35_2p8
Hope you don't have to pay too much for it.
Probably about 3 to 400 quid; the most I would have ever paid for a lens ...
More than I would pay these days.
 
Do you consider getting a "recent" MFT body or did I get that wrong?
Hello again,

Not considering another MFT body, Alex. Panasonic irritated me when the clicker/wheel disappeared from the front of the camera and also when the LCD changed to a touch-screen.

Sometimes things disappearing from cameras can be quite inconvenient; no doubt you can think of other instances ...
... for example, one wheel disappearing from the SD9/10 when the SD14 was introduced ...

... and the top LCD disappearing from the SD14/15 when the SD1 was introduced ...
I had the G1 and GF1 and use GH2s at work. I have my own G3, G6 and G7.

The G7 is the first one they got the controls right on. Conventional front and rear dials, perfectly placed. All the earlier models are infuriating, with the g6 the least bad (because you can customise the rocker switch for the power zoom to exposure control), but still irritating because the rear dial is too small and offset at an odd angle, each older model gets progressively worse with the G1 the worst handling of all. I think if you played with the G7 onwards, you'd very quickly realise how bad the G1 style layout is and how well judged the twin control dial layout is.

The touch screen is annoying because you can accidentally keep moving the focus point. The way around that is to turn the rear screen so it faces in. Then if you need to play back, you open it out and it switches on automatically.
Thanks for the run-down on your Panasonics, Dave. I've only had the G1 and GH1 - so I'm used to their ergonomic oddities. I got the G1 for fifty bucks - I keep it as a spare. I've just put bids on a couple of 12-35mm f/2.8 G Vario-X, so I might be poor shortly, they're not cheap, unlike my suspect kit lens.
I don't have any fancy lenses for my Lumix. Just the 17mm pancake, much maligned but seems fine to me, the 30mm Sigma DN and the 45-150 and the pancake 35-100mm. They all seem good to me and with careful use of ebay etc, needn't cost a fortune. Is the 12-35mm one of the more "premium" lenses?
Not sure but it does have a constant f/2.8 has got got generally good reviews,

https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/lenses/panasonic_x_12-35_2p8
Hope you don't have to pay too much for it.
Probably about 3 to 400 quid; the most I would have ever paid for a lens ...
More than I would pay these days.
Funny how easy it is to get drawn into G.A.S. mode. The "Leica" 12-60mm f/2.8-4 caught my eye today - for a few dollars more ...
 
Ted

Those are the two standard zooms you should be considering, if you want good IQ from your Panasonic camera. I don't think it's GAS to have a decent zoom and a small and light one (with lesser IQ).

Just make sure to take many hundreds or thousands of decent pictures with it, once it arrives.

Andrew
 
Ted

Those are the two standard zooms you should be considering, if you want good IQ from your Panasonic camera. I don't think it's GAS to have a decent zoom and a small and light one (with lesser IQ).
Thanks for the advice, Andrew, I am greatly encouraged!
 
I took the liberty of up-res'ing the Sigma crop from your last image to equal the Olympus crop. Hope you don't mind. The result need no comment...



90b5b444c7a94cd29553d3c88474b53d.jpg
 

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