The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
The entire controversy around that photo is a completely manufactured one, was it right to publish the Kevin Carter photo of the child and the vulture ? Robert Capa's Falling Soldier ? Any of the WW2 concentration camps survivors (and non-survivors) photos ?
Good point. We have the graphic pictures of a young Vietnamese girl running from a napalm explosion as well as the picture of a Vietnamese man the moment he was shot in the head with a pistol that was inches from his head. These date back to the late 1960s. I believe that how one perceives pictures such as this relates to their socio-economic and political experiences. The agenda and motivation of the photographer also comes in to play.

Personally, I see no added value to pictures such as this and my preference is that they not be published.
 
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
I may choose to use the news story to sway opinions, others may use the story to reinforce their opinion but the news stories I read from reputable sources reported the deaths and the circumstance of their deaths without bias.
Of course you can, I'm assuming you're not in the media so naturally you can take the facts reported, make an informed opinion and share that opinion with whomever. News media should only be reporting on facts, no commentaries. Commentaries by their very nature are biased based on the person or the media outlet company that publishes it. I don't want that in my news nor do I want them to influence my opinions. I don't need to be told what to believe.

News should not be reported because it may shape someone's opinion?
I didn't say that, I said it needs to be unbiased.
Then we may as well abolish all news reporting or maybe just ban photos.
 
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
The photo is not a fact are you saying it was staged after the image was taken they got up and walked away. Were is the false narrative in the image or the story of how the father and daughter drowned and the circumstances that lead to that drowning. If a news organizations had the image and decided not to publish isn’t that also a bias.
I'm with you on that, Don. In this particular context, broaching the subject of bias appears to be a red herring.
 
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?
Hopefully the photo will clearly illustrate the perspective that coming to America illegally is not the way to go- men women and children have died- and the citizens of foreign countries should keep their families together at home and fill out the legal immigration paperwork as do millions of people from around the world every year.
And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Photos from the American Civil War were of North and South with seemingly no regard for wealth. Both black and white bodies were shown. During WWl and WWll , Korea and Vietnam the people in the photos were generally representative of the parties/races involved. The dead bodies from German concentration camps were of well off caucasians.

The situation which generated this photo has people entering illegally thru the southern border who are are predominantly Hispanic and at least theoretically poor-iPhones in hand notwithstanding. So that is who is in the photo.

If the country on our southern border was China and Chinese were trying to enter America illegally the photos would be of Chinese. No doubt the Chinese government would have built a wall - whether to keep their people in or to keep everyone else out is debatable.
 
There is nothing inherently wrong with publishing grotesqueness. In a strictly utilitarian ethic, it can always serve as a deterrent, or as a teaching aid of some kind. For those a bit muddled in their utilitarian ethics, they might complain that it lends an non-dignifying quality to the affair, or that it just seems....unseemly.

Deontic ethics would also not see this as terribly problematic in that it cannot be a universal law subscribed to by all rational beings that such photographs must never be published. The photo passes the means/end test as well, meaning that it doesn't use a human for one's own ends, but that it treats humans AS an end. What we see are two corpses which are ethically eliminated from all the conceivable proscriptions of deontic ethics. Instead, it would fall to the smaller subset of moralistic reasoning to decide if the pictures are only in bad taste or if they usurp the dignity of the person to whom the bodies belonged.

In fact, using another key principle of deontic ethics, that being the Good Will, one could argue that publishing such a photo might serve to reduce the possibility that others will meet the same fate. One should render assistance when it is reasonable and convenient to do so in keeping with Good Will. This could be rendering assistance, albeit before the fact.

To help sort it out if you are still on the fence, what about the photo of the soldier carrying the lifeless body of the young Syrian boy, Alan Kurdi, out of the surf three years ago or so? Most would say that such images serve to galvanize a disinterested public, or worse, an indifferent one. It is the duty of every adult to be apprised of reality, including the unpleasantness and misfortune of others. We are not duty-bound to respond, necessarily, but when we can....we ought.
 
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
News media should only be reporting on facts, no commentaries. Commentaries by their very nature are biased based on the person or the media outlet company that publishes it. I don't want that in my news nor do I want them to influence my opinions. I don't need to be told what to believe.
Since when is news, or any other kind of mass communication produced by a person or group, actually unbiased? Seriously. The inclusion of opinion (bias) in informational media goes back as far as the media itself. Probably the only recent change is that people today might have more difficulty recognizing it than before because that requires thought.
 
