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Focus Bracketing on A7Riii -- Sony, I'm done waiting!

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Erdal Gumus said:
Dear friends I didn't meant to blame Sony. We are in free market with free customers and free companies.

My complain is that Sony offers amazing bodies which would be even better with some minor add on.

I would like to clarify another issue about R&D. I believe that focus bracketing will extremely easy for Sony to implement. It is a simple command saying take a shot, make 2degree increment, stop take another shot... I am not a programmer, just doing basic Phyton scripts in GIS and I know that running a code on PCB is harder than PC.

I will kindly ask from Magic Lantern volunteers if they can share with me the codes that enabled many Canon EOS cameras to do focus bracketing (I used to own D60 Canon). If not I will ask how hard is to program it and please consider that they managed it by reverse engineering.

On the other hand focus stacking, where combining occurs in the body during interval shots must be very complicated. But most of the people like me would prefer the simple focus bracketing cause we prefer to stack photos in PC via dedicated software for rendering like Zerene Stack or Helicon Focus or Photoshop which offers more flexibility.

Sorry if I disturbed any Sony user. I am not a native speaker so sometimes I over emphasize or misuse words...
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Sony hasn’t shared the commands needed to do this from an external application, and no one has reverse engineered it yet either as far as I can tell.

As you imply it would be very easy to implement an external app if Sony made the API available. Personally I think they will in a while, once they are confident it’s stable. It is a completely new API and releasing it tends to stifle the ability to modify it...

There is a kludgy work around available for both PC and Mac to automatically take the images to be stacked with an external program. Both are available free. Search this forum for focus stacking and you should find the thread with links to the downloads I’m in China using my iPhone right now so finding the link is not so easy for me.
 
lattesweden said:
Aberaeron said:
Sony have not done too badly lately, with significant firmware upgrades available for early and current early release models. Others have been on the ball for years of course and Panasonic and Olympus have also provided upgrades and enhancements including for older m4/3 lenses to accommodate dual image stabilisation in some cases.
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Olympus added focus bracketing to several models in a firmware update some years ago and the E-M1mkI that was the flagship of the time even got the option of in body stacking since it had the CPU power to handle that.
--
Best regards
/Anders
----------------------------------------------------
42 Megapixels is the answer to life, the universe and everything.
Gone in 20 fps.
You don't have to like my pictures, but it would help: http://www.lattermann.com/gallery
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I have no doubt the A7 series cameras would have the power to do in-camera stacking. The I and II series cameras do it already for the Smooth Reflection app.
 
paul wassermann said:
BurpgunChimp said:
paul wassermann said:
Erdal Gumus said:
Consequently the reckless strategy of Sony refusing focus stacking cost me a lot and also made them loose a customer.
Click to expand...
Reckless strategy? Are you kidding me? Can you explain how not having a very niche feature is reckless?
Click to expand...
It isn't that niche and would be pretty standard for landscape photogs. Of course if the camera can't do it, it's not niche, it's impossible.

Sony are really stupid sometimes.
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Really stupid? How so?
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*facepalm*

What do you think you're reading mate? Don't be obtuse.
paul wassermann said:
Reckless? How so? If it is standard why isn't it found on numerous other brands of cameras? I see nothing reckless in not having a feature that a few folks find necessary. Easy fix, buy a camera that has it or wait and complain and hope that Sony eventually realizes how "stupid" and "reckless" some of you think they are.
Click to expand...
Corporate White Knight to the rescue.
 
SQLGuy said:
BurpgunChimp said:
paul wassermann said:
Erdal Gumus said:
Consequently the reckless strategy of Sony refusing focus stacking cost me a lot and also made them loose a customer.
Click to expand...
Reckless strategy? Are you kidding me? Can you explain how not having a very niche feature is reckless?
Click to expand...
It isn't that niche and would be pretty standard for landscape photogs. Of course if the camera can't do it, it's not niche, it's impossible.

Sony are really stupid sometimes.
Click to expand...
Consumers/users are really ignorant sometimes.

Software features are not free to develop or release.
Click to expand...
LOL mate don't try and pretend this is difficult programming. I program all kinds of devices. You're being ridiculous.
SQLGuy said:
waffle waffle garbage crap waffle.
Click to expand...
 
Aberaeron said:
SQLGuy said:
BurpgunChimp said:
paul wassermann said:
Erdal Gumus said:
Consequently the reckless strategy of Sony refusing focus stacking cost me a lot and also made them loose a customer.
Click to expand...
Reckless strategy? Are you kidding me? Can you explain how not having a very niche feature is reckless?
Click to expand...
It isn't that niche and would be pretty standard for landscape photogs. Of course if the camera can't do it, it's not niche, it's impossible.

