61MP Nikon Z8 incoming…

Or just slowly put Nikon out of business. It's a real problem for Nikon if a major competitor always gets first access to the sensors you're using in your products and you can basically never have any sort of sensor advantage over Sony because you buy all your sensors from them.
36 MP D800/D800E/D810. Nikon released a high res camera well before Sony. 45 MP D850/Z7. Again, better sensor than in Sony products of the time. So Sony puts out a newer sensor in a couple of their bodies. So what.

At the end of the day one camera is a Nikon and one camera is a Sony. Not very hard for me to choose between them regardless of the sensor.

--
Mike Dawson
 
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I wonder if it'll be a do it all kind of camera like D850...
I don't think the D850 is a do it all Camera....it is not optimized for :

- Sports and Wild life (high action)

- Astro Photography ( unless you stack or use a tracker)

- Night sky/Milky way ( unless you stack or use a tracker)


Other than that, its a great Camera....
 
n/t
 
Not sure what you meant by that title. But, per pixel DR is not what determines photo DR. When you add more pixels, you can accept a drop in per pixel DR and still keep overall photo DR the same because of the noise benefit of having more pixels. We've known that for a long time.

Small pixels do make PDAF cells on sensor a bit more difficult as each PDAF cell has a lower signal to noise ratio. This is why Nikon touts a bit better low-light AF for the Z6 than the Z7. So, it will remain to be seen how Sony's low-light AF fairs on the new high res sensor.
 
61MP Nikon Z8 incoming… using the same Sony A7R IV sensor?

At this point, one has to wonder, when/if Sony is going to buy Nikon?
Or just slowly put Nikon out of business. It's a real problem for Nikon if a major competitor always gets first access to the sensors you're using in your products and you can basically never have any sort of sensor advantage over Sony because you buy all your sensors from them.
There's more to a camera (system) than just a sensor (component).
Yes, but the sensor is the single most important component.
If that were true shouldn't Canon have gone out of business long ago?
And, to Nikon's current disadvantage, they are behind Sony in some of the other important areas such as mirrorless AF (which also depends upon the sensor, along with other tech).
Nikon still has a lot going for them, esp right out of the gate. I agree on AF, and if they can catch up in that area soon I don't think sourcing sensors from Sony will mater much if at all.
 
61MP Nikon Z8 incoming… using the same Sony A7R IV sensor?

At this point, one has to wonder, when/if Sony is going to buy Nikon?
Or just slowly put Nikon out of business. It's a real problem for Nikon if a major competitor always gets first access to the sensors you're using in your products and you can basically never have any sort of sensor advantage over Sony because you buy all your sensors from them.
There's more to a camera (system) than just a sensor (component).
Yes, but the sensor is the single most important component.
I think that is increasingly less and less the case as we have been able to get outstanding results for many years now. The bottom line for a 61mp sensor compared to our current 45mp is that at the nominal 300dpi output you can have an image 4" wider.Though I am all for higher MP cameras and will buy the rumoured Z8 over the Sony.

As I also still have my Sony A7rIII the advances of the Sony in other areas are far more notable to me. Especially the claimed better build quality , weather resistance , and ergonomics an area where Sony has lagged well behind Nikon and Canon
And, to Nikon's current disadvantage, they are behind Sony in some of the other important areas such as mirrorless AF (which also depends upon the sensor, along with other tech).
Compared to Sony's first two generation products the Nikons are better in every single way. Compared to the III gen products Nikon has better build quality, better weather resistance , far better ergonomics , better IBIS, better video. Sony third gen cameras upped the game regarding AF and of course the two card issue for some. AF performance in mirrorless can be improved over time with firmware Sony's A9 has had 5 firmware updates .
Except you're forgetting that AF sensors are now built into the main image sensor and that's a major key feature of MILC (where Nikon is behind).
Interesting that the A73 has far more AF points than the z6 (and even the A7r3), but the z7 has more than the A7r3. The resolution isn't an exact match either between each equivalent body. It looks as if Nikon has some customization going on on top of the base Sony sensor architecture, or they're not using the exact same sensor model.
And, it appears that Nikon's AF software is also behind.

Why are you comparing Sony's older products with Nikon's current products? Compare Nikon's current products with Sony's current products. That's the state of the market. Sony is improving. Nikon is improving, but Sony is ahead and still moving quickly. So, unless you have some evidence that Nikon is advancing faster than Sony is (such evidence does not exist yet), I don't get your point. It sounds like you're just "hoping" that Nikon will zoom past Sony with much better software.

In case you're wondering, I'm not a Sony fan. I own probably $20k of Nikon equipment and want them to succeed. I've just been surveying the state of MILC products since Nikon entered the market and if I were buying from scratch right now, I'd probably buy Sony as they seem ahead and I don't yet see any evidence that that will change any time in the near future.
The appeal is there, but Nikon is just getting started, not even a year into it.
 
