https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62866310
You have to take a video, with the clocks side-by-side (the one on the screen and the EVF/LCD one) and average the difference in a whole bunch of frames.
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You have to take a video, with the clocks side-by-side (the one on the screen and the EVF/LCD one) and average the difference in a whole bunch of frames.
D
Donald B
Guest
Tell that to dpr voting the A9 best sports camera and the em1x looks to be the ultimate car and plane camera period. Sorry the computer must think you carry one like a female and keeps correcting the spelling AI at work
Don
--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
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Jonsi
Veteran Member
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We all agree.
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Why should Don care so much about punctuation when this lea is making all sorts of gross errors in substance, even if she can capitalize, that'd mean she knows about grammar, but not about cameras.Tell that to dpr voting the A9 best sports camera and the em1x looks to be the ultimate car and plane camera period. Sorry the computer must think you carry one like a female and keeps correcting the spelling AI at work
Don
Jonsi
Veteran Member
- Messages
- 6,331
- Solutions
- 6
- Reaction score
- 9,199
Who's Lea ?Why should Don care so much about punctuation when this lea is making all sorts of gross errors in substance, even if she can capitalize, that'd mean she knows about grammar, but not about cameras.Tell that to dpr voting the A9 best sports camera and the em1x looks to be the ultimate car and plane camera period. Sorry the computer must think you carry one like a female and keeps correcting the spelling AI at work
Don
Apparently, some kind of AI related to replies to Jay's post, an she may be behind this very confusing thread where people vote some EVF cameras as best sports, birds and plane cameras, but some others as unusable and disposable trash. The only explanation I can think of is some kind of AI behind scenes mocking us, probably acting through spell checkers to mask herself out.Who's Lea ?Why should Don care so much about punctuation when this lea is making all sorts of gross errors in substance, even if she can capitalize, that'd mean she knows about grammar, but not about cameras.Tell that to dpr voting the A9 best sports camera and the em1x looks to be the ultimate car and plane camera period. Sorry the computer must think you carry one like a female and keeps correcting the spelling AI at work
Don
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Don_Campbell
Senior Member
Wrong, at least for the red dot sight I bought and returned. It had far wider field of view (far less magnification) than the EVF superzoom I was trying to use it with. Also far less magnification than my DSLR with my 150-600 lens. That made the subjects disappear in the red dot and made framing close to impossible. The OVF has the full field of view of the sensor of my DSLR. You're pretty mixed up.The Red Dot and similar finders give the same optical view as does the OVF on DSLRs. So whatever bad you say about them is the same bad you have with your OVF.Red Tails are easy, slow and predictable compared to the birds I shoot.You have a one-track mind. There are great workarounds. I go out regularly walking along the shoreline with my friend who is an avid birder and loves to shoot BIF. He has a Red dot optical finder on his GH5 Panasonic mirrorless camera. His Red Dot finder is especially made for birders to replace the EVF because of the lag. The finder has a wireframe wide view which is actually easier to use than the confined view of a DSLR. My friend is as happy as a lark with his setup for shooting mostly Red Tail Hawks, which can have very unpredictable flight patterns, above the fields along the shoreline.Pick on mirrorless? Oh, come on fella. Stop whining.Yes, whipping boy by those who like to defend DSLRs and brag about having OVFs. All camera types have limitation. FVE lag is not a fatal limitation. There are many workarounds. They have been discussed but those want to pick on mirrorless cameras with EVF can't let go.No, not a "whipping boy." A fact of EVF life that presents a special problem for some kinds of subjects.There have been many techniques discussed. But the discussion has been prolonged to keep the EVF lag as the latest whipping boy.What you and Kiwi have said about "Lee Jay's claim," is deliberately disingenuous and I think you probably know it. Lee Jay and others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame. That is especially true when the fast moving subjects also change direction drapidly and unpredictably. No one denies the ability of EVF cameras to pan and follow moderately moving subjects with predictable trajectories.Lee Jay's claim sparked a number of threads, including this one. If you follow the sequence, it is clear, even though he wasn't mentioned by name in the OP.Th OP never mentioned Lee Jay.Nowhere in this thread did the OP claim DSLRs can't take pictures. That is just something you made up.And taking photos of a timer on a computer monitor sure put that to rest.....
Regardless, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
This thread is about Lee Jay's claim that mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag...
That is just something you made up.
Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story.
