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BOCS - Workaround? Do we care?

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BunnyBun26126

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With all the talk of this new BOCS fix possibly having a detrimental colour shift effect in the Aperature and Shutter priority modes...I'm wondering now if its worth sending in my camera for the fix. I'm very happy with the already warm but accurate shots I get with the Aperature and Shutter priority modes.

First off, I want to consider this objectively - is there any reason I'd want to fix the BOCS problem? It only occurs in Auto mode and with the Flash on. So when would I want to use Auto mode? A-ha! Auto is great when you need the LCD to appear brighter so that its easier to take the shot (ie: indoors). And also great when you're letting someone else take the shot (and don't want them complaining how dark the LCD looks :)

So basically Auto mode is good to make it easier to take shots in relatively dark settings.

But there's another evil that gets introduced in Auto mode -- the camera will also increase the ISO (to what degree I'm not sure) in low light situations. So the shots will definely contain more noise than at ISO 100.

So to come back to the original question -- is there a good reason to want to ever use AUTO mode? Being one that wouldn't want anything other than ISO 100 shots, are there any other reasons you'd want to use this 'evil' mode?

Let me know your thoughts on this. :)

BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?

2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to an increased ISO?

3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?

...bb
 
First off, many thanks to Pondria for alerting the group to
the fact that Sony's BOCS "fix" may not be a fix at all.

In that context, BunnyBun's questions are very much on
target.

But first things first. Could it be that other folks who sent
their cameras in got a selective fix, as opposed to a red shift
in all modes? If any others with the "fix" could check their
AP and SP modes for excessive red, and post the results,
that would be very valuable to the rest of us.

If the price of improving Auto color balance is screwing up
AP and SP color balance, then I wouldn't even consider it!

The latter modes are more useful and powerful, because
they give you the ability to control the balance between
ambient light and the flash. Once I was forced into AP/SP
to get away from BOCS, I discovered I really LIKED those
modes. In SP, I can also CHOOSE my own tradeoff between
screen brightness and update rate, which is really nice.

A thought on BunnyBun's question 3: I haven't tried
filtering the 505V flash. However, I have tried using a
Nikon A2 warming filter (common 35mm item) on the lens.
This cures about 50% of the Auto BOCS, while creating
a little extra warmth in AP/SP. Not a bad compromise,
if you need to bounce about between all flash modes.
BunnyBun said:
With all the talk of this new BOCS fix possibly having a
detrimental colour shift effect in the Aperature and Shutter
priority modes...I'm wondering now if its worth sending in my
camera for the fix. I'm very happy with the already warm but
accurate shots I get with the Aperature and Shutter priority modes.

First off, I want to consider this objectively - is there any
reason I'd want to fix the BOCS problem? It only occurs in Auto
mode and with the Flash on. So when would I want to use Auto mode?
A-ha! Auto is great when you need the LCD to appear brighter so
that its easier to take the shot (ie: indoors). And also great
when you're letting someone else take the shot (and don't want them
complaining how dark the LCD looks :)
So basically Auto mode is good to make it easier to take shots in
relatively dark settings.

But there's another evil that gets introduced in Auto mode -- the
camera will also increase the ISO (to what degree I'm not sure) in
low light situations. So the shots will definely contain more
noise than at ISO 100.

So to come back to the original question -- is there a good reason
to want to ever use AUTO mode? Being one that wouldn't want
anything other than ISO 100 shots, are there any other reasons
you'd want to use this 'evil' mode?

Let me know your thoughts on this. :)

BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the
top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how
the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?

2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter
speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to
an increased ISO?

3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the
flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?

...bb
Click to expand...
 
Personally I would be very weary of sending in my camera
for any fix that was not mechanically related, especially
if it is a problem that is easily remedied with a well-known
and 100% efficient workaround ( using AP or SP ).
Why fix something that isn't "broke" and run the risk of
making other things get out of whack in the process? If you
are happy with the camera as is and have adapted to its
shortcomings, consider yourself lucky- keep the
camera and enjoy it. I believe you should send in your camera
for mechanical problems only. This way you avoid the pain and
agony of not knowing in what shape or condition your
camera will be when you get it back. Remember, your camera is
handled by technicians who are human beings and who don't
care about your camera as much as you do. When my S70 was
in the shop ( CCD being replaced ) my wife kept harking me
on how I can let a third party handle my camera without me
being physically there. I'll tell 'ya, it was stressful, she was right,
and I would never want to go through it again.