Sony are really stupid sometimes.
Click to expand...
Consumers/users are really ignorant sometimes.

Software features are not free to develop or release. This division of Sony is in the business of selling cameras and lenses. They have a limited capacity for new feature development for new cameras, and bug fixes and compatibility updates for old cameras. They may or may not budget any regular head count for adding new features to old cameras.

Any update for an existing camera is more expensive than new code for an unreleased model, because it also has to include upgrade testing, possibly from every previous version, and possibly for every type of updater out there (OSX, Windows, at least), as well as have release notes, support guides (internal and external), and user documentation updated (in multiple languages).

As the VP of PM for one of my previous companies was so fond of saying: "If they're working on this, they can't be working on something else." PM is never going to be able to get everything they'd like from engineering. They will prioritize the backlog based on what they think will sell the most cameras. This is a complex ranking system that includes fixing embarrassing defects, adding features that are needed to remain competitive, and adding strategic differentiation features to stay ahead of the competition in some areas, and all sorts of must-have keeping-the-lights on stuff that soaks up a sad but necessary amount of development bandwidth for each new release.

TLDR? Sony's product management would probably love to give you every feature everybody else has, and lots of stuff you've never dreamed of, but they don't have the development bandwidth for that, and, staffing up for it would not be the most efficient way to build value for their stockholders. There's nothing stupid about it... on their side, anyway.
Click to expand...
How do you know all this detail about Sony’s R&D capacity, staffing and priorities? Do you work at their relevant department?
Click to expand...
He's full of it.
 
techjedi said:
Aberaeron said:
SQLGuy said:
BurpgunChimp said:
paul wassermann said:
Erdal Gumus said:
Consequently the reckless strategy of Sony refusing focus stacking cost me a lot and also made them loose a customer.
Click to expand...
Reckless strategy? Are you kidding me? Can you explain how not having a very niche feature is reckless?
Click to expand...
It isn't that niche and would be pretty standard for landscape photogs. Of course if the camera can't do it, it's not niche, it's impossible.

Sony are really stupid sometimes.
Click to expand...
Consumers/users are really ignorant sometimes.

Software features are not free to develop or release. This division of Sony is in the business of selling cameras and lenses. They have a limited capacity for new feature development for new cameras, and bug fixes and compatibility updates for old cameras. They may or may not budget any regular head count for adding new features to old cameras.

Any update for an existing camera is more expensive than new code for an unreleased model, because it also has to include upgrade testing, possibly from every previous version, and possibly for every type of updater out there (OSX, Windows, at least), as well as have release notes, support guides (internal and external), and user documentation updated (in multiple languages).

As the VP of PM for one of my previous companies was so fond of saying: "If they're working on this, they can't be working on something else." PM is never going to be able to get everything they'd like from engineering. They will prioritize the backlog based on what they think will sell the most cameras. This is a complex ranking system that includes fixing embarrassing defects, adding features that are needed to remain competitive, and adding strategic differentiation features to stay ahead of the competition in some areas, and all sorts of must-have keeping-the-lights on stuff that soaks up a sad but necessary amount of development bandwidth for each new release.

TLDR? Sony's product management would probably love to give you every feature everybody else has, and lots of stuff you've never dreamed of, but they don't have the development bandwidth for that, and, staffing up for it would not be the most efficient way to build value for their stockholders. There's nothing stupid about it... on their side, anyway.
Click to expand...
How do you know all this detail about Sony’s R&D capacity, staffing and priorities? Do you work at their relevant department?
Click to expand...
Anyone who has worked in R&D at any company knows that the backlog of feature requests is very long and the available time to implement is limited. Choosing which items to include in your next release is always contentious. Sometimes you want to implement features that are "pleasers", but you need to focus on "dissatisfiers" first. Everyone's feature priority is different, so they do market research to help prioritize for the largest cross-section of consumers.

There is an entire industry devoted to figuring out how to appropriately prioritize R&D backlogs. Here are some of those models:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kano_model

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoSCoW_method

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_delay

http://chrismcspiritt.com/stack-rank/

At the end of the day, if a product doesn't have a feature, its not because they don't care, its because they had other features they felt would be required first for most of their consumers. Companies aren't perfect and sometimes they just fail to deliver what customers want, but its not an arbitrary decision.
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Dude don't call adding focus bracketing R&D - no "research" is needed.
 