61MP Nikon Z8 incoming… using the same Sony A7R IV sensor?

At this point, one has to wonder, when/if Sony is going to buy Nikon?
Disappointing. I know Nikon needs to compete with Sony at a certain level, but in this case I think the smart move for Nikon would be to focus their meagre resources elsewere since I really don't think there's a large market for a camera with a 61MP sensor.
Most of this is due to marketing. A 61Mp "flagship" sends a message to the ill informed that Sony are the market leader, whether people actually need 61Mp is a moot point. Most will generally not need 61Mp, heck 16:9 8k screens will only require 33Mp, but for some applications 61Mp for cropping bird photos may be of benefit. As Thom Hogan points out, pixel shift etc will be a better tool for many landscapers if they want billboard sized prints. As some have pointed out, ease of use, ergonomics, AF ability etc, etc will become more important.

I have stated elsewhere that more and more Mp is becoming less and less important to more and more people. The days of the Mp race is over except in the marketing department.
 
In the FF MILC world, Sony was there long before Nikon and holds technical advantages even today and is the supplier of the single more important component in the camera. It is not an advantage to be buying your most important component from a major competitor. There's no way that's a good thing. Sony isn't the only sensor manufacturer. Nikon has made cameras with sensors sourced elsewhere. I don't know the current state of that landscape. If it's the case that Sony is the only competitive source for a FF sensor, then Nikon has no choice unless they enter the sensor business themselves or fund someone else to develop competitive products (both of which are probably beyond their resources). I'm just saying that it does not help Nikon's competitiveness that Sony gets first to market with every new sensor technology. In dSLRs, Nikon had enough other advantages that they could live with that. In MILC, it's a meaningful market problem.

If I was betting on which camera company would be around in the long term, I'd probably put both Sony and Canon ahead of Nikon right now in confidence. Nikon has not yet built a defensible beachhead in MILC. Nikon is on their first generation for FF mirrorless so we'll have to see what they do with 2nd and 3rd generations to be long-term relevant. I'm hoping they succeed, but at the moment am quite unsure and always lagging a major competitor with new sensor tech is a disadvantage.
Apple buys their screens, arguably the most important component of a smartphone, from Samsung, their biggest competitor. Has been this way forever.
 
Not sure what you meant by that title. But, per pixel DR is not what determines photo DR. When you add more pixels, you can accept a drop in per pixel DR and still keep overall photo DR the same because of the noise benefit of having more pixels. We've known that for a long time.

Small pixels do make PDAF cells on sensor a bit more difficult as each PDAF cell has a lower signal to noise ratio. This is why Nikon touts a bit better low-light AF for the Z6 than the Z7. So, it will remain to be seen how Sony's low-light AF fairs on the new high res sensor.
My experiences with the different bodies (d500, d750, d800e and d850) tells me otherwise...If you really think that is true then why is it that The Phase One Sensor is rated accordingly? Larger Pixels and higher resolution.... I believe that you might be inferring to the fact that certain bodies Enhance Dynamic Range by playing some tricks with internal Software enhancement, which is probably why Sony calls their A7RIV Dynamic range as - Enhance Dynamic Range of 15 Stops!. You can Enhance Dynamic range of almost all Digital images by stacking multiple shots like in Astrophotography. I believe that to gain the best Dynamic range of a sensor is to have the best technical advantage in the pixel level - which currently is in the BSI CMOS sensors Larger pixels but that needs to be balanced with the right resolution so as to get the best viewing size of the final image... I would be surprised if NASA would replace their current D5s (20 Mpx.) in the ISS with the A7RIV in the future... I would venture to say that a stacked image from a D5 would have a lot more Dynamic Range than the stacked image from an A7RIV (60 Mpx)..

.BTW larger pixels produces less noise than smaller pixels, but that is another Physics discussion.
 
Not sure what you meant by that title. But, per pixel DR is not what determines photo DR. When you add more pixels, you can accept a drop in per pixel DR and still keep overall photo DR the same because of the noise benefit of having more pixels. We've known that for a long time.

Small pixels do make PDAF cells on sensor a bit more difficult as each PDAF cell has a lower signal to noise ratio. This is why Nikon touts a bit better low-light AF for the Z6 than the Z7. So, it will remain to be seen how Sony's low-light AF fairs on the new high res sensor.
My experiences with the different bodies (d500, d750, d800e and d850) tells me otherwise...If you really think that is true then why is it that The Phase One Sensor is rated accordingly? Larger Pixels and higher resolution.... I believe that you might be inferring to the fact that certain bodies Enhance Dynamic Range by playing some tricks with internal Software enhancement, which is probably why Sony calls their A7RIV Dynamic range as - Enhance Dynamic Range of 15 Stops!. You can Enhance Dynamic range of almost all Digital images by stacking multiple shots like in Astrophotography. I believe that to gain the best Dynamic range of a sensor is to have the best technical advantage in the pixel level - which currently is in the BSI CMOS sensors Larger pixels but that needs to be balanced with the right resolution so as to get the best viewing size of the final image... I would be surprised if NASA would replace their current D5s (20 Mpx.) in the ISS with the A7RIV in the future... I would venture to say that a stacked image from a D5 would have a lot more Dynamic Range than the stacked image from an A7RIV (60 Mpx)..