Creating a disingenuous strawman argument does this discussion no good to anyone--not even the ML fanboys. It also makes you seem like you only want to engage in argumentation instead of addressing the actual issue of lag. That's also how I interpret your continual conflation of EVF lag with the very different effects of shutter lag, mirror blackout and other issues unrelated to tracking.
If one has a camera with an EVF, it helps one to keep the image within the image field to have a full frame sensor and to use a moderate focal length lens. That is simply overpowering the tracking problem by giving you a smaller image in a wider field but what we're really addressing here is tracking with otherwise similar framing not using different sized frames to assist a viewfinder lag.
The "workarounds" are nothing of the sort. You cannot work around the lag that makes framing more difficult. All the pre-burst stuff is useful if you have things framed. With a lag and an unpredictable and fast moving subject you don't.
I am glad he finds that combination useful. I tried a red dot finder with my SX50 and found it not useful with full zoom out to 1200mm equivalent. I'm happy your friend finds it useful for his purposes. I can imagine that a red dot finder with sufficient magnification and careful sighting-in could help since it is a real-time lagless view. The sight I had was awkward, heavy and too low in magnification to frame things well. I'd rather have a viewfinder that could frame the photo instead of an attached "work around" like the red dot.
Gee, you're starting to sound like a politician I can't avoid on TV. Stop whining, or run for office.
Don_Campbell
Senior Member
My main (by far) wildlife subjects are peregrine falcons, the fastest creatures on earth. I don't have any faith in your ability to understand from an image how fast and unpredictable their flight is. So for a start, while I'm picking out some images, do a google search on the terms: "peregrine falcon 'stoop'" You can see a large number of images of fast moving peregrines among the images shown.well put your money where your mouth is ? come on post one of your so called fast action images.No, I don't think they do cover the issue of fast moving or unpredictable. Gliding birds I've already commented on. They're easy. A taking off prop airplane is predictable, slow and easy to pan. Biplanes? Fast? Come on. A red-tailed hawk taking off is easy as is a red-tailed hawk cruising like the other birds you show. The osprey? It was nearly stationary just before your shot. That's not fast moving and unpredictable. I don't know what your dragon fly was doing but they hover a whole lot and that is easy to shoot.Please understand that I do not wish to be argumentative. But I would appreciate your comments on the resolution and framing of the aircraft, birds and dragonfly images I posted.What you and Kiwi have said about "Lee Jay's claim," is deliberately disingenuous and I think you probably know it. Lee Jay and others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame. That is especially true when the fast moving subjects also change direction drapidly and unpredictably. No one denies the ability of EVF cameras to pan and follow moderately moving subjects with predictable trajectories.Lee Jay's claim sparked a number of threads, including this one. If you follow the sequence, it is clear, even though he wasn't mentioned by name in the OP.Th OP never mentioned Lee Jay.Nowhere in this thread did the OP claim DSLRs can't take pictures. That is just something you made up.And taking photos of a timer on a computer monitor sure put that to rest.....
Regardless, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
This thread is about Lee Jay's claim that mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag...
That is just something you made up.
Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story.
Creating a disingenuous strawman argument does this discussion no good to anyone--not even the ML fanboys. It also makes you seem like you only want to engage in argumentation instead of addressing the actual issue of lag. That's also how I interpret your continual conflation of EVF lag with the very different effects of shutter lag, mirror blackout and other issues unrelated to tracking.
If one has a camera with an EVF, it helps one to keep the image within the image field to have a full frame sensor and to use a moderate focal length lens. That is simply overpowering the tracking problem by giving you a smaller image in a wider field but what we're really addressing here is tracking with otherwise similar framing not using different sized frames to assist a viewfinder lag.
I believe these cover most of the fast moving objects the vast majority of us wish to photograph.
I don't mean to be argumentative but I covered the issue of steady, predictable movement in a previous post. No, I think your images are fine and I have thousands of images of birds flying taken with my Canon SX50 but not doing the wild and crazy things they do in the more interesting situations.
Yes.
Don
With their wings nearly outstretched, peregrines can soar way faster than the soaring of nearly all other birds. When they assume the "cupped wing" form they go even faster, in the "delta form" with wings folded tightly the speed is astonishing and the ability to turn on a dime is still there. All of these show up in the google search I recommend above.
