B&H arbitrarily charges 2% for some lenses shipped to Canada?

I ordered many Canon SLR lenses (EF and EF-S) and some cameras from B&H shipped to Canada using their pre-paid tax and duties shipping service. Everything was mostly fine, no duties, only tax. Please know the difference between duties aka tariffs and taxes. As far as I know there are no duties on most photo equipment imported to Canada.

Recently I ordered my first Panasonic mirroless lens and was charged a 2% duty. I thought that was weird - no duties for DSLR lenses but 2% duty for mirrorless?..

I went to the CBSA website: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/trade-commerce/tariff-tarif/2019/menu-eng.html , pulled the latest Customs Tariff complete PDF file with 1616 pages but only 4.2MB, searched for lenses and all I could find that the tariff was 0%.

Then I added some lenses to cart on B&H and checked the Duties & Taxes (they show them separately). What I found was that when I had Canon EF lenses (DSLR) in my cart, there were no duties. When I had RF lenses (mirrorless), there was a 2% duty.

But then I added some Sony DSLR (not mirrorless) and Sigma for Nikon DSLR lenses and saw 2% duty as well. The logic that only mirrorless lenses incur duties faded.

Anybody knows what's going on? Do they charge incorrect duty and nobody complained? Camera equipment is duty-free when imported to Canada. When I wrote to them I got an incomprehensible response from someone who didn't know the difference between duties and taxes.

Some references: http://www.photoprice.ca/article/duty-on-camera-equipment

And from page 1410 of the big file I linked above:

"90.02 Lenses, prisms, mirrors and other optical elements, of any material, mounted, being parts of or fittings for instruments or apparatus, other
than such elements of glass not optically worked.
-Objective lenses:
9002.11 - -For cameras, projectors or photographic enlargers or reducers
9002.11.10 - - -For colour television cameras or colour video cameras;
For enlargers making negatives or positives of a width exceeding 10 cm and a length exceeding 12.5 cm;
For photographic cameras;
For use in the manufacture of projectors;
To be employed in the commercial production of video tape productions, cinematographic films (motion picture films), animated films or multi-image shows

-Free"

Pov2 said:

Anybody knows what's going on? Do they charge incorrect duty and nobody complained? Camera equipment is duty-free when imported to Canada. When I wrote to them I got an incomprehensible response from someone who didn't know the difference between duties and taxes.

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Possibly I can determine what's going on. Knowing your order numbers would help. At the very least knowing exactly which items were in these orders and the province to which they were shipped would be useful.

BTW, if the charge is duty or customs or other cross-border fees, those go to Canada, not to B&H.

henryp said:

Pov2 said:

Anybody knows what's going on? Do they charge incorrect duty and nobody complained? Camera equipment is duty-free when imported to Canada. When I wrote to them I got an incomprehensible response from someone who didn't know the difference between duties and taxes.

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Possibly I can determine what's going on. Knowing your order numbers would help. At the very least knowing exactly which items were in these orders and the province to which they were shipped would be useful.
BTW, if the charge is duty or customs or other cross-border fees, those go to Canada, not to B&H.

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Thanks for responding promptly. Your profile says "no private messages", so I suppose it's OK to post the order number here. It's 1057759841. The lens was Lumix G Vario 14-140mm f/3.5-5.6 II ASPH. POWER O.I.S. B&H #PA1414035562. This was the first time I was charged duty on a lens.

The province is Ontario but that should be irrelevant as duties are federal. The 13% tax was always correctly charged and it's not a problem, only the 2% duty and only on the lens, not the other items. If you start adding various lenses to the cart like I did and check duties and taxes in the cart you will see that some lenses incur duties (listed separately after clicking on the question mark) and some don't.

If it is truly a mistake I hope you will be able to fix the system, so it won't charge duties for these items in the future.

I understand that even erroneous charges go to Canada but as any government they will gladly accept money by mistake and won't return it until a dispute is filed.

Could it be because the Canadian dollar is worth less than the US dollar?

Pov2 said:

Thanks for responding promptly. Your profile says "no private messages",

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It also says For e-mail, PLEASE use: [email protected].

Pov2 said:

so I suppose it's OK to post the order number here. It's 1057759841. The lens was Lumix G Vario 14-140mm f/3.5-5.6 II ASPH. POWER O.I.S. B&H #PA1414035562. This was the first time I was charged duty on a lens.