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Erdal Gumus said:
I would like to clarify another issue about R&D. I believe that focus bracketing will extremely easy for Sony to implement. It is a simple command saying take a shot, make 2degree increment, stop take another shot...
Click to expand...
You believe right and anyone saying differently is talking nonsense. Hardest part is UI integration.
 
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Paul Barnard said:
As you imply it would be very easy to implement an external app if Sony made the API available. Personally I think they will in a while, once they are confident it’s stable. It is a completely new API and releasing it tends to stifle the ability to modify it...
Click to expand...
Does Sony offer this for any non-industrial camera?
 
At least someone with knowledge of Sony a7(r)III OS and hardware architecture has to plan the feature, check against patents, register patents or buy usage rights, develop the feature , test it and then enroll it to customers. Some hundrets of support ppl around the world have to be informed and teached about the feature.

It's probably some thousands h of manpower and some more $

Just to make some potential customers that have other options already ...

Don't get me wrong. I would love to have focus stacking but it's not 'that easy' to do so.
 
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lattesweden said:
Aberaeron said:
Sony have not done too badly lately, with significant firmware upgrades available for early and current early release models. Others have been on the ball for years of course and Panasonic and Olympus have also provided upgrades and enhancements including for older m4/3 lenses to accommodate dual image stabilisation in some cases.
Click to expand...
Olympus added focus bracketing to several models in a firmware update some years ago and the E-M1mkI that was the flagship of the time even got the option of in body stacking since it had the CPU power to handle that.
Click to expand...
But but everyone keeps saying how it's too expensive and onerous for a massive company like Sony.
 
distel said:
At least someone with knowledge of Sony a7(r)III OS and hardware architecture has to plan the feature,
Click to expand...
Yeah that bit isn't hard at all.
distel said:
check against patents, register patents or buy usage rights,
Click to expand...
Um, all cameras focus. If patents stopped it being developed, then patents aren't fit for purpose.

Reminds me of Camera Conspiracies' running joke of Canon not sharing the patent on a flippy screen with Sony.
distel said:
develop the feature , test it and then enroll it to customers. Some hundrets of support ppl around the world have to be informed and teached about the feature.
Click to expand...
Testing isn't hard. And if you were smart you'd get a robot to do it anyway. Enrolling/teaching one is the same as enrolling/teaching thousands. You make the info available and then they read it. And it is rolled into the next update anyway.
distel said:
It's probably some thousands h of manpower and some more $
Click to expand...
I doubt the thousands of hours part for this feature. And hardly expensive relative to their profits. This isn't difficult software.
distel said:
Just to make some potential customers that have other options already ...

Don't get me wrong. I would love to have focus stacking but it's not 'that easy' to do so.
Click to expand...
 
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BurpgunChimp said:
SQLGuy said:
BurpgunChimp said:
paul wassermann said:
Erdal Gumus said:
Consequently the reckless strategy of Sony refusing focus stacking cost me a lot and also made them loose a customer.
Click to expand...
Reckless strategy? Are you kidding me? Can you explain how not having a very niche feature is reckless?
Click to expand...
It isn't that niche and would be pretty standard for landscape photogs. Of course if the camera can't do it, it's not niche, it's impossible.

Sony are really stupid sometimes.
Click to expand...
Consumers/users are really ignorant sometimes.

Software features are not free to develop or release.
Click to expand...
LOL mate don't try and pretend this is difficult programming. I program all kinds of devices. You're being ridiculous.
BurpgunChimp said:
waffle waffle garbage crap waffle.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I've already said what I did. I'll give you a bit more detail. I was one of the senior PMs for VMware's vRealize Operations suite. This was software with tens of thousands of customers (mostly enterprise level) managing hundreds of thousands of servers and virtualized servers worldwide. I've done a good amount programming, too, but the difficulty of the programming is only a part of the development and release cycle. Even a trivial change that is user facing has a bunch of overhead.

Now, please, tell me more about your professional experience in this area. What do you know about support impact, about planning and testing upgrade processes, about mock ups and UX work, about training support staff, about i18n...?

--
A7R2 with SEL2470Z and a number of adapted lenses (Canon FD, Minolta AF, Canon EF, Leica, Nikon...); A7R converted to IR.
 
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BurpgunChimp said:
SQLGuy said:
I've already said what I did.
Click to expand...
So I don't know why you think your fallacious appeal to authority is going to go over any better this time mate?
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Is that your way of saying that your experience is limited to plugging some modules into a Raspberry Pi?