To all those 505V owners who didn't send in your cameras for
the BOCS fix- don't, I personally don't think it's worth the risk.

just my $.02 US ( or $.03 CND ) worth

Cheers

Frank C.
Old Ed said:
In that context, BunnyBun's questions are very much on
target.

But first things first. Could it be that other folks who sent
their cameras in got a selective fix, as opposed to a red shift
in all modes? If any others with the "fix" could check their
AP and SP modes for excessive red, and post the results,
that would be very valuable to the rest of us.

If the price of improving Auto color balance is screwing up
AP and SP color balance, then I wouldn't even consider it!

The latter modes are more useful and powerful, because
they give you the ability to control the balance between
ambient light and the flash. Once I was forced into AP/SP
to get away from BOCS, I discovered I really LIKED those
modes. In SP, I can also CHOOSE my own tradeoff between
screen brightness and update rate, which is really nice.

A thought on BunnyBun's question 3: I haven't tried
filtering the 505V flash. However, I have tried using a
Nikon A2 warming filter (common 35mm item) on the lens.
This cures about 50% of the Auto BOCS, while creating
a little extra warmth in AP/SP. Not a bad compromise,
if you need to bounce about between all flash modes.
BunnyBun said:
With all the talk of this new BOCS fix possibly having a
detrimental colour shift effect in the Aperature and Shutter
priority modes...I'm wondering now if its worth sending in my
camera for the fix. I'm very happy with the already warm but
accurate shots I get with the Aperature and Shutter priority modes.

First off, I want to consider this objectively - is there any
reason I'd want to fix the BOCS problem? It only occurs in Auto
mode and with the Flash on. So when would I want to use Auto mode?
A-ha! Auto is great when you need the LCD to appear brighter so
that its easier to take the shot (ie: indoors). And also great
when you're letting someone else take the shot (and don't want them
complaining how dark the LCD looks :)
So basically Auto mode is good to make it easier to take shots in
relatively dark settings.

But there's another evil that gets introduced in Auto mode -- the
camera will also increase the ISO (to what degree I'm not sure) in
low light situations. So the shots will definely contain more
noise than at ISO 100.

So to come back to the original question -- is there a good reason
to want to ever use AUTO mode? Being one that wouldn't want
anything other than ISO 100 shots, are there any other reasons
you'd want to use this 'evil' mode?

Let me know your thoughts on this. :)

BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the
top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how
the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?

2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter
speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to
an increased ISO?

3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the
flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?

...bb
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
BunnyBun said:
With all the talk of this new BOCS fix possibly having a
detrimental colour shift effect in the Aperature and Shutter
priority modes...I'm wondering now if its worth sending in my
camera for the fix. I'm very happy with the already warm but
accurate shots I get with the Aperature and Shutter priority modes.

First off, I want to consider this objectively - is there any
reason I'd want to fix the BOCS problem? It only occurs in Auto
mode and with the Flash on. So when would I want to use Auto mode?
A-ha! Auto is great when you need the LCD to appear brighter so
that its easier to take the shot (ie: indoors). And also great
when you're letting someone else take the shot (and don't want them
complaining how dark the LCD looks :)
So basically Auto mode is good to make it easier to take shots in
relatively dark settings.
Click to expand...
Those were exactly the two reasons why I sent it.
BunnyBun26126 said:
But there's another evil that gets introduced in Auto mode -- the
camera will also increase the ISO (to what degree I'm not sure) in
low light situations. So the shots will definely contain more
noise than at ISO 100.
Click to expand...
In AUTO mode, ISO goes up to only 142. In Night mode, it will go up to 300 or more. The noise level at ISO 142 is acceptable to me . I don't expect great shots from flash. It's mainly for parties and such things.
BunnyBun26126 said:
So to come back to the original question -- is there a good reason
to want to ever use AUTO mode? Being one that wouldn't want
anything other than ISO 100 shots, are there any other reasons
you'd want to use this 'evil' mode?
Click to expand...
Besides the two pratical reasons that you and I agree, there is one more factor. I was bothered by the fact that I had a problem that could be fixed. ;-)
BunnyBun26126 said:
Let me know your thoughts on this. :)
Click to expand...
The issue boilds down to your own camera usage pattern. If you take more indoor shots in AP/SP sometimes with tripod, you don't need the fix. If you bring the camera to friends' houses or restaurants, you need the fix. Only you can tell ;-)
BunnyBun26126 said:
BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the
top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how
the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?
Click to expand...
If it needs to go slower than 1/30 at the max aperture.
BunnyBun26126 said:
2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter
speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to
an increased ISO?
Click to expand...
Good question. At the same brighness in dark condition, N+ mode and (A,N) modes images look different even on LCD. N+ images look clean to me , I guess, due to ISO as you speculated. It's simple to test. Goto N mode and aim at reasonably dim object. And switch it to N+ mode. You may see the difference in "cleanness" AP/SP images are same as N+ ones. N+ is basically SP with intelligence.
BunnyBun26126 said:
3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the
flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?
Click to expand...
Yes, I did. This is one of the things that we tried last summer when we encountered the BOCS. I didn't use the real Gel. I used the Scotch tape on the flash window. I used the yellow highliterer pen to color the tape - just one coat. And the reasult was very good ;-)
 
