Amusing Canon Thread

That claimed the D2h was going to have 12 (or was it 14) stops of dynamic range.

Or better yet, noiseless ISO 6400, with 12800 as an option.

Everyone gets slightly carried away, C or N.

In the meantime, most of us, just continue taking pictures, but it is fun to read all of the wild speculation.
--
Theo

Community Website for Toronto Digital Camera Users -
http://communities.msn.ca/TorontoDigital

Radioshack - You've got questions, we've got blank stares.
Hi All. This doesn't belong on this forum, and I'm sure I'm going
to regret posting this, but it made me laugh so I thought I'd pass
it on.

There is a monster thread on the Canon 1D forum that has got all of
the Caononites in a total lather. It seems that someone has heard
directly from their dealer (camera dealer, I assume :-) that the 1D
replacement will be a 12 MP, full frame, 8 frame/sec wonder,
costing only $3500, and introduced sometime between the end of this
month and Thanksgiving.

The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
 
... in July '02, and $4700 for my second in December. Look what Canon has done to the price now ... legit retail for $2820!! Yeow!
(Nikon must be about to release some D2h units!)
Ken
If that rumour is true - then god help this forum :)
Robert A
Hi All. This doesn't belong on this forum, and I'm sure I'm going
to regret posting this, but it made me laugh so I thought I'd pass
it on.

There is a monster thread on the Canon 1D forum that has got all of
the Caononites in a total lather. It seems that someone has heard
directly from their dealer (camera dealer, I assume :-) that the 1D
replacement will be a 12 MP, full frame, 8 frame/sec wonder,
costing only $3500, and introduced sometime between the end of this
month and Thanksgiving.

The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
--
-Robert A
--
Len
What's a camera without a photographer? (touche, Ger Bee)
--

'Don't hope your pictures will 'turn out' ... make them good to begin with'. Oft said by my late father.
http://www.ahomls.com/gallery.htm
 
It doesn't work that way for large chips! You get a logarithic increase in failures, and therefore in price! And the 1D/1Ds casting is completely different from the 1v casting.
Ken
I don't expect that the rumor is accurate, but you never know. The
development cycle on these cameras is longer than most people on
this forum seem to realize--particularly on a new body (as opposed
to an "upgrade" like D60 to 10D)

I expect that Canon is losing a bundle on the Digital Rebel, and is
counting on that camera to bring people into the Canon fold. We'll
see.
  • Jared
The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
We know that Canon has the chip technology and they have found a
way to do it cheaper with the 300D. It is no crazier than Nikon
when they brought out a 6MP D100 for half the price of a 5MP D1X. I
think the 1Ds is a cash cow anyway because it has no competition.
If Nikon brought out a $6000 FF pro camera, the 1Ds price would
drop immediately to $5000 and Canon would still profit handsomely.
So a $3500 FF version of the 10D is not out of line. While I
appreciate the thought that goes into Nikon stuff, I do wish they
moved a bit quicker.
--

'Don't hope your pictures will 'turn out' ... make them good to begin with'. Oft said by my late father.
http://www.ahomls.com/gallery.htm
 
Hi Hans,

The story reminds me the battle in the old days between VHS and Betamax. Betamax by Sony was better than VHS. Image and sound quality were superior, and the cassette was small and elegant. Sony believed that the name Sony only is sufficient to sell the system. JVC/VHS was hammering the market with ads that "bigger is better", referring to the cassette size, and at the end of the day, they made everyone believe the story. The end of the story is known, and even Sony started manufacturing VHS VCRs. This is the power of advertising continuously with the same mantra. Nikons' name was a nickname for quality and prestige, but it's not enough nowadays (especially when it became doubtful recently with all the published [and somewhat exaggerated] problems - but even I got hurt by QC problems at Nikon - like a broken mirror in the D100, right-side softness of a lens etc.) Flood the market with new products often which is a sensitive point nowadays - showing a big investment in R&D, invest heavily in ads, lower the prices - and sooner or later you'll win the war. Unfortunately, that's what Canon is doing and Nikon is still asleep. Denial is not a solution, as reality will slap on our faces eventually. No one needs 12 MP for sport/PJ, unless the intentions are to shoot extremely carelessly and crop heavily afterwards. However, it sells, and provides the buyer with the feeling that his Canon is better than anything else, filling him up with a "platoon pride" and THAT sells. "Mine is bigger and better" is a very popular phrase nowadays, and a measure of a clever decision made in the photographers' mind. That's reality, sad but true. Technically, with the dirt-cheap prices of memory today, and the buying power of Canon, I do not see any obstacle to make this camera. What chance will the really great D2H have in a photographers' mind - when Canon will have a 12MP camera at a lower price?
I didn't mean to offend any Canon folks by saying I was amused by
this. It seemed funny to me because some guy claims his camera
dealer told him this, and everybody just buys into it, without
knowing the poster and not knowing anything about the alleged
camera dealer. This is the internet, for crying out loud, where
people without any credentials or credibility will and do say
anything. People just don't seem to think very critically any more.
They hear something that, in their heart, they want to believe, and
they thow all their good common sense away and say "Yeah, this
sounds plausible".
It might be a funny joke and a good laugh. However, it may be true
though, what then? Technically there's no real breakthrough here -
11 MP they got already and 12 is not such a big difference, 8 fps
they got already, so where will the surprise and improbability come
from? It maybe wishfull thinking of a Canon guy, but those guys run
fast while Nikon hardly walks. I'd hate to see our own faces,
embracing the D2H when and if they will come up with this camera.
Wisdom says - let's shut up and hope that Nikon will keep in pace
with them. The louder we'll laugh now, the louder we'll cry later!
I'm with Nikon for over 30 years now, but with all the glorious
past achievements I'm afraid that Canon found the right key to the
modern photographers' heart - "innovate and surprise". Quality is
not the prime issue anymore. Popularity is money and power. IMHO,
as said here - some managers at Nikon should change the disk in
their head if they want to survive.
--
D100, CP4500, CP3100, Sony DSC-F717.
19 Nikkors, 4 aliens, 4x TCs
 