So, look at a few images from the web while I skip over the images of feeding chicks, the fledging of juveniles, mating and fighting in the air with intruding raptors. The fighting with intruders includes some very chaotic action in the air but you'll probably assume it is all stationary so I'll skip some of those.
Check back in a bit. I'll put up some recent high speed flight.
Martin.au
Forum Pro
Not sure what you are trying to prove, considering there are a bunch of difficult bird specialists in the m4/3 forum.
Thanks for the context. I almost got lost but then the context helped a lot. I, No, Yes, Nowhere, Well, Please, What, But...tell it all.
I believe you at this level of hunting, any LAG especially if it is inconsistent with some out of timing frames here and there, and varying lag, and not in the latest best EFV, affects you. Surely, part of it is adjusting to some minimal lag. The other part is reducing the annoying variance in lag (more lag, less lag, more lag, less lag), the skipped frames (few updates, more updates, fewer updates, more updates) and then the killing frames (at certain part in the pipeline, an update is produced, but there's something blocking from finishing the write in the EVF buffer, making it display out of sync). This would be put to the test in high speed AF-C with these falcons. I believe you, because I have experienced this lag in other contexts. I don't think I could have explained this lag to anyone that hadn't used the equipment at this level of demand...all this lag, dropped frames, varying lag, out of timing writes, etc. are invisible to anyone at a different pace. You are operating not at the normal reaction time. Part of the neurons for making these decisions fire instantly...there is no thought. It's a model you built.
Now, even if this makes you frame things 10% worst, or 25% worst. It does require sacrificing zoom power to make sure you get it in the frame. But probably, if this happens to you, it also means your experience is very frustrating. Does it infuriates you that you seem to be set off track, confused or just annoyed? I remember how extremely annoyed I'd be playing extremely short reaction time games. Infuriation would be a mild way to describe it.
However, for cars, planes, normal birds in more normal flight trajectories, I am sure in a newer camera like A9 would be a pleasure to shoot with. It's just when these objects have sudden turns, at very tight tolerances (framing) and you are using your learned "muscle reaction" algorithm, combined with stressing the processor bandwidth (AF-S high for quite some time) that this can show up an full display.
Even the person develops complex neural algorithms which are tuned, and there's absolutely no thinking at all all, and send a very complex set of moves which are all in prediction and catching up with the subject. With a minimal lag, and variance of this lag, all this neural automation crumbles.
However, this means nothing to 99%> of cases, and especially those cases that don't involve a high speed chase at that level of reaction, with the subject doing this unpredictable twists.
Do you sometimes instantly anticipate how the bird flight might change based instinctively on how it's body and winds are exactly shaped in the current frame? If you've built this level of anticipation and prediction in your brain, and the EVF has some variance of lag, missed frames, out of time frames as it pushes 30MP 20 times per second, I believe you until we can have some benchmarks!
Don_Campbell
Senior Member
Kiwi said, "It was Lee Jay claiming mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag. That was actually a lie. Lee Jay made no such claim about all moving objects. You then referred to "Lee Jay's claim" in the context of Kiwi's lie. I called disingenuous but maybe you should have been more specific about what claim you were talking about.Others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame.What you and Kiwi have said about "Lee Jay's claim," is deliberately disingenuous and I think you probably know it. Lee Jay and others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame.Lee Jay's claim sparked a number of threads, including this one. If you follow the sequence, it is clear, even though he wasn't mentioned by name in the OP.Th OP never mentioned Lee Jay.Nowhere in this thread did the OP claim DSLRs can't take pictures. That is just something you made up.And taking photos of a timer on a computer monitor sure put that to rest.....
Regardless, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
This thread is about Lee Jay's claim that mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag...
That is just something you made up.
Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story.
Lee Jay purported over multiple posts to be addressing the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame. It turns out, after much probing by me and evasive answers by him, that he was actually talking about the issue of the lag from the LCD screen on his DSLR causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame.
Lee Jay claims that an LCD screen on a DSLR is exactly the same as an EVF on a mirrorless camera and that by stating he was using an EVF he was not misleading anyone (despite multiple other members obviously gaining the impression that he was using an EVF on a mirrorless camera). He may be right and it may be that they are one and the same for all intents and purposes, but nobody has demonstrated that.
I wasn't the one that created the disingenuous strawman.
You did say in another post that "Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story." I've been following the whole EVF lag story here for what seems like years and have seen most of Lee Jay's posts on the subject. I think your statement is wrong with regard to the simple issue that EVF lag makes framing difficult for fast and erratically moving subjects. Since that is the major point of Lee Jay's posts on this topic I think your criticism is overwrought.