Frank C. said:
Personally I would be very weary of sending in my camera
for any fix that was not mechanically related, especially
if it is a problem that is easily remedied with a well-known
and 100% efficient workaround ( using AP or SP ).
Click to expand...
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the shot. On one occasion just prior to Greg's BOCS repair discovery, I tried getting some indoor shots of three kids who weren't sitting still. I'd just point the camera, guessing at the composition, take the shot, and delete it if their heads were cut off.
Member said:
Why fix something that isn't "broke" and run the risk of
making other things get out of whack in the process? If you
are happy with the camera as is and have adapted to its
shortcomings, consider yourself lucky- keep the
camera and enjoy it. I believe you should send in your camera
for mechanical problems only. This way you avoid the pain and
agony of not knowing in what shape or condition your
camera will be when you get it back. Remember, your camera is
handled by technicians who are human beings and who don't
care about your camera as much as you do.
Click to expand...
After the comments a few months ago about my "war torn F505V", some might suggest they care more ;-))
Member said:
When my S70 was
in the shop ( CCD being replaced ) my wife kept harking me
on how I can let a third party handle my camera without me
being physically there. I'll tell 'ya, it was stressful, she was
right,
and I would never want to go through it again.

To all those 505V owners who didn't send in your cameras for
the BOCS fix- don't, I personally don't think it's worth the risk.
Click to expand...
I agree that everyone has to weigh the risks versus the benefits. If BOCS doesn't present the problem for you that it did for me, then I wouldn't suggest sending it in.
Member said:
just my $.02 US ( or $.03 CND ) worth

Cheers

Frank C.
Click to expand...
Alan

...
 
Hi Alan -

As always, thanks for your inputs! Please see comments/questions
interleaved below...
Alan Hartmann said:
Frank C. said:
Personally I would be very weary of sending in my camera
for any fix that was not mechanically related, especially
if it is a problem that is easily remedied with a well-known
and 100% efficient workaround ( using AP or SP ).
Click to expand...
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to
my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the
shot. On one occasion just prior to Greg's BOCS repair discovery,
I tried getting some indoor shots of three kids who weren't sitting
still. I'd just point the camera, guessing at the composition,
take the shot, and delete it if their heads were cut off.
Click to expand...
What does blue/red shift have to do with framing accuracy?
I'm afraid I don't get the connection.
Member said:
Member said:
Why fix something that isn't "broke" and run the risk of
making other things get out of whack in the process? If you
are happy with the camera as is and have adapted to its
shortcomings, consider yourself lucky- keep the
camera and enjoy it. I believe you should send in your camera
for mechanical problems only. This way you avoid the pain and
agony of not knowing in what shape or condition your
camera will be when you get it back. Remember, your camera is
handled by technicians who are human beings and who don't
care about your camera as much as you do.
Click to expand...
After the comments a few months ago about my "war torn F505V", some
might suggest they care more ;-))
Member said:
When my S70 was
in the shop ( CCD being replaced ) my wife kept harking me
on how I can let a third party handle my camera without me
being physically there. I'll tell 'ya, it was stressful, she was
right,
and I would never want to go through it again.

