Can venues really make you delete your photos?

MinAZ · Aug 7, 2019

I've read at certain venues where they have photography policies that include verbiage stating that the management, staff, and security have the right to for any reason whatsoever request inspection of your photos. If the photos are deemed inappropriate, the Event Manager or Head of Security may immediately delete the offending photos. They may then ban you from taking further photos and kick you our or call the authorities.

Firstly the wording is kinda interesting. The have the right to request... well of course they do, and you have the right to say no (upon which they have the right to remove you of course). But the second part if you are dumb enough to comply with their request (e.g. if you did not read the the event rules) they can then immediately delete your photos.

Surely not?

Could they say that by attending the event and supposedly having read the rules printed on your ticket that therefore you have tacitly agreed to give them the power to do this? And therefore they do have the right to delete your photos since you have implicitly given them the power by attending the event?

Or is there some higher right that prevents them from doing so? This is quite a concern because as you can imagine, it is quite easy for the event to hide these terms in the fine print.

a_c_skinner · Aug 8, 2019

It would be a legitimate term to add to any commercial contract of admission to private property. They must make you aware of this term before making the contract of course. (England and Wales.)

Pragmatically security men tend to be bigger than me and often not alone.

sybersitizen · Aug 8, 2019

MinAZ said:
Could they say that by attending the event and supposedly having read the rules printed on your ticket that therefore you have tacitly agreed to give them the power to do this? And therefore they do have the right to delete your photos since you have implicitly given them the power by attending the event?

They can say they have the right to do all sorts of things, and might actually do all sorts of things. If they do, though, a recourse is to take them to court to determine whether their claimed rights and actions were in fact within the law of the jurisdiction. That's how alleged but unproven rights are tested.

Have you ever seen Trespassers will be shot signs? They proclaim a 'right' to perform an action that's not legal in most places I know of unless in self-defense or in fear of great bodily harm or death, and a trial would determine the actual legality of it.

BTW, deleted photos can normally be recovered later as long as the memory card isn't confiscated or damaged. Are there venues claiming the right to do those things?

robgendreau · Aug 8, 2019

You'd need the actual language. What you cite is rather vague. Some places only allow access with certain conditions, and if you enter, you agree to them. Lots of concerts for example. So if you agree to say "no photos" and violate that agreement they could take action. Usually it's booting you. Actually seizing photos that may be covered by fair use is more problematic.

tbcass · Aug 8, 2019

Give them the backup copy for deletion and they probably don't even know you have 2.

Alex Ethridge · Aug 8, 2019

MinAZ said:
I've read at certain venues where they have photography policies that include verbiage stating that the management, staff, and security have the right to for any reason whatsoever request inspection of your photos. If the photos are deemed inappropriate, the Event Manager or Head of Security may immediately delete the offending photos. They may then ban you from taking further photos and kick you our or call the authorities.

Firstly the wording is kinda interesting. The have the right to request... well of course they do, and you have the right to say no (upon which they have the right to remove you of course). But the second part if you are dumb enough to comply with their request (e.g. if you did not read the the event rules) they can then immediately delete your photos.

Surely not?

Could they say that by attending the event and supposedly having read the rules printed on your ticket that therefore you have tacitly agreed to give them the power to do this? And therefore they do have the right to delete your photos since you have implicitly given them the power by attending the event?

Or is there some higher right that prevents them from doing so? This is quite a concern because as you can imagine, it is quite easy for the event to hide these terms in the fine print.

I can speak only concerning the USA.

It depends on how the rules are presented. I entered a repair shop that had a sign on the wall that said all items will be sold for repair fees after 30 days. That policy is enforceable only if called to the attention of the owner of the item before the item is left for repair. Otherwise, it is considered abandoned (can be sold) after one year from the date the owner is notified it is ready for pickup.

I see overloaded dump trucks with signs on the back that says "keep back 500 feet, not responsible for falling rocks". That is a total bluff.

It is possible in some situations to waive your Constitutional rights to privacy and your protection against unreasonable search and seizure if properly notified before the ticket is purchased. However, improper (or no) notification and violation of your rights can happen.

Good luck fighting it in court.

Police by the thousands in the USA violate the rights of law-abiding Americans every day, and with impunity.