Which is mostly what Lee Jay is saying and the ML zealots here won't have even the tiniest agreement on that simple statement of issue.
Good idea.
Sorry if I conflated you with Kiwi. It was because you seemed all in on what Kiwi called "Lee Jay's claim."
Not all of these threads by any stretch of the imagination.
I have no experience with ML cameras. Howeve, I have a career worth of experience designing and building analog and digital electronic instruments for my laboratory research. I know about lag in instrumentation and that includes the lag from light coming from the subject of a photo and going through the electronic steps to get to an image in an EVF or an LCD screen.
I also know from using an EVF in a superzoom. That lag in the SX50 viewfinder makes little difference shooting slow moving birds like in the examples AlwynS gave us.
It's when folks immediately jump to arguments about shutter lag and pre-bursts and miss the reality of viewing that the discussion degrades.
Don_Campbell
Senior Member
I haven't seen the 'difficult bird specialists in the m4/3 forum.' Point out some threads because I am curious and open minded.
I'm not trying to prove anything. Donald B. wanted a photo of what I'm calling a fast bird. I'm calling the fastest bird and fastest creature on earth an example of a fast moving bird.
When I finish starting dinner for my visiting grandchildren i'll put up a couple of images. I'm sure that it will prove nothing to someone like Donald B. who seems desperate to accept AlwynS' nice photos of slow birds as proof that EVF lag is not an issue.
mamallama
Forum Pro
You bought the wrong one. Building an external wide optical viewfinder suitable for tracking fast targets ain't rocket science.Wrong, at least for the red dot sight I bought and returned. It had far wider field of view (far less magnification) than the EVF superzoom I was trying to use it with. Also far less magnification than my DSLR with my 150-600 lens. That made the subjects disappear in the red dot and made framing close to impossible. The OVF has the full field of view of the sensor of my DSLR. You're pretty mixed up.The Red Dot and similar finders give the same optical view as does the OVF on DSLRs. So whatever bad you say about them is the same bad you have with your OVF.Red Tails are easy, slow and predictable compared to the birds I shoot.You have a one-track mind. There are great workarounds. I go out regularly walking along the shoreline with my friend who is an avid birder and loves to shoot BIF. He has a Red dot optical finder on his GH5 Panasonic mirrorless camera. His Red Dot finder is especially made for birders to replace the EVF because of the lag. The finder has a wireframe wide view which is actually easier to use than the confined view of a DSLR. My friend is as happy as a lark with his setup for shooting mostly Red Tail Hawks, which can have very unpredictable flight patterns, above the fields along the shoreline.Pick on mirrorless? Oh, come on fella. Stop whining.Yes, whipping boy by those who like to defend DSLRs and brag about having OVFs. All camera types have limitation. FVE lag is not a fatal limitation. There are many workarounds. They have been discussed but those want to pick on mirrorless cameras with EVF can't let go.No, not a "whipping boy." A fact of EVF life that presents a special problem for some kinds of subjects.There have been many techniques discussed. But the discussion has been prolonged to keep the EVF lag as the latest whipping boy.What you and Kiwi have said about "Lee Jay's claim," is deliberately disingenuous and I think you probably know it. Lee Jay and others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame. That is especially true when the fast moving subjects also change direction drapidly and unpredictably. No one denies the ability of EVF cameras to pan and follow moderately moving subjects with predictable trajectories.Lee Jay's claim sparked a number of threads, including this one. If you follow the sequence, it is clear, even though he wasn't mentioned by name in the OP.Th OP never mentioned Lee Jay.Nowhere in this thread did the OP claim DSLRs can't take pictures. That is just something you made up.And taking photos of a timer on a computer monitor sure put that to rest.....
Regardless, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
This thread is about Lee Jay's claim that mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag...
That is just something you made up.
Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story.
Creating a disingenuous strawman argument does this discussion no good to anyone--not even the ML fanboys. It also makes you seem like you only want to engage in argumentation instead of addressing the actual issue of lag. That's also how I interpret your continual conflation of EVF lag with the very different effects of shutter lag, mirror blackout and other issues unrelated to tracking.
