TN Args
Forum Pro
Yes, exactly my thoughts about my dp0.
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FP -> Foveon make your suggestions to Sigma here
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By removing the cine-still button one could fit a hotshoe on top.
Guctony
Active member
Actually there is a trend that bigger is the better as it seems camera industry hit a wall of technological ball barrier. For my understanding the decrease in sales is not related to phone over camera dispute or sort. There is no longer leaping improvements in digital camera technology. what ever the case my very old OMD 10 versus A7R2 does not really provide enough justification in terms of image quality upgrade. All camera suppliers are selling more or less the same thing. there is no longer need to change camera every one or two years to catch up with technical advance. People are happy with what they have on the prosumer and professional arena.
So I feel that bring us to higher ISO and megapixel trend as that is the only real thing changing over the last 10 year game. Otherwise I still have more and mature functionality on OMD-10 over A7R2.
Having said above there is no waning interest in market over Foveon over 40+megapixel cameras. But If we want foveon to survive we need to deliver a killing blow where no content creator or supply chain or camera supplier can come up with excuses to undermine the efficiency of Foveon sensor not the Sigma camera.
That is for me to go medium format mirrorless foveon camera with same adaptability as FP and even accepting legacy lenses like Pentax 67 or Mamiya 645 etc.
I do not feel Sigma will not have difficulty to design and produce medium format lenses also. It might proved hard to penetrate to market but as long time ago Sigma Ceo mentioned SIGMA's survival depend on diversity of their product range.
Regards
Guctony
Active member
Yeah I totally agree with you. If they choose to penetrate medium format market faster than FF market it has a high advertising and attention incentive. It might not bring big sales in the beginning but Like FP it will bring the name of SIGMA infront. in a market segment that is difficult for main stream players to counter.
Regards
So you call me irrational for buying the dp cameras?
TN Args
Forum Pro
Personally I think the 35mm Foveon camera will be designed to work in a balanced and comfortable way with the top-end glass like the new 35mm f/1.2 Art 1,090g, the 105mm f/1.4 Art 1,645g, 135mm f/1.8 1,130g, and the 70-200mm f/2.8 1,805g. Wouldn't you want to use it with them? Don't you want the best?
I don't think that a little body with cramped layout is going to cut the mustard, even if you bolt on a great big grip. The fp has an 80% use case built around a video rig.
You guys might be dreaming about a 35mm dp camera, but that is a different project altogether than what is needed for a 35mm Foveon ILC body designed for ultimate stills photography with big, premium glass.
Trying to meet both dp and ILC needs with a modified fp body is going to be somewhat of an abortion. Let's do it right.
Take another look at those lenses. The right body is going to be more like a Panasonic S1 or Leica SL, with Sigma weirdness added.
cheers
Johan Borg
Veteran Member
Maybe under the assumption that an equally small ILC+lens combination existed.
A dp would still be lighter and that leaf shutter is otherwise medium format territory.
Well I like their "weirdness" as it means it will be a camera that works great for the photographer using it. Unlike certain other company called S***
yes a dp camera like the fp would be very interesting consept. Alternatively if one could get more lenses small like the 45mm and have an MILC dp camera.
I was hoping Sigma would first update the sd Quattro with an L mount keeping everything else the same. I think the Quattro body is really rather good, uncomplicated and intuitive to use, as are all Sigma camera bodies in my view. Unless there is some radically different concept coming with the new FF Foveon they'd do well to make the new body an evolution.
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
Unless all that talk about difficulty in manufacturing a full frame sensor was actually about manufacturing a medium format sensor.
Sigma doesn't have any investment in medium format lenses that I'm aware of & as we often discuss, the cameras are just meant to support the sale of the lenses.
But let's say Sigma could develop these lenses - that the ART lenses could easily be modified for larger than full frame without significant investment. Sigma has already said that the lenses sit in the warehouse waiting for the lens mount - the lens mount can be added at the final stage of assembly. This significantly reduces Sigma's inventory risk as they don't have to predict which lens mount will be the most successful & run the risk of making too much of the one that doesn't sell and not enough of the one that does.
So let's say Sigma can easily produce a handful of ART lenses for a medium format camera without significant investment & that maybe medium format was part of the target for the ART series all along, and we just thought Sigma liked to make big heavy lenses to punish photographers backs.
Then yes - I could see a medium format Foveon. Or even a medium format dp series Foveon. Yamaki san has always stated that the target for Foveon was "medium format quality" - what if that wasn't just hyperbole and was actually a product road map.
It would be very risky for Sigma for a few reasons.
- They need to make the L-Mount Alliance successful as a vehicle for their lenses and cameras. Taking attention away from the L-Mount would jeopardize the company's future.
- They would need to invest significant R&D into designing lenses for medium format.
- These cameras would be necessarily more expensive & appeal to a smaller audience (those wiling to buy into a totally new lens system).
saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
Agree with that. There is no clear reason to upgrade anymore. Just look at what Ricoh has done with the GR3. Sure there was a bump from 16 to 24 megapixels - that was to be expected. But their innovation was in making the camera even smaller and with IBIS.
Fuji released an incrementally higher megapixel count line for the X-Mount, but their innovation is in video & of course a new film simulation profile.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Google Trends says that interest in Foveon tracks with interest in digital photography - so waning interest.