To all those 505V owners who didn't send in your cameras for
the BOCS fix- don't, I personally don't think it's worth the risk.
Click to expand...
I agree that everyone has to weigh the risks versus the benefits.
If BOCS doesn't present the problem for you that it did for me,
then I wouldn't suggest sending it in.
Click to expand...
Have you checked to see if you now have excess red shift
in the AP/SP modes? It would be good to know this.
Right now, we don't know whether Pondria's problems in
that regard are typical or exceptional.
Member said:
Member said:
just my $.02 US ( or $.03 CND ) worth

Cheers

Frank C.
Click to expand...
Alan

...
Click to expand...
 
OK, as I reported in another thread, the AF seems to be improved by the new firmware. I would send it just for AF fix, even if I'm not sure about BOVS fix ;-)
BunnyBun said:
With all the talk of this new BOCS fix possibly having a
detrimental colour shift effect in the Aperature and Shutter
priority modes...I'm wondering now if its worth sending in my
camera for the fix. I'm very happy with the already warm but
accurate shots I get with the Aperature and Shutter priority modes.

First off, I want to consider this objectively - is there any
reason I'd want to fix the BOCS problem? It only occurs in Auto
mode and with the Flash on. So when would I want to use Auto mode?
A-ha! Auto is great when you need the LCD to appear brighter so
that its easier to take the shot (ie: indoors). And also great
when you're letting someone else take the shot (and don't want them
complaining how dark the LCD looks :)
So basically Auto mode is good to make it easier to take shots in
relatively dark settings.

But there's another evil that gets introduced in Auto mode -- the
camera will also increase the ISO (to what degree I'm not sure) in
low light situations. So the shots will definely contain more
noise than at ISO 100.

So to come back to the original question -- is there a good reason
to want to ever use AUTO mode? Being one that wouldn't want
anything other than ISO 100 shots, are there any other reasons
you'd want to use this 'evil' mode?

Let me know your thoughts on this. :)

BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the
top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how
the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?

2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter
speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to
an increased ISO?

3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the
flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?

...bb
Click to expand...
 
Member said:
Pondria wrote:
In AUTO mode, ISO goes up to only 142. In Night mode, it will go up
to 300 or more. The noise level at ISO 142 is acceptable to me .
I don't expect great shots from flash. It's mainly for parties and
such things.
Click to expand...
Of all people, I would have thought you would be quite finicky about anything other than pure ISO 100 shots. :)
Member said:
Member said:
BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the
top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how
the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?
Click to expand...
If it needs to go slower than 1/30 at the max aperture.
Click to expand...
But theoretically, if the flash is on, it really doesn't need to bump up the ISO even if the aperature and shutter is maxed out at 2.8 and 1/30 - the flash should still create the proper exposure without ISO adjustment right? So the question still stands... at what (low) exposure levels does the camera start to think that it needs to increase the ISO to compensate for low EV values? There should be some formula, like perhaps for every EV step below what 2.8 and 1/30 can handle, it might bump up the ISO by a small factor. I'm assuming there's a linear formula for this.

Maybe it just adjusts the ISO primarily for the reasons of having a brighter LCD in AUTO? Its a good hypothesis, I think. :)
Member said:
Member said:
2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter
speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to
an increased ISO?
Click to expand...
Good question. At the same brighness in dark condition, N+ mode
and (A,N) modes images look different even on LCD. N+ images look
clean to me , I guess, due to ISO as you speculated. It's simple
to test. Goto N mode and aim at reasonably dim object. And switch
it to N+ mode. You may see the difference in "cleanness" AP/SP
images are same as N+ ones. N+ is basically SP with intelligence.
Click to expand...
The N+ images will look brighter due to the lower shutter speed, but theoretically they should be the same noise free images as those taken in N mode (and AP/SP for that matter) since they're all ISO 100. Only the A mode should show noise being introduced in darker conditions.

I did some experimenting today (in the day but in a dim room) and at the point where the camera still thinks there is enough light to take the shot at 2.8 and 1/30 the LCD brightness for both A and AP/SP are the same brightness. Only when the ambient light drops below what 2.8 and 1/30 can handle does the A mode LCD level appear brighter. Which leads me to believe the mechanism that the F505V uses to create the brighter LCD through one of two things:
1. If using shutter speeds lower than 1/30th (in S and N+ modes)
2. If using ISO values greater than 100 (only in A mode)

So we can only benefit from a brighter LCD by either having a very steady hand and using slower than 1/30th exposures OR we suffer with higher than ISO 100 pictures.

