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The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

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DenWil said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?
Click to expand...
Hopefully the photo will clearly illustrate the perspective that coming to America illegally is not the way to go- men women and children have died- and the citizens of foreign countries should keep their families together at home and fill out the legal immigration paperwork as do millions of people from around the world every year.
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Your hope is clearly not the effect the picture is having in general.
DenWil said:
DenWil said:
And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Photos from the American Civil War were of North and South with seemingly no regard for wealth. Both black and white bodies were shown. During WWl and WWll , Korea and Vietnam the people in the photos were generally representative of the parties/races involved. The dead bodies from German concentration camps were of well off caucasians.

The situation which generated this photo has people entering illegally thru the southern border who are are predominantly Hispanic and at least theoretically poor-iPhones in hand notwithstanding. So that is who is in the photo.

If the country on our southern border was China and Chinese were trying to enter America illegally the photos would be of Chinese. No doubt the Chinese government would have built a wall - whether to keep their people in or to keep everyone else out is debatable.

Mark_A
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gloaming said:
No, Mark, it's because they are common...familiar...not noteworthy...relatively innocuous....whatever descriptor you can come up with, it's because what we know and take to be 'normal' or routine, is not what our brains are trained to remark upon or to contemplate. That's why we have buzzers, and warning signs that are designed to intrude on our fogginess. I'd bet neither of us has come upon a dead body, except something predictable like a dying parent or friend. When we see an image of such things, it intrudes. Depending on our orientation to the subject, or to the image, or maybe to the context, we will form opinions that should result in a change in behavior.
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Interesting angle.

I can remember at the marathon bombing, I forget which US city it was (forgive me) but I clearly recall video of a young man being stretchered away with most of his lower leg missing. The image stuck with me, although the media stopped showing it after a few sessions.

For me, it had made its impression.

So perhaps the US media does expose such images when it suits, not sure why in one instance and not in another.

Here in the UK, we see mainly sanitised news footage, though this image of the father and daughter drowned in the Rio Grande was shown online by the BBC.

Mark_A
 
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
Click to expand...
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
Click to expand...
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
Click to expand...
I may choose to use the news story to sway opinions, others may use the story to reinforce their opinion but the news stories I read from reputable sources reported the deaths and the circumstance of their deaths without bias.
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Of course you can, I'm assuming you're not in the media so naturally you can take the facts reported, make an informed opinion and share that opinion with whomever. News media should only be reporting on facts, no commentaries. Commentaries by their very nature are biased based on the person or the media outlet company that publishes it. I don't want that in my news nor do I want them to influence my opinions. I don't need to be told what to believe.
Hello123 said:
News should not be reported because it may shape someone's opinion?
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I didn't say that, I said it needs to be unbiased.
Hello123 said:
Then we may as well abolish all news reporting or maybe just ban photos.
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In regards to this photo I read stories that reported the facts about the photo. Maybe your sources are bias but there are plenty of news agencies that report the news.

If you can be given an opion then maybe the problem is you.
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Well by now I would think it clear that I don't believe much in the news, so it should not be a far stretch to think that I'm not in the receiving line for media outlet "opinions". Regretfully, too many are given opinions and they're taken as gospel truth.

Like I said earlier Goebbels would be impressed.

I'm done here.
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You keep referring to Goebbels, I have not seen a news story using that photo for propaganda.

Do you have an example?
 
Hello123 said:
Don Lacy said:
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
Click to expand...
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
Click to expand...
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
Click to expand...
The photo is not a fact are you saying it was staged after the image was taken they got up and walked away.
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I didn't say that! In fact, you are twisting the truth just like the media.

What EXACTLY did I say, I said the media was biased. That is a far cry from you inferring that I said it was a staged event.

Done here.
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well just in case your not done you said they do not report facts I was merely asking if you believed the image is real if it is real were is the bias in reporting it. You conveniently ignore the rest of my post asking if not publishing the image is also a form of bias. Do you actually have fully formed opinions that you can articulate or are you just parroting tweets.
Hello123 said:
Hello123 said:
Were is the false narrative in the image or the story of how the father and daughter drowned and the circumstances that lead to that drowning. If a news organizations had the image and decided not to publish isn’t that also a bias.
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WunWegWunDarWun said:
The entire controversy around that photo is a completely manufactured one, was it right to publish the Kevin Carter photo of the child and the vulture ? Robert Capa's Falling Soldier ? Any of the WW2 concentration camps survivors (and non-survivors) photos ?
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Me I think such reality needs to be shown, otherwise people's imagination won't join the dots. Some people are that desperate that they risk drowning not only of themselves but also of their children.