[ATTACH alt="(Canon was under "computer manufacturer" so I didn't include them) "]2429523[/ATTACH]
(Canon was under "computer manufacturer" so I didn't include them)
Indeed interest in Foveon for the past 5 years has been flat, spiking just this week (probably the fp has everyone wondering what a Foveon is/all the foveonistas wondering if the fp had one or if Sigma had let them down).
So - I don't know if we can actually state what the "interest" is for Foveon sensors other than what Google Trends tells me.
It's not about difficulty, it's about cost and directing limited resources.
If you were the CEO of Sigma would you direct your staff to invest time and money into something as risky as lenses for a new lens mount whose market entirely depends on a camera whose sales are unknown? Whose predecessor was a niche camera, and will be made even more niche by making it full frame?
If you were the CEO of Sigma would you direct your staff to invest time and money into something as risky as a new camera whose sales depends on people's willingness to buy into a totally new lens mount?
Diversity is good, but this is too many eggs in one basket.
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saltydogstudios
Veteran Member
I suspect they'll depart from the sd Quattro just to generate a bit of hype and not confuse customers - new sensor needs a new camera design.
But I do hope that it's sd Quattro like.
JackM
Veteran Member
Those were different times. Today you have many choices that will get you the same or better resolution as a 20.3mp Foveon, and very similar overall image quality. I would say lobbying for fixed lens cameras today when it seems obvious that the forthcoming Foveon will be a MILC is irrational. I would say if Sigma produces both a MILC and a set of fixed lens DP style cameras, choosing the latter would be irrational unless they are significantly smaller.
JackM
Veteran Member
Or even just nearly-as-small.
Pretty sure the Fuji X100 has a leaf shutter. Not that X-Trans can compete with Sigma.
So you say that Sony, Leica and Fuji are stupid for their RX1x Rx10x, Qx and X100x ?
We know there will be a FF camera where we can mount our ART lenses, that doesn't mean one cannot hope for a small body dp FF camera as well some time in the future.
JackM
Veteran Member
Don't put words in my mouth. Those are all single, one-off cameras, not whole series of cameras. The RX10 is a camera for consumers who are not serious about photography who want one camera to do literally everything. The RX10 probably spends a lot of time behind tour bus windows. I wouldn't call the RX1 or the Q rational choices and I don't think they're very popular anyway. Doesn't mean they're bad cameras. You buy them because you simply want them, not because of any unique quantifiable purpose. The X100 is the most compact APS-C 35mm (effective) camera on the market, so it is a rational choice. Its size, focal length, features, and performance cannot be duplicated or approached by any combination of MILC + lens from Fuji or anyone else.
It depends on the size of the forthcoming body and the size of the lenses. If a line of dp cameras could be significantly smaller and more portable than the combination of the FF Foveon body and the corresponding lenses, then sure, dp's could make sense.
With the fp and the 45/2.8 as clues, I don't think there will be a rational need for a line of dp's.
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They are not one off. They keep making new versions over and over. Nobody said dp1, dp2, dp3 etc with FF. dp2 FF would be nice but so would a small fp like camera with small lenses.
Sorry I ment to type RX1R, not RX10
If you haven't used a compact you don't see the advantages.
Of course one buy them because one wants them and they do have unique features which is the reason to get them.
It is not compact compared to Ricoh GR III APS-C
of course it can.
JackM
Veteran Member
They are one off in that they are not part of a whole series of cameras with different focal lengths, like the dp0, dp1, dp2, dp3.
Umm, yeah, that is exactly what this sub-thread is about. DP versions.
Which is what I'm saying. fp with 45/2.8 is already nearly as portable as a DP2M and probably more portable than a DP2Q. Assuming the FFF will be fp sized, there will be no point in DP fixed lens versions.
I had a DP2M and a X100S.
After reviewing camerasize.com, I'll take it back about the RX1R. That's a pretty compact package that you can't approach with any other camera/lens other than a Leica with 35/2 'cron. However the Q doesn't make much sense. An M10 with 28/2 is around the same size. If you're in the market for a Q, you can afford an M10 or M9.
That's 28mm effective, not comparable to the X100.
Oh really, name the camera and lens that gets you 35mm effective, and f/2 on APS-C or f/2.8 on FF, in a package anywhere close to the size of the X100.
Anyway, here's this:
I think that Sigma will not do anything with Medium format, there is too much development and not a big enough market for a foveon based camera which has no lenses. It would probably rely on adapters to use other medium format or FF lenses which fit whatever version of medium format sensor they might dream up.
More likely is a FF foveon which makes the camera a potential competitor to some digital medium format cameras, and probably better than most Bayer high res sensors. (This may be challenged by the Sony a7r4 just released today.
If they produce another version of the SD Q H with a FF sensor and L mount that would still be an interesting product for me, but only if it is $2k or thereabouts. I think the new Sony will compete with this camera with some nice lenses on it.
More likely is a FF foveon which makes the camera a potential competitor to some digital medium format cameras, and probably better than most Bayer high res sensors. (This may be challenged by the Sony a7r4 just released today.
If they produce another version of the SD Q H with a FF sensor and L mount that would still be an interesting product for me, but only if it is $2k or thereabouts. I think the new Sony will compete with this camera with some nice lenses on it.
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