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When I put the lens into a shopping cart on our site and indicated Ontario as the destination it did tell me there's
Details of Duties & Taxes
Duties:$11.96
HST:$79.29
Brokerage:$1.00
Total:$92.25

We do not make these calculations internally, nor are they arbitrary (a poor and pejorative word choice IMO). We have engaged a company whose international reputation is pristine to handle these calculations for us. Of course, they are not perfect so I will ask our liaison here to have them review this.

henryp said:

Pov2 said:

Thanks for responding promptly. Your profile says "no private messages",

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It also says For e-mail, PLEASE use: [email protected].

henryp said:

so I suppose it's OK to post the order number here. It's 1057759841. The lens was Lumix G Vario 14-140mm f/3.5-5.6 II ASPH. POWER O.I.S. B&H #PA1414035562. This was the first time I was charged duty on a lens.

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When I put the lens into a shopping cart on our site and indicated Ontario as the destination it did tell me there's
Details of Duties & Taxes
Duties:$11.96
HST:$79.29
Brokerage:$1.00
Total:$92.25

We do not make these calculations internally, nor are they arbitrary (a poor and pejorative word choice IMO). We have engaged a company whose international reputation is pristine to handle these calculations for us. Of course, they are not perfect so I will ask our liaison here to have them review this.

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Sorry. I explained my chain of thoughts in the OP. First I thought that only mirrorless lenses are charged duties and not (D)SLR lenses. Then I found that some DSLR lenses are charged duties and some are not. The word "arbitrary" naturally came to mind.

For example, no duties for Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM Lens. No duties for Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG OS HSM Art Lens for Nikon F. But 2% duty for Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2 Lens for Nikon F. All of them are of the same type, made in Japan. Doesn't make sense...

Maybe your website is supplying wrong harmonized codes to whatever is calculating duties. I couldn't find any tariffs for photo lenses in the official document I linked above. I may be wrong after all as I had to use search in that 1600 page document. But the lenses mentioned above should be in the same category for duties.

Henry, did you hear anything regarding this? I just tested with the three lenses I mentioned in the post above and I still get duties for one of them but not for the other two. This can't be right because they are identical for customs purposes.

Pov2 said:

Henry, did you hear anything regarding this? I just tested with the three lenses I mentioned in the post above and I still get duties for one of them but not for the other two. This can't be right because they are identical for customs purposes.

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Maybe try this as Henry requested 'For e-mail, PLEASE use: [email protected].' This really is a matter with which he is trying to assist you. He is more likely to see the e-mail.

araudan said:

Pov2 said:

Henry, did you hear anything regarding this? I just tested with the three lenses I mentioned in the post above and I still get duties for one of them but not for the other two. This can't be right because they are identical for customs purposes.

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Maybe try this as Henry requested 'For e-mail, PLEASE use: [email protected].' This really is a matter with which he is trying to assist you. He is more likely to see the e-mail.

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It's not a matter of assisting me. My order is complete. I had accepted the incorrect (in my opinion supported by the above customs documentation) charge and never asked for refund. It's a matter of properly charging everyone including me in the future and a properly working web store.

Besides, we started the communication here and it's logical to continue it here to avoid confusion. Henry has my order number and can respond by email if he thinks so, but this matter benefits all Canadians if they ever read this thread.

Pov2 said:

"90.02 Lenses, prisms, mirrors and other optical elements, of any material, mounted, being parts of or fittings for instruments or apparatus, other
than such elements of glass not optically worked.
-Objective lenses:
9002.11 - -For cameras, projectors or photographic enlargers or reducers
9002.11.10 - - -For colour television cameras or colour video cameras;
For enlargers making negatives or positives of a width exceeding 10 cm and a length exceeding 12.5 cm;
For photographic cameras;
For use in the manufacture of projectors;
To be employed in the commercial production of video tape productions, cinematographic films (motion picture films), animated films or multi-image shows

-Free"

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If you only read the first line of 9002.11.10 : "For colour television cameras or colour video cameras", then you would automatically end up at '9002.11.90 00 Other', which is indeed 2%.

I suspect an incorrect analysis when searching for the code at the time of first requiring it, usually (but not always) when it first comes into the initial importer's inventory. I worked with these codes for a long time and know how easy it is to misread them.

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

richiebee said:

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

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Interesting and informative.


Cheers,
Doug

richiebee said:

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

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Can you ask your wife if she would be kind enough to supply us with the two distinct codes for the two types of lenses - film or digital. I am unable to determine a distinct code for lenses solely for digital still cameras.

richiebee said:

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

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Sorry, but it is sad that a customs broker doesn't seem to know her job. Read my OP, there is a link to the official document that I also cited. It clearly states "Lenses..." "For photographic cameras" and "For colour television cameras or colour video cameras". It never mentions film anywhere besides "cinematographic films (motion picture films), animated films" where "film" has a different sense.