Too bad we can't temporarily bump up the ISO just to get a good focus or composition, and then have the shot taken at ISO 100. Wonder if any of the other digicams out there work in the same way?
Member said:
Member said:
3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the
flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?
Click to expand...
Yes, I did. This is one of the things that we tried last summer
when we encountered the BOCS. I didn't use the real Gel. I used the
Scotch tape on the flash window. I used the yellow highliterer pen
to color the tape - just one coat. And the reasult was very good ;-)
Click to expand...
Now that I think of it, I like Old Ed's suggestion of the "warming" Nikon A2 filter better than using a coloured flash overlay. Since the whole shot will be affected by BOCS when in A mode, by only covering the flash we would only be warming up the subject matter that is within flash distance. Anything else out of flash range woud still be affected by BOCS.

Oh, a new question just came up. Does BOCS rear its ugly head in the same way when using the SONY HVL-1000 External Flash unit? My guess is yes. I would assume for SLAVE triggered non-Sony flashes, BOCS would still be there too (in Auto mode), right?

Food for thought. :)

...bb
 
Alan,
Alan Hartmann said:
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to
my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the
shot. On one occasion just prior to Greg's BOCS repair discovery,
I tried getting some indoor shots of three kids who weren't sitting
still. I'd just point the camera, guessing at the composition,
take the shot, and delete it if their heads were cut off.
Click to expand...
What I do sometimes is flip the mode to Twilight+ while composing, and when I'm happy with what I see, I simply flip back to AP mode without moving the camera and take the shot. Seems to work better than the guess 'n pray method. :)
Member said:
After the comments a few months ago about my "war torn F505V",
some might suggest they care more ;-))
Click to expand...
I want to officially take credit for that description of your camera. Guess its not fitting anymore though now that you've gotten it repaired.

Happy Snapping!

...bb
 
Old Ed said:
As always, thanks for your inputs! Please see comments/questions
interleaved below...
Alan Hartmann said:
Frank C. said:
Personally I would be very weary of sending in my camera
for any fix that was not mechanically related, especially
if it is a problem that is easily remedied with a well-known
and 100% efficient workaround ( using AP or SP ).
Click to expand...
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to
my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the
shot. On one occasion just prior to Greg's BOCS repair discovery,
I tried getting some indoor shots of three kids who weren't sitting
still. I'd just point the camera, guessing at the composition,
take the shot, and delete it if their heads were cut off.
Click to expand...
What does blue/red shift have to do with framing accuracy?
I'm afraid I don't get the connection.
Click to expand...
Sorry. What I meant was: to work around BOCS, I was not in auto mode but shutter or aperture priority (don't remember), so the image on the LCD is very dark. If I had been shooting a fixed subject, it probably would have been OK, but with kids running around and a barely visible display, it was a problem

....
Old Ed #28367 said:
Have you checked to see if you now have excess red shift
in the AP/SP modes? It would be good to know this.
Right now, we don't know whether Pondria's problems in
that regard are typical or exceptional.
Click to expand...
I've been pretty busy, and haven't really had a chance to exercise the camera much this week, hopefully tomorrow. The initial test I did with the "fixed" camera didn't seem to emphasize the red's as much as Pondria's shots, though.

Alan
 
Old Ed,
Old Ed said:
Old Ed #28367 said:
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to
my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the
shot. On one occasion just prior to Greg's BOCS repair discovery,
I tried getting some indoor shots of three kids who weren't sitting
still. I'd just point the camera, guessing at the composition,
take the shot, and delete it if their heads were cut off.
Click to expand...
What does blue/red shift have to do with framing accuracy?
I'm afraid I don't get the connection.
Click to expand...
I think he's just saying that now that he can take AUTO mode shots (and thus have the brighter LCD), he doesn't have to be cutting off heads as often anymore. :)
Old Ed #28367 said:
Have you checked to see if you now have excess red shift
in the AP/SP modes? It would be good to know this.
Right now, we don't know whether Pondria's problems in
that regard are typical or exceptional.
Click to expand...
This AP/SP ROCS scares me! But Pondria's initial findings that the focus might be improved might be worth the fix. The jury's still out on this.
 