Wanna' get depressed and angry all at the same time? Go to YouTube and search for First Amendment Audit.

Graham Meale · Aug 9, 2019

You bet. I know of places where police confiscate cameras. I've watched them do it.

My camera has two cards, and can be set to record on both. If I'm asked to delete a photo I can do it while they watch. Little do they know I still have it on the other card.

In practice, I've never engaged in such deception, but it's nice to know it's an option.

tbcass · Aug 9, 2019

Graham Meale said:
You bet. I know of places where police confiscate cameras. I've watched them do it.

My camera has two cards, and can be set to record on both. If I'm asked to delete a photo I can do it while they watch. Little do they know I still have it on the other card.

In practice, I've never engaged in such deception, but it's nice to know it's an option.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62970407

Great minds think alike.

Gato Amarillo · Aug 9, 2019

MinAZ said:
...
Could they say that by attending the event and supposedly having read the rules printed on your ticket that therefore you have tacitly agreed to give them the power to do this? And therefore they do have the right to delete your photos since you have implicitly given them the power by attending the event?

That would be their argument. In the US it might come down to who can afford the better lawyer.

These days tickets often include wording restricting photography. As to whether they can force you to delete photos, I don't know. The word "request" seems to imply you can refuse, but it would cost many thousands in legal fees to test it in court. And, as someone mentioned, security people tend to be large and travel in pairs. Would you risk a broken camera or physical injury to prove a point?

MinAZ said:
Or is there some higher right that prevents them from doing so? This is quite a concern because as you can imagine, it is quite easy for the event to hide these terms in the fine print.

That's why you should always read the fine print. Always good to know the rules, especially if you plan to break them.

Gato

stevo23 · Aug 9, 2019

MinAZ said:
I've read at certain venues where they have photography policies that include verbiage stating that the management, staff, and security have the right to for any reason whatsoever request inspection of your photos. If the photos are deemed inappropriate, the Event Manager or Head of Security may immediately delete the offending photos. They may then ban you from taking further photos and kick you our or call the authorities.

Firstly the wording is kinda interesting. The have the right to request... well of course they do, and you have the right to say no (upon which they have the right to remove you of course). But the second part if you are dumb enough to comply with their request (e.g. if you did not read the the event rules) they can then immediately delete your photos.

Surely not?

Could they say that by attending the event and supposedly having read the rules printed on your ticket that therefore you have tacitly agreed to give them the power to do this? And therefore they do have the right to delete your photos since you have implicitly given them the power by attending the event?

Or is there some higher right that prevents them from doing so? This is quite a concern because as you can imagine, it is quite easy for the event to hide these terms in the fine print.

They absolutely have the right to send you off their property for no particular reason short of illegal discrimination. Stating this about your photos just clarifies that it's not racial or other illegal discrimination and protects them from legal action on those grounds.

But they really don't have a right to see your photos - just a right to kick you out if they don't like that you're taking photos. If you do not leave at their request, they can call the local police to have you removed.

They want you to buy a ticket which is why they put it in the fine print - virtually assuring that you will not see or read it.

But does this make sense? Maybe - Artists try to control the use of their images for profit. And certain artists will try to sue for photos or will force photographers to relinquish their copyrights in exchange for letting them take photos. And if there is a violation and the venue has money, they may go after the venue.

Hence, the disclaimer about seeing your images.

khunpapa · Aug 9, 2019

MinAZ said:
I've read at certain venues where they have photography policies that include verbiage stating that the management, staff, and security have the right to for any reason whatsoever request inspection of your photos. If the photos are deemed inappropriate, the Event Manager or Head of Security may immediately delete the offending photos. They may then ban you from taking further photos and kick you our or call the authorities.