Lenses for "photographic cameras" and "colour video cameras" fall in the same category and are duty free. The cameras can be film or digital, or something else uninvented yet but as long as they take photographs and/or videos the lenses for them should be duty free. One example of lenses that should have 2% duty are lenses for surveillance cameras, I think.

If what you wrote is indeed how customs interprets the government tariff schedule it's time to see my MP because it's just wrong. And I doubt that's how it is because I listed three lenses that serve the same purpose as an example and two of them don't incur duties but one does. Quote from my earlier post: "For example, no duties for Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM Lens. No duties for Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG OS HSM Art Lens for Nikon F. But 2% duty for Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2 Lens for Nikon F. All of them are of the same type, made in Japan. Doesn't make sense..."

Interesting that 5 people upvoted your post without even looking at the tariff schedule or reading my quote from it. Fortunately, public opinion doesn't change the law.

P.S. And if one thinks broadly tariffs exist to protect local manufacture. Canada doesn't manufacture photographic/video lenses or cameras. They should be duty free.

EDIT: Here is another example of this inconsistency. Canon RF lenses incur 2% duty. Let's say they can't be used on a film camera, that's why. But Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 Lens for Canon RF, Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 Lens for Canon RF, and Meike MK-50mm f/1.7 Lens for Canon RF are for the same mount and can't be used on a film camera either. But they are duty free.

Doug J said:

richiebee said:

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

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Interesting and informative.

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Except it's incorrect.

Pov2 said:

richiebee said:

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

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Sorry, but it is sad that a customs broker doesn't seem to know her job.

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Once again you go in full attack mode. This is not civil

Pov2 said:

Read my OP, there is a link to the official document that I also cited.

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But that link is dead, 404

Pov2 said:

It clearly states "Lenses..." "For photographic cameras" and "For colour television cameras or colour video cameras". It never mentions film anywhere besides "cinematographic films (motion picture films), animated films" where "film" has a different sense.

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We have now the company that does the background work for B&H and one person [admittedly unknown to us] saying you've not got it right. My money is on them, not you. Maybe you should take this up with Canadian customs.

Pov2 said:

---- Doesn't make sense..."

Interesting that 5 people upvoted your post without even looking at the tariff schedule or reading my quote from it. Fortunately, public opinion doesn't change the law.

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Show us the law then

Pov2 said:

P.S. And if one thinks broadly tariffs exist to protect local manufacture. Canada doesn't manufacture photographic/video lenses or cameras. They should be duty free.

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'Should' does not come into it

Pov2 said:

@OP

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IT’S B&H! They’ll take care of it, and if they were in error they’ll make it right!

Did B&H ever confirm what their broker/forwarder said about this?

Pov2 said:

Doug J said:

richiebee said:

I had a discussion with my wife about this (she is a Canadian customs broker, who used to work in imports, now does consulting), and she says film camera lenses are duty free, but lenses designed specifically for other purposes including digital cameras, have 2% duty. End use doesn’t matter, so if it’s a lens that CAN be used on a film camera, it’s duty free and if it can only be used on a digital camera (an example would be Nikon Z mount lenses - there being no film cameras with a Z mount), the duty is 2%.

Remember that the customs tariff wasn’t designed specifically for this case. The definition of a photographic camera for the purpose of the tariff is one that takes film. Technically the kens should have been designed for use with film cameras to make it duty free but you would likely be able to successfully argue it as duty free if it CAN be used on a film camera even if it was designed for digital. Mount adapters (such as one that would allow a z mount lens on an f mount camera does not change the classification.

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Interesting and informative.

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Except it's incorrect.

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Some lenses may or may not be incorrectly classified, this doesn't mean that the explanation is wrong, or that it's B&H's fault, arbitrary or that the OP's wife doesn't know what she's talking about.

I expect B&H is using classifications established by the World Customs Organization. I suggest you discuss this with B&H to learn how the lenses in question are classified and if they are using the assigned classifications. I don't see how anyone on these forums can help address the alleged 2% duty issue.


Cheers,
Doug

Keep in mind that when it comes to the law, common sense does not always apply.

For instance, many digital still cameras also take video. Frequently, the recording time is limited to a maximum of 29 minutes and 59 seconds. The reason for the limitation is legal, not technical. If the camera can take a video of 30 minutes or longer, then it falls into a different legal classification and different import duties apply.

From a common sense perspective there isn't much difference between a camera whose firmware limits video recording to 29:59 and a camera without this firmware limitation. From a legal perspective the difference is quite significant.