There are people on this thread that do have real commercial software development experience. They get it. You don't seem to.
 
BurpgunChimp said:
lattesweden said:
Aberaeron said:
Sony have not done too badly lately, with significant firmware upgrades available for early and current early release models. Others have been on the ball for years of course and Panasonic and Olympus have also provided upgrades and enhancements including for older m4/3 lenses to accommodate dual image stabilisation in some cases.
Click to expand...
Olympus added focus bracketing to several models in a firmware update some years ago and the E-M1mkI that was the flagship of the time even got the option of in body stacking since it had the CPU power to handle that.
Click to expand...
But but everyone keeps saying how it's too expensive and onerous for a massive company like Sony.
Click to expand...
I don't need in body stacking. The bracketing is enough. I prefer to do the stacking on a computer where I can choose exactly which frames I want to use to start and stop my DOF.

It isn't much functionality that is needed actually to do the bracketing in the camera. In this article one can see the Olympus menus for controlling it.

Olympus uses the e-shutter (slow 1/15-1/30-ish read out) and can actually sync it with flash. And since they normally shot the bursts as quick as they just can, you can slow the frame rate down with a delay between frames to let the flash reload if you use a flash.

They are cleaver those Olympus guys.

There are other things I have in my Olympus cameras that I would like to see on Sony like Live View Bulb/Composite and the Olympus Pro Capture (Panasonic calls the same Pre Capture) mode. That function would especially on the A9 really fit perfect.

Olympus also have in Camera RAW to JPEG development and the latest thing they added that made me happy to see is that if you hook up your camera via USB to the computer and work with RAW development in the computer software then the RAW to JPEG processing is actually done in the cameras DSP to speed the process up.

Smart phone users are used to just get an app for whatever function and if the camera makers can't produce new and fun software themselves and also don't open up at least an API then that will be another thing that will stop people want to use standalone camera.

Even the free open source app: "Open Camera" on Android has focus stacking and a lot more. Here is the source code: https://opencamera.sourceforge.io/
 
lattesweden said:
BurpgunChimp said:
lattesweden said:
Aberaeron said:
Sony have not done too badly lately, with significant firmware upgrades available for early and current early release models. Others have been on the ball for years of course and Panasonic and Olympus have also provided upgrades and enhancements including for older m4/3 lenses to accommodate dual image stabilisation in some cases.
Click to expand...
Olympus added focus bracketing to several models in a firmware update some years ago and the E-M1mkI that was the flagship of the time even got the option of in body stacking since it had the CPU power to handle that.
Click to expand...
But but everyone keeps saying how it's too expensive and onerous for a massive company like Sony.
Click to expand...
I don't need in body stacking. The bracketing is enough. I prefer to do the stacking on a computer where I can choose exactly which frames I want to use to start and stop my DOF.
Click to expand...
Sorry I meant bracketing
lattesweden said:
It isn't much functionality that is needed actually to do the bracketing in the camera. In this article one can see the Olympus menus for controlling it.

Olympus uses the e-shutter (slow 1/15-1/30-ish read out) and can actually sync it with flash. And since they normally shot the bursts as quick as they just can, you can slow the frame rate down with a delay between frames to let the flash reload if you use a flash.

They are cleaver those Olympus guys.
Click to expand...
Yup - more clever than Sony when it comes to photography it seems.
lattesweden said:
There are other things I have in my Olympus cameras that I would like to see on Sony like Live View Bulb/Composite and the Olympus Pro Capture (Panasonic calls the same Pre Capture) mode. That function would especially on the A9 really fit perfect.
Click to expand...
Yes. The Sony RX100 line have it for High Frame Rate recording.
lattesweden said:
Olympus also have in Camera RAW to JPEG development and the latest thing they added that made me happy to see is that if you hook up your camera via USB to the computer and work with RAW development in the computer software then the RAW to JPEG processing is actually done in the cameras DSP to speed the process up.

Smart phone users are used to just get an app for whatever function and if the camera makers can't produce new and fun software themselves and also don't open up at least an API then that will be another thing that will stop people want to use standalone camera.
Click to expand...
If only Sony weren't so anally retentive with securing their systems.
lattesweden said:
Even the free open source app: "Open Camera" on Android has focus stacking and a lot more. Here is the source code: https://opencamera.sourceforge.io/
Click to expand...
 
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It's my way of saying LOL I've never even owned a pi

But the bigger LOL is for the SQL guy who thinks he is a device programmer
 
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