But did it lead to changed opinions in the USA? or does it reinforce present beliefs?

The most famous Vietnam photos I believe helped bring about the end of the conflict. What will this photo help with?

Mark_A
 
gloaming said:
In times past, there was more trust ...

Looking at both sides to the extent I have time, I say that everyone is an effing liar these days. Caveat emptor.
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Not quite everyone. However, the public is less and less willing to make the effort required to distinguish truth from opinion or misinformation or deliberate lies. Many people apparently believe things like the earth is flat, vaccinations for serious contagious diseases are optional and something to be feared, and dinosaurs co-existed with modern humans. They believe what they want to believe and reject what they want to reject, leaving facts, non-facts, and opinions as inseparable concepts to them.
 
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golfhov said:
Exactly. The "standard" is actually a complete lack of one.

I am American I don't get it. How is it that 22 kids getting gunned down isn't a problem but anything that depicts the reality of how effed that is becomes the problem
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I am loath to get into the gun argument because I know politics is frowned upon on dpreview, but there have been lots of mass shootings in the US and I don't recall seeing one photo published of a victim.

I don't know why that is.

Mark_A
 
gloaming said:
Mark_A said:
...

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
No. The poor and non-white aren't purchasing the Washington Post each morning, or the LA Times, and if I'm wrong and a few do, they almost never contribute an opinion to the editor.

News outlets publish anything they think will encourage subscription to their product, even it just one copy at a street news stand. So, who wants to see a photo of grandma Jones, deceased at an old folks home last evening, unless it is because she was robbed and thrown, along with her wheelchair, into the path of a city transit bus? Kids die in backyard pools every season. Who needs to see that photo? We all do what we can to prevent such things, and yet it happens dozens of times each year just in one state alone. But migrants and refuges, as they claim to be, and as only certain parties will concede they are, who are found face down in 16 inches of water...that's news. Add a child whose arm is draped around the adult's neck....wow...dynamite!!
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Interesting angle.

I had not considered the news as a marketable commodity. There is probably some truth in your view.

Mark_A
 
DenWil said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?
Click to expand...
Hopefully the photo will clearly illustrate the perspective that coming to America illegally is not the way to go- men women and children have died- and the citizens of foreign countries should keep their families together at home and fill out the legal immigration paperwork as do millions of people from around the world every year.
Click to expand...
By law they are allowed to come here and Petition for asylum do to the conditions in their home countries. They are asylum seekers not immigrants.

As a side note if you think all you have to do to become an immigrant is fill out some papers and wait well that’s not how it works in reality for low skill labor you would have to be picked in a lottery. Having personally dealt with our immigration system like you I thought it was a rather easy and straight forward process I was wrong.
DenWil said:
DenWil said:
And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Photos from the American Civil War were of North and South with seemingly no regard for wealth. Both black and white bodies were shown. During WWl and WWll , Korea and Vietnam the people in the photos were generally representative of the parties/races involved. The dead bodies from German concentration camps were of well off caucasians.

The situation which generated this photo has people entering illegally thru the southern border who are are predominantly Hispanic and at least theoretically poor-iPhones in hand notwithstanding. So that is who is in the photo.

If the country on our southern border was China and Chinese were trying to enter America illegally the photos would be of Chinese. No doubt the Chinese government would have built a wall - whether to keep their people in or to keep everyone else out is debatable.

Mark_A
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Don Lacy said:
DenWil said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?
Click to expand...
Hopefully the photo will clearly illustrate the perspective that coming to America illegally is not the way to go- men women and children have died- and the citizens of foreign countries should keep their families together at home and fill out the legal immigration paperwork as do millions of people from around the world every year.
Click to expand...
By law they are allowed to come here and Petition for asylum do to the conditions in their home countries. They are asylum seekers not immigrants.