Pondria said:
OK, as I reported in another thread, the AF seems to be improved by
the new firmware. I would send it just for AF fix, even if I'm not
sure about BOVS fix ;-)
Click to expand...
Is there a new "BOVS" problem now??? Aaaaaauurrrgh!!! :)

Yup, I'm awaiting further word from the others that sent in for the fix to confirm that the focus is indeed much improved. I might be able to stomache the warm AP/SP/N+ shots if a larger number of them are in focus. :)

...bb
 
OK, here is summary as I recall.

(1) AUTO mode: ISO will be raised up to 142, if 1/30 at Max aperture is not enough.
(2) N mode: Same as AUTO but max ISO is 300+.
(2) SP and AP: ISO stays at 100.
(3) N+ mode: ISO stays at 100.

For another issue, it seems to me that the camera don't consider flash at all for exposure calculations. So whether the flash is on or not, in AUTO mode, {A,S,ISO} are set just for the given lighting condition. Then flash may adjust its strength according to the distance. I am not sure about this. But this is my impression so far.
BunnyBun said:
BunnyBun26126 said:
Pondria wrote:
In AUTO mode, ISO goes up to only 142. In Night mode, it will go up
to 300 or more. The noise level at ISO 142 is acceptable to me .
I don't expect great shots from flash. It's mainly for parties and
such things.
Click to expand...
Of all people, I would have thought you would be quite finicky
about anything other than pure ISO 100 shots. :)
BunnyBun26126 said:
BunnyBun26126 said:
BTW, just a few questions if you happen to know the answer off the
top of your head :)

1. What's the exposure curve used by the camera to determine how
the ISO is bumped up during Auto mode?
Click to expand...
If it needs to go slower than 1/30 at the max aperture.
Click to expand...
But theoretically, if the flash is on, it really doesn't need to
bump up the ISO even if the aperature and shutter is maxed out at
2.8 and 1/30 - the flash should still create the proper exposure
without ISO adjustment right? So the question still stands... at
what (low) exposure levels does the camera start to think that it
needs to increase the ISO to compensate for low EV values? There
should be some formula, like perhaps for every EV step below what
2.8 and 1/30 can handle, it might bump up the ISO by a small
factor. I'm assuming there's a linear formula for this.
Maybe it just adjusts the ISO primarily for the reasons of having a
brighter LCD in AUTO? Its a good hypothesis, I think. :)
BunnyBun26126 said:
BunnyBun26126 said:
2. In Twilight+ we see the LCD brighter due to slower shutter
speeds. In Auto mode, are we seeing the brighter LCD solely due to
an increased ISO?
Click to expand...
Good question. At the same brighness in dark condition, N+ mode
and (A,N) modes images look different even on LCD. N+ images look
clean to me , I guess, due to ISO as you speculated. It's simple
to test. Goto N mode and aim at reasonably dim object. And switch
it to N+ mode. You may see the difference in "cleanness" AP/SP
images are same as N+ ones. N+ is basically SP with intelligence.
Click to expand...
The N+ images will look brighter due to the lower shutter speed,
but theoretically they should be the same noise free images as
those taken in N mode (and AP/SP for that matter) since they're all
ISO 100. Only the A mode should show noise being introduced in
darker conditions.

I did some experimenting today (in the day but in a dim room) and
at the point where the camera still thinks there is enough light to
take the shot at 2.8 and 1/30 the LCD brightness for both A and
AP/SP are the same brightness. Only when the ambient light drops
below what 2.8 and 1/30 can handle does the A mode LCD level appear
brighter. Which leads me to believe the mechanism that the F505V
uses to create the brighter LCD through one of two things:
1. If using shutter speeds lower than 1/30th (in S and N+ modes)
2. If using ISO values greater than 100 (only in A mode)
So we can only benefit from a brighter LCD by either having a very
steady hand and using slower than 1/30th exposures OR we suffer
with higher than ISO 100 pictures.