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A good question. Such images are always visceral and disturbing--as they should be. The world is not all flower shows, weddings and football games. The public at large often complains, but images like these carry such impact that they cannot be easily ignored.

Sometimes words are not enough to convey the horror of a situation: the point blank execution of a prisoner or the naked burned child running from napalm in Vietnam; the white man stabbing a black man in Boston with an American flag, the falling man from a World Trade Tower, the dead Syrian boy on the beach.

Such images have a huge impact and sometimes can motivate politicians and the public to correct evils. It's a tough call to decide which images should be published and which should be kept from the public--and believe me, journalists agonize over these decisions.

In this case I believe the image should be published. It graphically displays a terrible situation of a major international news story. Perhaps people will pay attention and some good will come from the tragedy. We can only hope and do our jobs.
I am in agreement, the photo should have been published. But it might be being used by some to further their own political aims. Is that unavoidable, or even wrong?

Mark_A
 
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think?
In general? I will skip that part
was it right to publish this photo?
Yes. I am honestly of the opinion that real news organizations should publish the images and let the viewer decide. I honestly don't get the USA standard that foreigners and non white death images are acceptable
And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?
Yes. Why? I have no idea. You would need somebody smarter than I to explain.

I will for one venture a guess......since our level of violence is so high for a developed country that we couldn't handle the non stop images of gore.......
 
In times past, there was more trust. We were told, and expected, that journalists were careful and neutral reporters of actual events, but with verifiable details that could be compared with those published elsewhere. Nowadays, journalists abound in every corner, few of them trained or ethically constrained to provide pure 'news'. Yes, of course, editors for many decades have had an influence on what gets called news, and how it is to be presented. In that slower paced time, say 20 years ago, the next day's counter-arguments, opinions, or facts could be challenged or included in one's thinking over a cup of coffee. Now, a person on youtube can have to view many different opinions and descriptions of 'fact' before breakfast. Depending on whom one takes for a veridical source, everyone 'else' is wrong, lying, inept, or corrupted in some way, as is their product.

Looking at both sides to the extent I have time, I say that everyone is an effing liar these days. Caveat emptor.
 
There is nothing inherently wrong with publishing grotesqueness. In a strictly utilitarian ethic, it can always serve as a deterrent, or as a teaching aid of some kind. For those a bit muddled in their utilitarian ethics, they might complain that it lends an non-dignifying quality to the affair, or that it just seems....unseemly.

Deontic ethics would also not see this as terribly problematic in that it cannot be a universal law subscribed to by all rational beings that such photographs must never be published. The photo passes the means/end test as well, meaning that it doesn't use a human for one's own ends, but that it treats humans AS an end. What we see are two corpses which are ethically eliminated from all the conceivable proscriptions of deontic ethics. Instead, it would fall to the smaller subset of moralistic reasoning to decide if the pictures are only in bad taste or if they usurp the dignity of the person to whom the bodies belonged.

In fact, using another key principle of deontic ethics, that being the Good Will, one could argue that publishing such a photo might serve to reduce the possibility that others will meet the same fate. One should render assistance when it is reasonable and convenient to do so in keeping with Good Will. This could be rendering assistance, albeit before the fact.

To help sort it out if you are still on the fence, what about the photo of the soldier carrying the lifeless body of the young Syrian boy, Alan Kurdi, out of the surf three years ago or so? Most would say that such images serve to galvanize a disinterested public, or worse, an indifferent one. It is the duty of every adult to be apprised of reality, including the unpleasantness and misfortune of others. We are not duty-bound to respond, necessarily, but when we can....we ought.
The photo of Alan Kurdi was very moving, a moving tragedy in Western Europe!

Also napalm girl, starving child with vulture, and many others.

They did become iconic images of their times, and also helped to change opinions.

But are there photos of white westerners that are not shown, because they are not poor and not brown, and not in a far away country?

Mark_A
 
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The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
I may choose to use the news story to sway opinions, others may use the story to reinforce their opinion but the news stories I read from reputable sources reported the deaths and the circumstance of their deaths without bias.
Of course you can, I'm assuming you're not in the media so naturally you can take the facts reported, make an informed opinion and share that opinion with whomever. News media should only be reporting on facts, no commentaries. Commentaries by their very nature are biased based on the person or the media outlet company that publishes it. I don't want that in my news nor do I want them to influence my opinions. I don't need to be told what to believe.
News should not be reported because it may shape someone's opinion?
I didn't say that, I said it needs to be unbiased.
Then we may as well abolish all news reporting or maybe just ban photos.
In regards to this photo I read stories that reported the facts about the photo. Maybe your sources are bias but there are plenty of news agencies that report the news.