As a side note if you think all you have to do to become an immigrant is fill out some papers and wait well that’s not how it works in reality for low skill labor you would have to be picked in a lottery. Having personally dealt with our immigration system like you I thought it was a rather easy and straight forward process I was wrong.
Click to expand...
So Don,

Do you think it was right to publish this photo?

Incidentally, I heard of the photo on twitter and later that day saw it on the BBC website, the BBC is the national broadcaster here in the UK, so them carrying it probably meant that many other UK publications also published it.

How widely was it shown in the USA?

Mark_A
 
Mark_A said:
WunWegWunDarWun said:
The entire controversy around that photo is a completely manufactured one, was it right to publish the Kevin Carter photo of the child and the vulture ? Robert Capa's Falling Soldier ? Any of the WW2 concentration camps survivors (and non-survivors) photos ?
Click to expand...
Me I think such reality needs to be shown, otherwise people's imagination won't join the dots. Some people are that desperate that they risk drowning not only of themselves but also of their children.

But did it lead to changed opinions in the USA? or does it reinforce present beliefs?

The most famous Vietnam photos I believe helped bring about the end of the conflict. What will this photo help with?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
I don't know, I don't think anyone could have said at the time about the Vietnam girl photo "this will surely help end the war, good thing they published it", and just like with immigration there was definitely no consensus in the population about what was the right way to deal with Vietnam.

Once a photo is relevant, impactful and authentic there should be a very high standard to avoid publishing it rather than the other way around.

In this case the reason I said the controversy is manufactured is because noone seems to be able to offer a good argument to avoid publishing it beyond "it supports a political stance that is opposite to my own" and the arguments about lack of dignity towards the victims just don't stand considering the photo doesn't even show their faces.
 
Black Elk said:
WunWegWunDarWun said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
The entire controversy around that photo is a completely manufactured one, was it right to publish the Kevin Carter photo of the child and the vulture ? Robert Capa's Falling Soldier ? Any of the WW2 concentration camps survivors (and non-survivors) photos ?
Click to expand...
Good point. We have the graphic pictures of a young Vietnamese girl running from a napalm explosion as well as the picture of a Vietnamese man the moment he was shot in the head with a pistol that was inches from his head. These date back to the late 1960s. I believe that how one perceives pictures such as this relates to their socio-economic and political experiences. The agenda and motivation of the photographer also comes in to play.

Personally, I see no added value to pictures such as this and my preference is that they not be published.
Click to expand...
What kind of (news) pictures do you see added value in and what is that added value ?
 
Last edited:
Mark_A said:
golfhov said:
Exactly. The "standard" is actually a complete lack of one.

I am American I don't get it. How is it that 22 kids getting gunned down isn't a problem but anything that depicts the reality of how effed that is becomes the problem
Click to expand...
I am loath to get into the gun argument because I know politics is frowned upon on dpreview,
Click to expand...
As it should be. Photography site. Other places to have that
Mark_A said:
but there have been lots of mass shootings in the US and I don't recall seeing one photo published of a victim.
Click to expand...
Nope. Nor has there been many photos of what actually goes on in our war zones. When it comes to media in the US the plot got lost long ago. Today we find out our government covered up crimes and we decide to go after the real perpetrators......those that leaked the proof
Mark_A said:
I don't know why that is.
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I don't either and I am gonna skip out before I go to far. This is an interesting conversation. It is also very old. So far most of the comments are pretty civil. Get back to me in a few hours though.....
Mark_A said:
Mark_A
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Isn't that what it is SUPPOSED to be? Funny that the group using that slogan has a rediculous slant.

Of course the "manipulation" issue can go both ways. My two cents is as long as the reporting is accurate everyone should focus on the content and stop obsessing that everyone has an agenda. Now when the content is constantly wrong.......
 
golfhov said:
Isn't that what it is SUPPOSED to be? Funny that the group using that slogan has a rediculous slant.

Of course the "manipulation" issue can go both ways. My two cents is as long as the reporting is accurate everyone should focus on the content and stop obsessing that everyone has an agenda. Now when the content is constantly wrong.......
Click to expand...
The photo was distributed by AP which is a wire service and as such is engaged in reportage. The decision to publish it at what context and weight was with the individual newspapers who are not and never were neutral nor limited to reportage and each took their decision based on their place on the political spectrum.
 