If one has a camera with an EVF, it helps one to keep the image within the image field to have a full frame sensor and to use a moderate focal length lens. That is simply overpowering the tracking problem by giving you a smaller image in a wider field but what we're really addressing here is tracking with otherwise similar framing not using different sized frames to assist a viewfinder lag.
The "workarounds" are nothing of the sort. You cannot work around the lag that makes framing more difficult. All the pre-burst stuff is useful if you have things framed. With a lag and an unpredictable and fast moving subject you don't.
I am glad he finds that combination useful. I tried a red dot finder with my SX50 and found it not useful with full zoom out to 1200mm equivalent. I'm happy your friend finds it useful for his purposes. I can imagine that a red dot finder with sufficient magnification and careful sighting-in could help since it is a real-time lagless view. The sight I had was awkward, heavy and too low in magnification to frame things well. I'd rather have a viewfinder that could frame the photo instead of an attached "work around" like the red dot.
mamallama
Forum Pro
Lee Jay has made statements like you cannot find fast moving objects using the image of an EVF with lag because you are always tracking behind the object. Of course that is true. But you can search for the object without using the EVF image to guide the search.Kiwi said, "It was Lee Jay claiming mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag. That was actually a lie. Lee Jay made no such claim about all moving objects.Others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame.What you and Kiwi have said about "Lee Jay's claim," is deliberately disingenuous and I think you probably know it. Lee Jay and others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame.Lee Jay's claim sparked a number of threads, including this one. If you follow the sequence, it is clear, even though he wasn't mentioned by name in the OP.Th OP never mentioned Lee Jay.Nowhere in this thread did the OP claim DSLRs can't take pictures. That is just something you made up.And taking photos of a timer on a computer monitor sure put that to rest.....
Regardless, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
This thread is about Lee Jay's claim that mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag...
That is just something you made up.
Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story.
Lee Jay purported over multiple posts to be addressing the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame. It turns out, after much probing by me and evasive answers by him, that he was actually talking about the issue of the lag from the LCD screen on his DSLR causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame.
Lee Jay claims that an LCD screen on a DSLR is exactly the same as an EVF on a mirrorless camera and that by stating he was using an EVF he was not misleading anyone (despite multiple other members obviously gaining the impression that he was using an EVF on a mirrorless camera). He may be right and it may be that they are one and the same for all intents and purposes, but nobody has demonstrated that.
I wasn't the one that created the disingenuous strawman.
Don_Campbell
Senior Member
Peregrine falcon assuming several distinct "speed forms" all of which allow it to go very, very fast.
The first level: wings cupped near the body, wing-tips out. Faster than most fast birds its size but just getting started.
The "cup" shape is less apparent from the side but from head-on there is a distinct semi-circular shape to the wing. Faster speed than the form at the top, but still not the form used in the high speed "stoop."
This is pretty close to the full tuck of the high speed stoop. Amazingly, and contrary to earlier assumptions, the high speed form is still quite maneuverable allowing the peregrine to catch agile prey using the combination of speed and maneuverability.
Watching these birds do their "fancy flying" is a joy. Capturing some of it adds to the pleasure.
What I haven't shown is the rapid aerobatic switch from slightly downward high speed flying to going nearly straight down after a loop up followed by a 180 degree downturn. That's been really hard to capture and where I'm photographing these birds there is often a cliff or a ridge line in the way of the full loop to down.
The first level: wings cupped near the body, wing-tips out. Faster than most fast birds its size but just getting started.
The "cup" shape is less apparent from the side but from head-on there is a distinct semi-circular shape to the wing. Faster speed than the form at the top, but still not the form used in the high speed "stoop."
This is pretty close to the full tuck of the high speed stoop. Amazingly, and contrary to earlier assumptions, the high speed form is still quite maneuverable allowing the peregrine to catch agile prey using the combination of speed and maneuverability.
Watching these birds do their "fancy flying" is a joy. Capturing some of it adds to the pleasure.
What I haven't shown is the rapid aerobatic switch from slightly downward high speed flying to going nearly straight down after a loop up followed by a 180 degree downturn. That's been really hard to capture and where I'm photographing these birds there is often a cliff or a ridge line in the way of the full loop to down.