Too bad we can't temporarily bump up the ISO just to get a good
focus or composition, and then have the shot taken at ISO 100.
Wonder if any of the other digicams out there work in the same way?
BunnyBun26126 said:
BunnyBun26126 said:
3. Has anyone successfully used red/orange acetate partly over the
flash to compensate for BOCS in Auto/Flash mode?
Click to expand...
Yes, I did. This is one of the things that we tried last summer
when we encountered the BOCS. I didn't use the real Gel. I used the
Scotch tape on the flash window. I used the yellow highliterer pen
to color the tape - just one coat. And the reasult was very good ;-)
Click to expand...
Now that I think of it, I like Old Ed's suggestion of the "warming"
Nikon A2 filter better than using a coloured flash overlay. Since
the whole shot will be affected by BOCS when in A mode, by only
covering the flash we would only be warming up the subject matter
that is within flash distance. Anything else out of flash range
woud still be affected by BOCS.

Oh, a new question just came up. Does BOCS rear its ugly head in
the same way when using the SONY HVL-1000 External Flash unit? My
guess is yes. I would assume for SLAVE triggered non-Sony flashes,
BOCS would still be there too (in Auto mode), right?

Food for thought. :)

...bb
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, I meant BOCS ;-)

For AF, I am pretty sure. As I was in deep trouble with AF, I had a few typical set-ups that AF consistently fail. I tried the set-ups again to find that AF now consistently works better. It can be still fooled but much more acceptable now.
BunnyBun said:
Pondria said:
OK, as I reported in another thread, the AF seems to be improved by
the new firmware. I would send it just for AF fix, even if I'm not
sure about BOVS fix ;-)
Click to expand...
Is there a new "BOVS" problem now??? Aaaaaauurrrgh!!! :)

Yup, I'm awaiting further word from the others that sent in for the
fix to confirm that the focus is indeed much improved. I might be
able to stomache the warm AP/SP/N+ shots if a larger number of them
are in focus. :)

...bb
Click to expand...
 
Alan Hartmann said:
Frank C. said:
Personally I would be very weary of sending in my camera
for any fix that was not mechanically related, especially
if it is a problem that is easily remedied with a well-known
and 100% efficient workaround ( using AP or SP ).
Click to expand...
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to
my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the
shot.
Click to expand...
whoops, I forgot for a second we are talking about the 505V
  • no viewfinder. But I re-iterate- I wouldn't send the 505V in
unless I was 100% sure Sony's "BOCS" fix was the correct one.
Sometimes these fixes are initiated by service ppl far away from
Sony's proven technical staff ( ie: 1st order engineers )
somewheres back in Nippon. For all those who haven't sent
their cameras in- don't and wait to see how things unfold
and thank those who were courageous enuff to take the
dive ( ie: Pondria and others )

Frank C.
 
BunnyBun said:
Alan Hartmann said:
I didn't really consider this a 100% efficient workaround, due to
my inability to see the image on the LCD well enough to frame the
shot. On one occasion just prior to Greg's BOCS repair discovery,
I tried getting some indoor shots of three kids who weren't sitting
still. I'd just point the camera, guessing at the composition,
take the shot, and delete it if their heads were cut off.
Click to expand...
What I do sometimes is flip the mode to Twilight+ while composing,
and when I'm happy with what I see, I simply flip back to AP mode
without moving the camera and take the shot. Seems to work better
than the guess 'n pray method. :)
Click to expand...
If I could have told the kids to just freeze for a few seconds while I did that, it might have worked ;-)
BunnyBun26126 said:
BunnyBun26126 said:
After the comments a few months ago about my "war torn F505V",
some might suggest they care more ;-))
Click to expand...
I want to officially take credit for that description of your
camera. Guess its not fitting anymore though now that you've
gotten it repaired.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but just tonight I messed it all up with that yicky velcro to reattach my Extend-A-View, so it's on the road to being war torn again. Just like it's owner ;-)))
BunnyBun26126 said:
Happy Snapping!
Click to expand...
Likewise...
BunnyBun26126 said:
...bb
Click to expand...
Alan
 
I'm back. You guys have had an interesting weekend, I see.

Just a few comments/questions:
Member said:
(2) N mode: Same as AUTO but max ISO is 300+.
Click to expand...
I don't think I've ever seen the F505V take a shot with an ISO higher than 282. I've never seen an ISO higher than 300, to my recollection.
Member said:
Then flash may adjust its strength according to the
distance. I am not sure about this. But this is my impression so far.
Click to expand...
This is also my impression. Getting the focus correct seems to affect the power of the flash, but I have not performed definitive experiments... yet.

One thing at a time.... :)
 
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