At certain venues where they have personal belonging policies that include verbiage stating that the management, staff, and security have the right to for any reason whatsoever request inspection of your bags and body. If the belongings are deemed inappropriate, the Event Manager or Head of Security may immediately remove the offending objects. They may then ban you from going in and kick you our or call the authorities.

~~~

The airport vs the bottle of water, nail cutter, shampoo, etc, etc.

===

You enter their area of influence. If their influence does not contradict the laws, they have their full authority.

If you're not satisfied, leave their area. That's all. Simple.

Mark_A · Aug 10, 2019

MinAZ said:
I've read at certain venues where they have photography policies that include verbiage stating that the management, staff, and security have the right to for any reason whatsoever request inspection of your photos. If the photos are deemed inappropriate, the Event Manager or Head of Security may immediately delete the offending photos. They may then ban you from taking further photos and kick you our or call the authorities.

..

Or is there some higher right that prevents them from doing so? This is quite a concern because as you can imagine, it is quite easy for the event to hide these terms in the fine print.

I think if you are photographing on private property they may have rights which no one would have if you were photographing on public property.

And shopping malls are normally private property.

Mark_A

tbcass · Aug 10, 2019

Mark_A said:
I think if you are photographing on private property they may have rights which no one would have if you were photographing on public property.

And shopping malls are normally private property.

Mark_A

That's an iffy area. It's private property with public access so laws may be different.

JRP64 · Aug 10, 2019

tbcass said:
Give them the backup copy for deletion and they probably don't even know you have 2.

I don't think that would work as I actually seen a security personal looking over the shoulder making sure the person deleted the images from his camera's memory card. Then I heard him say is that it? The person reply "yes". You better be is all I heard next. I normally don't listening in on conversations but I couldn't help it for the person who was taking the pictures looked really frazzled.

--
https://www.miniaturephotographer.com/blog.php

tbcass · Aug 10, 2019

JRP64 said:
tbcass said:

Give them the backup copy for deletion and they probably don't even know you have 2.

Click to expand...

I don't think that would work as I actually seen a security personal looking over the shoulder making sure the person deleted the images from his camera's memory card. Then I heard him say is that it? The person reply "yes". You better be is all I heard next.

Why wouldn't it work? Delete the photos. The Gestapo says "is that it". You say yes and you're done. I certainly wouldn't be intimidated.

HRC2016 · Aug 12, 2019

No way would I show my images to security or anyone else!

Of course, I don't try to be a jerk and sneak in a camera, etc., where it's not allowed.

I don't think a bouncer is going to try to wrestle your camera. The facility has a lot to lose.

tcg550 · Aug 12, 2019

There are a whole lot of depends.

If I just wanted move on I might delete the photos. If I were in a confrontational mood I might tell them to call the police so we could straighten it out.

Anyone can assert rights, real or imagined, but that doesn't mean it's legal.

That being said I normally don't take photos if a venue tells me I can't.

Alex Ethridge · Aug 12, 2019

HRC2016 said:
I don't think a bouncer is going to try to wrestle your camera.

Naive!

YouTube has some examples of "security" overstepping the limit of their authority, sometimes confiscating personal property by force, assaulting and battering private citizens, even following them outside their restricted working areas onto public property to do so.

In one case, I even saw one guy taking pictures from a public sidewalk assaulted by a Federal Marshal. It was caught on video and the local police went inside the Federal building, cuffed the Marshal and took him to jail the same day.

Making your kind of assumption can get you hurt.

Alex Ethridge · Aug 12, 2019

tcg550 said:
There are a whole lot of depends.

If I just wanted move on I might delete the photos. If I were in a confrontational mood I might tell them to call the police so we could straighten it out.

Anyone can assert rights, real or imagined, but that doesn't mean it's legal.

That being said I normally don't take photos if a venue tells me I can't.

Good advice.

Knowing the paranoia of people/venues/public parks/museums today, I ask if I am restricted concerning photography. If I am, I don't buy.

If I wasn't advised before the purchase, I demand a refund.

MinAZ · Aug 12, 2019

Alex Ethridge said:
tcg550 said:

There are a whole lot of depends.

If I just wanted move on I might delete the photos. If I were in a confrontational mood I might tell them to call the police so we could straighten it out.

Anyone can assert rights, real or imagined, but that doesn't mean it's legal.

That being said I normally don't take photos if a venue tells me I can't.

Click to expand...

Good advice.

Knowing the paranoia of people/venues/public parks/museums today, I ask if I am restricted concerning photography. If I am, I don't buy.

If I wasn't advised before the purchase, I demand a refund.

Note that in the case of the particular venue where I got that info, photography is actually allowed as long as it is not being used commercially. What the venue is claiming is the right to search and delete photos if the venue deems necessary. Assumption being that in most cases it will let you keep the photos (but you know what they say about assumptions).

Can venues really make you delete your photos?

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