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
tcg550 said:
Hello123 said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
Click to expand...
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
Click to expand...
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
Click to expand...
I may choose to use the news story to sway opinions, others may use the story to reinforce their opinion but the news stories I read from reputable sources reported the deaths and the circumstance of their deaths without bias.
Click to expand...
Of course you can, I'm assuming you're not in the media so naturally you can take the facts reported, make an informed opinion and share that opinion with whomever. News media should only be reporting on facts, no commentaries. Commentaries by their very nature are biased based on the person or the media outlet company that publishes it. I don't want that in my news nor do I want them to influence my opinions. I don't need to be told what to believe.
Hello123 said:
News should not be reported because it may shape someone's opinion?
Click to expand...
I didn't say that, I said it needs to be unbiased.
Hello123 said:
Then we may as well abolish all news reporting or maybe just ban photos.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
In regards to this photo I read stories that reported the facts about the photo. Maybe your sources are bias but there are plenty of news agencies that report the news.

If you can be given an opion then maybe the problem is you.
Click to expand...
Well by now I would think it clear that I don't believe much in the news, so it should not be a far stretch to think that I'm not in the receiving line for media outlet "opinions". Regretfully, too many are given opinions and they're taken as gospel truth.

Like I said earlier Goebbels would be impressed.

I'm done here.
Click to expand...
Which part about that photo do you find unbelievable ? That they were dead rather than having had snorkels photoshopped out ? That it was the Rio Grande and not the Mississippi ? That they were trying to cross the border rather than cool off on a hot summer day ?
 
Mark_A said:
Don Lacy said:
DenWil said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?
Click to expand...
Hopefully the photo will clearly illustrate the perspective that coming to America illegally is not the way to go- men women and children have died- and the citizens of foreign countries should keep their families together at home and fill out the legal immigration paperwork as do millions of people from around the world every year.
Click to expand...
By law they are allowed to come here and Petition for asylum do to the conditions in their home countries. They are asylum seekers not immigrants.

As a side note if you think all you have to do to become an immigrant is fill out some papers and wait well that’s not how it works in reality for low skill labor you would have to be picked in a lottery. Having personally dealt with our immigration system like you I thought it was a rather easy and straight forward process I was wrong.
Click to expand...
So Don,

Do you think it was right to publish this photo?

Incidentally, I heard of the photo on twitter and later that day saw it on the BBC website, the BBC is the national broadcaster here in the UK, so them carrying it probably meant that many other UK publications also published it.

How widely was it shown in the USA?
Click to expand...
Widespread mostly everywhere except on Fox News Channel.
Mark_A said:
Mark_A
Click to expand...
 
Hello123 said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
Click to expand...
LOL, two seconds flat and already invoking Godwin's Law: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Godwin's Law.
 
My 2 cents, our president has said for months that we have a crisis on the boarder and, in my opinion rightfully so. The media for months said the president was making up a story. Now the media and others are now saying we have a crisis on our boarder, and show images of children in cages, and sadly a father and daughter that drowned trying to get here. The media is using these images to make someone look bad.
 
WunWegWunDarWun said:
Black Elk said:
WunWegWunDarWun said:
Mark_A said:
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
Click to expand...
The entire controversy around that photo is a completely manufactured one, was it right to publish the Kevin Carter photo of the child and the vulture ? Robert Capa's Falling Soldier ? Any of the WW2 concentration camps survivors (and non-survivors) photos ?
Click to expand...
Good point. We have the graphic pictures of a young Vietnamese girl running from a napalm explosion as well as the picture of a Vietnamese man the moment he was shot in the head with a pistol that was inches from his head. These date back to the late 1960s. I believe that how one perceives pictures such as this relates to their socio-economic and political experiences. The agenda and motivation of the photographer also comes in to play.

Personally, I see no added value to pictures such as this and my preference is that they not be published.
Click to expand...
What kind of (news) pictures do you see added value in and what is that added value ?
Click to expand...
I believe, that in today's political environment, the photographer and the publisher have ulterior motives. This also holds true for the Vietnamese photos. We were then and are now in a highly political environment therefore no added value. Added value would be missionaries in Mexico and other Central American countries providing food, education, and medical care.
 
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