If you can be given an opion then maybe the problem is you.
 
A good question. Such images are always visceral and disturbing--as they should be. The world is not all flower shows, weddings and football games. The public at large often complains, but images like these carry such impact that they cannot be easily ignored.

Sometimes words are not enough to convey the horror of a situation: the point blank execution of a prisoner or the naked burned child running from napalm in Vietnam; the white man stabbing a black man in Boston with an American flag, the falling man from a World Trade Tower, the dead Syrian boy on the beach.

Such images have a huge impact and sometimes can motivate politicians and the public to correct evils. It's a tough call to decide which images should be published and which should be kept from the public--and believe me, journalists agonize over these decisions.

In this case I believe the image should be published. It graphically displays a terrible situation of a major international news story. Perhaps people will pay attention and some good will come from the tragedy. We can only hope and do our jobs.
I am in agreement, the photo should have been published. But it might be being used by some to further their own political aims. Is that unavoidable, or even wrong?

Mark_A
Some issues transcend politics. Yes, they may impact one political party or another, but such life and death issues are pretty hard to spin even in today's poisonous atmosphere. I genuinely do not believe that the photographers and editors gave one single damn about the politics in this instance. This is a huge international situation and a major story that simply must be covered if you are a journalist.
 
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think?
In general? I will skip that part
was it right to publish this photo?
Yes. I am honestly of the opinion that real news organizations should publish the images and let the viewer decide. I honestly don't get the USA standard that foreigners and non white death images are acceptable
And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?
Yes. Why? I have no idea. You would need somebody smarter than I to explain.

I will for one venture a guess......since our level of violence is so high for a developed country that we couldn't handle the non stop images of gore.......
Yes there is a double standard there certainly. I can remember photos taken and shared via here of the Iraqi so called death road, where retreating Iraqi troops were slaughtered by American and allied forces.

The photos were very graphic and hard hitting.

However there are a lot of Americans killed by gun violence every year and no photos of the victims as far as I am aware. Seems odd.

Mind you, there were a lot of photos of 9/11 including some graphic ones, the falling man (the jumper) being one of them. Perhaps a disaster of such magnitude broke the normal rules of publication.

Mark_A
 
...

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
No. The poor and non-white aren't purchasing the Washington Post each morning, or the LA Times, and if I'm wrong and a few do, they almost never contribute an opinion to the editor.

News outlets publish anything they think will encourage subscription to their product, even it just one copy at a street news stand. So, who wants to see a photo of grandma Jones, deceased at an old folks home last evening, unless it is because she was robbed and thrown, along with her wheelchair, into the path of a city transit bus? Kids die in backyard pools every season. Who needs to see that photo? We all do what we can to prevent such things, and yet it happens dozens of times each year just in one state alone. But migrants and refuges, as they claim to be, and as only certain parties will concede they are, who are found face down in 16 inches of water...that's news. Add a child whose arm is draped around the adult's neck....wow...dynamite!!
 
A good question. Such images are always visceral and disturbing--as they should be. The world is not all flower shows, weddings and football games. The public at large often complains, but images like these carry such impact that they cannot be easily ignored.

Sometimes words are not enough to convey the horror of a situation: the point blank execution of a prisoner or the naked burned child running from napalm in Vietnam; the white man stabbing a black man in Boston with an American flag, the falling man from a World Trade Tower, the dead Syrian boy on the beach.

Such images have a huge impact and sometimes can motivate politicians and the public to correct evils. It's a tough call to decide which images should be published and which should be kept from the public--and believe me, journalists agonize over these decisions.

In this case I believe the image should be published. It graphically displays a terrible situation of a major international news story. Perhaps people will pay attention and some good will come from the tragedy. We can only hope and do our jobs.
I am in agreement, the photo should have been published. But it might be being used by some to further their own political aims. Is that unavoidable, or even wrong?

Mark_A
On both sides, it's not avoidable. If I see an opinion piece using a photo like that I will seek out the facts and then form an opinion. Unfortunately many people are too lazy or too set in their opinions that facts no longer matter.
 
