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EVF "lag" tests REQUIRED in (ML) REVIEWS ???

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Don_Campbell said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
Click to expand...
For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.
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For the second time in a week I've found myself referring to the famous statement attributed to Thomas Cardinal Wolsey, "Be very, very careful what you put in that head, because you will never, ever get it out."

A whole group of mirrorless fans have "learned" something they read somewhere about "shutter lag." Whenever the word "lag" shows up in comments about mirrorless their reflex response swings into support the level of "shutter lag" present or not in mirrorless cameras. Someone put "shutter lag" into their head and it reflexively comes out as an argument on the totally different subject of EVF lag.

It is a common form of something akin to brain damage which could be called "information damage." Once the idea takes root, rooting it out takes acquisition of new knowledge, flexibility and thinking. Unfortunately the reflex usually overpowers those.
Click to expand...
And worse is that EVF-lag can be problematic both before the FIRST shot, but again after blackout when/if you need to take a SECOND (+) shots, (because you must "re-acquire" a moving subject again.

An experienced panner w/ SLR/dSLR could still retain a moving-subject in center of frame ... but EVF-lag means you are BEHIND the moving subject and must "catch-up" to re-center.
 
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
Click to expand...
But can you do it if IN A PLANE -- (pulling 15g's) ???
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No one can pull 15g's without becoming a puddle.
 
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Lee Jay said:
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don
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I follow this channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/RedRCLive
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off road on carpet = boring, i left our club for that reason (I used to be club champion),off road is dirt and more driver skill. havnt raced for 18 months off road and to much cheating in touring car racing.

Don
Click to expand...
Cars are boring to drive.
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Try driving them into concrete-walls .... (= not boring) .....

That was my job until I realized you had to be a DUMMY to do it .... (and quit for a safer job in X-RAY / Nuclear Radiation).

They tried to talk me out of quitting.... they said I was the best DUMMY they ever had -- and that i had natural attributes for the job.

But it was the most "FUN" job I ever had.

We did all kinds if crazy s-h-i-t like (full-pedal) "breaking" @ 120mph and to (FULL) turn-stop @ 70mph, (to see if car would "roll"l.

We drove through side-winds of 100mph from a mounted R-2800 aircraft-engine.

We tested the first airbags back in 1969.

And tested 4 government-ordered ESV (Experimental Safety Vehicles @ $2M each in 1970 dollars), and our goal was a head-on collision @ 55mph/ea (110mph closing-speed), AND EVERYONE SURVIVE.

It was a (banked-oval) track about 1-mile north of Deer Valley Airport in Phoenix AZ. (you can see the track and crashed-cars on Google Earth)

Company then was called Dynamic Science, (I think now called Exodyne).

Darn -- I sure miss that (dummy) job, (and the doctor says I am doing much better).
 
Last edited:
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
Click to expand...
But can you do it if IN A PLANE -- (pulling 15g's) ???
Click to expand...
What plane pulls 15 Gs ? A minute at 10g will kill ya.
 
Jonsi said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
Click to expand...
But can you do it if IN A PLANE -- (pulling 15g's) ???
Click to expand...
What plane pulls 15 Gs ? A minute at 10g will kill ya.
Click to expand...
Yeah ... I think the "reclined" seat in F-16 can help up to +9, (but not sustained).
 
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yep ... he does seem to have to-many "sames" there.

BUT ... could be done w/ red-dot or optical-frame sight.
New Day Rising said:
New Day Rising said:
same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.

--
Lee Jay
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yeah,
Click to expand...
So how can it be "same camera, same lens"?
Lee Jay said:
and the lag-free sequence has far superior tracking with the plane virtually dead center the entire time, while the video has the planes all over the frame.

--
Lee Jay
Click to expand...
 
[No message]
 
PhotoTeach2 said:
Jonsi said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
Lee Jay said:
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
Click to expand...
But can you do it if IN A PLANE -- (pulling 15g's) ???
Click to expand...
What plane pulls 15 Gs ? A minute at 10g will kill ya.
Click to expand...
Yeah ... I think the "reclined" seat in F-16 can help up to +9, (but not sustained).
Click to expand...
I've seen R/C airplanes pull 50g's. It looks like a tennis ball getting hit by a racket.
 


















This is the result of viewfinder lag with the V2. I have recently bought a Olympus E-1II and hope this effect will be much reduced.



--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
 
PhotoTeach2 said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yep ... he does seem to have to-many "sames" there.
Click to expand...
Too many? In a test, everything should be held as constant as possible except for the independent variable you are testing which, in this case, is lag.
PhotoTeach2 said:
BUT ... could be done w/ red-dot or optical-frame sight.
Click to expand...
If those are necessary, it shows lag matters - which it does.