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Don_Campbell
Senior Member
The one I bought had several issues including too much weight compared to the superzoom itself. The whole point is what the camera by itself can do--not what you can add to it to make up for its intrinsic deficiencies. With the MLthe EVF has an issue with viewfinder lag.You bought the wrong one. Building an external wide optical viewfinder suitable for tracking fast targets ain't rocket science.Wrong, at least for the red dot sight I bought and returned. It had far wider field of view (far less magnification) than the EVF superzoom I was trying to use it with. Also far less magnification than my DSLR with my 150-600 lens. That made the subjects disappear in the red dot and made framing close to impossible. The OVF has the full field of view of the sensor of my DSLR. You're pretty mixed up.The Red Dot and similar finders give the same optical view as does the OVF on DSLRs. So whatever bad you say about them is the same bad you have with your OVF.Red Tails are easy, slow and predictable compared to the birds I shoot.You have a one-track mind. There are great workarounds. I go out regularly walking along the shoreline with my friend who is an avid birder and loves to shoot BIF. He has a Red dot optical finder on his GH5 Panasonic mirrorless camera. His Red Dot finder is especially made for birders to replace the EVF because of the lag. The finder has a wireframe wide view which is actually easier to use than the confined view of a DSLR. My friend is as happy as a lark with his setup for shooting mostly Red Tail Hawks, which can have very unpredictable flight patterns, above the fields along the shoreline.Pick on mirrorless? Oh, come on fella. Stop whining.Yes, whipping boy by those who like to defend DSLRs and brag about having OVFs. All camera types have limitation. FVE lag is not a fatal limitation. There are many workarounds. They have been discussed but those want to pick on mirrorless cameras with EVF can't let go.No, not a "whipping boy." A fact of EVF life that presents a special problem for some kinds of subjects.There have been many techniques discussed. But the discussion has been prolonged to keep the EVF lag as the latest whipping boy.What you and Kiwi have said about "Lee Jay's claim," is deliberately disingenuous and I think you probably know it. Lee Jay and others have addressed the issue of EVF lag causing problems in keeping fast moving subjects appropriately in the image frame. That is especially true when the fast moving subjects also change direction drapidly and unpredictably. No one denies the ability of EVF cameras to pan and follow moderately moving subjects with predictable trajectories.Lee Jay's claim sparked a number of threads, including this one. If you follow the sequence, it is clear, even though he wasn't mentioned by name in the OP.Th OP never mentioned Lee Jay.Nowhere in this thread did the OP claim DSLRs can't take pictures. That is just something you made up.And taking photos of a timer on a computer monitor sure put that to rest.....
Regardless, your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
This thread is about Lee Jay's claim that mirrorless cameras can't take photos of moving objects because of EVF lag...
That is just something you made up.
Lee Jay's claim was also based on entirely false premises, but that is another story.
Creating a disingenuous strawman argument does this discussion no good to anyone--not even the ML fanboys. It also makes you seem like you only want to engage in argumentation instead of addressing the actual issue of lag. That's also how I interpret your continual conflation of EVF lag with the very different effects of shutter lag, mirror blackout and other issues unrelated to tracking.
If one has a camera with an EVF, it helps one to keep the image within the image field to have a full frame sensor and to use a moderate focal length lens. That is simply overpowering the tracking problem by giving you a smaller image in a wider field but what we're really addressing here is tracking with otherwise similar framing not using different sized frames to assist a viewfinder lag.
The "workarounds" are nothing of the sort. You cannot work around the lag that makes framing more difficult. All the pre-burst stuff is useful if you have things framed. With a lag and an unpredictable and fast moving subject you don't.
I am glad he finds that combination useful. I tried a red dot finder with my SX50 and found it not useful with full zoom out to 1200mm equivalent. I'm happy your friend finds it useful for his purposes. I can imagine that a red dot finder with sufficient magnification and careful sighting-in could help since it is a real-time lagless view. The sight I had was awkward, heavy and too low in magnification to frame things well. I'd rather have a viewfinder that could frame the photo instead of an attached "work around" like the red dot.
kiwi2
Veteran Member
"The problem with EVF lag is inability to frame while tracking."
www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62856165
Don_Campbell
Senior Member
He didn't say "all moving objects." The context was a series of posts explaining the issue with far more nuance and far more rational thought than you seem capable of. Isolating that sentence from the greater context does nothing positive for the discussion. You do your cause no good to so deliberately misrepresent Lee Jay's point of view. It doesn't make you righteous, it makes you disingenuous and gives you zero credibility.
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kiwi2
Veteran Member
Here is his posts in its entirety...
www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62856123
His "inability to frame while tracking" must mean anything that is moving that you need to track.