I am in agreement, the photo should have been published. But it might be being used by some to further their own political aims. Is that unavoidable, or even wrong?

Mark_A
Some issues transcend politics. Yes, they may impact one political party or another, but such life and death issues are pretty hard to spin even in today's poisonous atmosphere. I genuinely do not believe that the photographers and editors gave one single damn about the politics in this instance. This is a huge international situation and a major story that simply must be covered if you are a journalist.
Do you recall the child and vulture image? There were people commenting then that the photographer should not have been taking pictures, rather they should be saving the child. I know you are a photo journalist, have you ever experienced such accusations?

Mark_A
 
The photo of the dead father and daughter in the Rio Grande.

There have been some comments that publications showing the photo have been disrespectful to the family of the dead.

Others have said that using such photos is essential to getting the story out, to illustrating an issue that is happening to many.

I know there are many examples of shocking photos going back in time that helped crystalise feelings towards events / wars / civilian issues.

What do you think? was it right to publish this photo?

And is there an issue that it is only poor people and usually non white people whose photos are published like this?

Mark_A
People die every day, thousands of them. Women, children, men, grandparents, the weak, the strong, the list goes on and on. In fact, 151,600* people die each day. The ONLY reason this picture was published is that it fits the political narrative. Joseph Goebbels would be proud of how well the mass media has been used these past couples of decades.

*source https://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/
But many people die needlessly and news stories with photos could be used to prevent more needless dying by bringing attention to a horrible situation.

Some people need to be shocked with photos or see something first hand in order to sway their opinion and begin to take steps to stop the dying.
The media is supposed to be unbiased and just report on the facts; they don't do that. Regardless of your political beliefs, It should clearly evident that facts don't matter anymore. Pulling on heartstrings to shape and form beliefs is where it's at. Because we are visual creatures, photographs and video are very powerful.
I may choose to use the news story to sway opinions, others may use the story to reinforce their opinion but the news stories I read from reputable sources reported the deaths and the circumstance of their deaths without bias.
Of course you can, I'm assuming you're not in the media so naturally you can take the facts reported, make an informed opinion and share that opinion with whomever. News media should only be reporting on facts, no commentaries. Commentaries by their very nature are biased based on the person or the media outlet company that publishes it. I don't want that in my news nor do I want them to influence my opinions. I don't need to be told what to believe.
News should not be reported because it may shape someone's opinion?
I didn't say that, I said it needs to be unbiased.
Then we may as well abolish all news reporting or maybe just ban photos.
In regards to this photo I read stories that reported the facts about the photo. Maybe your sources are bias but there are plenty of news agencies that report the news.

If you can be given an opion then maybe the problem is you.
Well by now I would think it clear that I don't believe much in the news, so it should not be a far stretch to think that I'm not in the receiving line for media outlet "opinions". Regretfully, too many are given opinions and they're taken as gospel truth.

Like I said earlier Goebbels would be impressed.

I'm done here.
 
Exactly. The "standard" is actually a complete lack of one.

I am American I don't get it. How is it that 22 kids getting gunned down isn't a problem but anything that depicts the reality of how effed that is becomes the problem
 
I am in agreement, the photo should have been published. But it might be being used by some to further their own political aims. Is that unavoidable, or even wrong?

Mark_A
Some issues transcend politics. Yes, they may impact one political party or another, but such life and death issues are pretty hard to spin even in today's poisonous atmosphere. I genuinely do not believe that the photographers and editors gave one single damn about the politics in this instance. This is a huge international situation and a major story that simply must be covered if you are a journalist.
Do you recall the child and vulture image? There were people commenting then that the photographer should not have been taking pictures, rather they should be saving the child. I know you are a photo journalist, have you ever experienced such accusations?

Mark_A
Personally, I've never hesitated to drop my cameras and help if I can. I'm a human being first, and photojournalist second. Usually it makes no difference and I just do my job and stay out of the way.
 
No, Mark, it's because they are common...familiar...not noteworthy...relatively innocuous....whatever descriptor you can come up with, it's because what we know and take to be 'normal' or routine, is not what our brains are trained to remark upon or to contemplate. That's why we have buzzers, and warning signs that are designed to intrude on our fogginess. I'd bet neither of us has come upon a dead body, except something predictable like a dying parent or friend. When we see an image of such things, it intrudes. Depending on our orientation to the subject, or to the image, or maybe to the context, we will form opinions that should result in a change in behavior.
 

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