But those sites are ineffective at helping you to determine zoom position since they don't show you framing.
 
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yeah,
Click to expand...
So how can it be "same camera, same lens"?
Click to expand...
Because I have a dSLR, which has an OVF and the ability to attach an EVF.
 
John Sheehy said:
mamallama said:
Human response lag is in additional to the machine response lag. I described machine response lag.
Click to expand...
Human response lag and EVF lag are apples and oranges in some contexts.

This is not just about "WHEN", but "WHERE"; as in, where is the subject?

With EVF delay, you lose track of the subject more often. Pre-burst will not capture anything useful 0.3 seconds ago, if the subject was not in front of the lens 0.3 seconds ago, while you were frantically searching for it, or before you even noticed it was missing!

Mechanical delay, human response, and EVF delay only add in like units if the subject being in the frame is a given fact.
Click to expand...
your figure is way off.

Don
 
PhotoTeach2 said:
Donald B said:
Wu Jiaqiu said:
Donald B said:
Wu Jiaqiu said:
Donald B said:
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
Click to expand...
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
Click to expand...
sorry i forgot you own sloooow cameras.:-)

Don
Click to expand...
23daa8ba43f24c7ab8927a7867d72807.jpg

:D
Click to expand...
i have one at 1.90 😀 I was a bit trigger happy . Tomorrow I’m going to shoot a 60 frame video wth my em52 with my em12 shooting the screen and see what the actual evf lag is.
Click to expand...
I assume you realize the only way to derive EVF-lag from this test is to compare the average of two series of only looking at the monitor.... and another looking at EVF/LCD.
Click to expand...
yes im quite aware how to do the test what do you think it will be ?
PhotoTeach2 said:
PhotoTeach2 said:
i expect it will be about how fast you are :-) wish I didn’t have to work so much I’m missing out on all the fun and experiments. A mate shoots birds with a v15 pf300 he loves it and his images are first class. He prefers it over his d500 with a 300 vr2 2.8.

Don
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
 
Wu Jiaqiu said:
panning test, this was taken with a Nikon 1 V2 a few years ago, nothing is cropped and is probably 10/15fps, i had no problem keeping up with a jet aircraft and filling the frame, i can do this with OVF and EVF but i don't shoot bursts anymore, i don't multiple shots of the same thing.

a gif i made of the images, if you can't do this with an EVF it's your technique
Click to expand...
The plane is moving in a simple, unsurprising trajectory. No way for the delay to cause a problem, once you get it in the viewfinder.
 
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yeah,
Click to expand...
So how can it be "same camera, same lens"?
Click to expand...
Because I have a dSLR, which has an OVF and the ability to attach an EVF.
Click to expand...
 
Donald B said:
John Sheehy said:
mamallama said:
Human response lag is in additional to the machine response lag. I described machine response lag.
Click to expand...
Human response lag and EVF lag are apples and oranges in some contexts.

This is not just about "WHEN", but "WHERE"; as in, where is the subject?

With EVF delay, you lose track of the subject more often. Pre-burst will not capture anything useful 0.3 seconds ago, if the subject was not in front of the lens 0.3 seconds ago, while you were frantically searching for it, or before you even noticed it was missing!

Mechanical delay, human response, and EVF delay only add in like units if the subject being in the frame is a given fact.
Click to expand...
your figure is way off.
Click to expand...
What figure? It was clearly a number pulled out of a hat. I didn't measure anything.

The point is that pre-burst doesn't help if the subject is not in the frame at the time that the saved frames were exposed, and EVF delay can make it more likely that you do lose the subject.
 
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yeah,
Click to expand...
So how can it be "same camera, same lens"?
Click to expand...
Because I have a dSLR, which has an OVF and the ability to attach an EVF.
Click to expand...
Please explain. What is the EVF you attach to your 7D?
Click to expand...
Hoodman Custom Finder Kit.
 
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
New Day Rising said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
Donald B said:
Lee Jay said:
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
Click to expand...
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Click to expand...
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
Click to expand...
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
Click to expand...
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Click to expand...
Yeah,
Click to expand...
So how can it be "same camera, same lens"?
Click to expand...
Because I have a dSLR, which has an OVF and the ability to attach an EVF.
Click to expand...
Please explain. What is the EVF you attach to your 7D?
Click to expand...
Hoodman Custom Finder Kit.
Click to expand...
 
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