.BTW larger pixels produces less noise than smaller pixels, but that is another Physics discussion.
+1
 
Apple buys their screens, arguably the most important component of a smartphone, from Samsung, their biggest competitor. Has been this way forever.
And it's driving Apple nuts to do so. They are investing hundreds of millions in alternatives so they don't have to do that in the long run.
 
From what I've seen, it's not as simple as larger pixels = more DR. For example, per Bill Claff's photonstophotos.net site, at lower ISOs the D850 has higher PDR than the D5 or D750. Then of course newer sensor generations have often resulted in better DR and lower noise even with more resolution. I'd take my D850 in low light over my D810, which had a magenta cast over 6400, and I found my D7100 at least no worse at high ISO than my D7000 once the former was reduced to the same size. Personally, I prefer the extra data to work with, though the differences are becoming increasingly less significant in most uses. Just my 2 cents'.
 
Not sure what you meant by that title. But, per pixel DR is not what determines photo DR. When you add more pixels, you can accept a drop in per pixel DR and still keep overall photo DR the same because of the noise benefit of having more pixels. We've known that for a long time.

Small pixels do make PDAF cells on sensor a bit more difficult as each PDAF cell has a lower signal to noise ratio. This is why Nikon touts a bit better low-light AF for the Z6 than the Z7. So, it will remain to be seen how Sony's low-light AF fairs on the new high res sensor.
My experiences with the different bodies (d500, d750, d800e and d850) tells me otherwise...If you really think that is true then why is it that The Phase One Sensor is rated accordingly? Larger Pixels and higher resolution....
The P1 150 MP sensor has exactly the same pixel pitch as the a7RIV, just more pixels.
 
why is it that The Phase One Sensor is rated accordingly? Larger Pixels and higher resolution....
No, larger sebsir
.BTW larger pixels produces less noise than smaller pixels, but that is another Physics discussion.
True, comparing individual pixels. But the physics is that as a whole same size sensors collects the same amount of light regardless of their resolution. This is true as long as there are no losses due to the larger pixel density of a higher resolution sensor. This is pretty much the case for gapless microlens/BSI technologies .
 
From what I've seen, it's not as simple as larger pixels = more DR. For example, per Bill Claff's photonstophotos.net site, at lower ISOs the D850 has higher PDR than the D5 or D750. Then of course newer sensor generations have often resulted in better DR and lower noise even with more resolution. I'd take my D850 in low light over my D810, which had a magenta cast over 6400, and I found my D7100 at least no worse at high ISO than my D7000 once the former was reduced to the same size. Personally, I prefer the extra data to work with, though the differences are becoming increasingly less significant in most uses. Just my 2 cents'.
I believe the difference in the technology used in "older" vs Newer sensors are different. which could account for most if not all the difference in the dynamic range...see below:

4819c72ab1844dd3ba335171265d739d.jpg.png

If I am not mistaken, the D850 uses the BSI CMOS technology (#1) and the older Sensors of the D5 and the D750 uses the Front-side Illumination technology sensors... There are other factors involved like dual gain amplifiers for each pixels which can affect Dynamic Range..

What would really be interesting is if any manufacturer use a BSI CMOS sensor technology with a lower Mpx (like 24 MPX used in the Z6) in a DSLR....That would be an Ideal Sensor for me...I really do not like EVFs....Why you ask?

Why I don’t like Mirrorless….

Most non pros get the most benefit from Mirrorless by allowing them to shoot very well without having the long and intimate experience of shooting with complete control MANUALLY. I do not consider myself a pro, but I want complete control over my shots and I mostly shoot manually. One of the things I dislike about the Mirrorless system is the EVF. When I tested the Sony A7III, A7rIII and the A9 as well as the Z6, I felt that I was disconnected to my subject, especially in high action shots. By that, I mean that there is a discernable LAG between real time and what I am seeing in the view finder! Because of that I will probably never get comfortable with mirrorless system...To me mirrorless is just a better phone camera!
 
61MP Nikon Z8 incoming… using the same Sony A7R IV sensor?

At this point, one has to wonder, when/if Sony is going to buy Nikon?
Or just slowly put Nikon out of business. It's a real problem for Nikon if a major competitor always gets first access to the sensors you're using in your products and you can basically never have any sort of sensor advantage over Sony because you buy all your sensors from them.
Nikon has always been able to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony does. I hope that continues.
I wonder if that is still relevant . Due to much better IQ the difference is maybe there but not noticeable any more for the majority of use cases
 

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