If you look at the last two Canon Rumors both have come true even if they were late...

The 10D was a fast rumor that was only leaked out a few months before it was released and the 300D was rumored for about a year before it finally made it to market.

Now people are starting with this 1Dx thing and it could take up to a year before it does finally hit the street with those specs at that price.
Hi All. This doesn't belong on this forum, and I'm sure I'm going
to regret posting this, but it made me laugh so I thought I'd pass
it on.

There is a monster thread on the Canon 1D forum that has got all of
the Caononites in a total lather. It seems that someone has heard
directly from their dealer (camera dealer, I assume :-) that the 1D
replacement will be a 12 MP, full frame, 8 frame/sec wonder,
costing only $3500, and introduced sometime between the end of this
month and Thanksgiving.

The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
 
Hi Yossi,

I don't see any obstacles to making this camera either, but it'll be a couple of years yet (if not longer) before they can do it for $3500 AND still make a profit. If they want to sell at a loss, then that's another matter. Of course, this is just my opinion, but since I design small high performance computers for a living, this is a somewhat educated opinion.

Here are a few facts to consider:
  • A full frame sensor is roughly 6 times the size of Intel's current top of the line Pentium 4 chip. The P4 is generally considered to be a pretty big chip by industry standards. A full frame chip, therefore, is HUGE and yields will be AWFUL, even if manufactured in a state of the art fab. The largest semiconductor wafers used today are 300mm in diameter. Roughly 60 full frame chips will fit on a 300mm wafer. That means the cost of processing a single wafer must be amortized over at best 60 chips. And most of those chips won't be functional, for a whole host of reasons, so the cost to fab a single wafer will actually have to be amortized over much fewer than 60 chips. Wafer fab costs for state of the art 300mm wafers are pretty high. After yield losses, I would be surprised if anyone could fabricate a full frame chip for less than $1K apiece. That's actual cost to build, not any marked up cost for sale.
  • Getting 12 MP off a sensor at 8 frames per second is a daunting task. With the LBCAST sensor, Nikon had to go to 2 readout lines per pixel row to get the required readout bandwidth. Scaling that up suggests that you would need 6 readout lines per pixel row (i.e. 12 MP at 8 frames per sec. requires three times the readout bandwidth of Nikon's sensor). You would probably need three times as many amplifiers and A/D converters to handle all these read lines. Amplifier gain would have to be adjusted so that you didn't get banding. Adjusting amplifier gain drives up cost. High speed A/D converters aren't cheap and consume a lot of power. So getting 12 MP off a sensor at 8 frames per sec. drives up the cost and power consumption.
  • To buffer 12 MP at 8 frames per second would take a huge buffer. I agree with you that memory is cheap, but consider this. The largest ram chips currently available are 512 megabits, or 64 megabytes. With 18 MB per image (assuming 12-bits per pixel), it would take 6 of these very large ram chips to buffer 20 raw images. Still not a lot of money, but this would require a lot of circuit board space in the camera. Also, to handle the flood of pixels, you'd have to operate these chips, and the ASIC that controlled them, at frequencies of 100 Mhz or more. Six chips and an ASIC operating at such a high speed consumes a lot of power, which along with the higher expected sensor power consumption, will require a beefier battery and power regulation system.
None of these things are impossible, of course. But they all drive up costs. It just doesn't seem even remotely plausible to me that Canon, or Nikon, or anyone, could make such a camera, with TODAY's technology, for the quoted $3500. A couple of years from now it'll be a different story, but the Canon thread is claiming it is imminent, which means it would have to be designed with today's, and to some extent, yesterday's technology.

Of course, I've been wrong before (more times than I care to admit). If Canon were to pull this off, then I would happily eat crow and get in line for one of these miracles. But I think that's just what it would take - a miracle - for Canon, or anybody else, to pull this off.
I do not see any obstacle to make this camera.
 
Hi All. This doesn't belong on this forum, and I'm sure I'm going
to regret posting this, but it made me laugh so I thought I'd pass
it on.

There is a monster thread on the Canon 1D forum that has got all of
the Caononites in a total lather. It seems that someone has heard
directly from their dealer (camera dealer, I assume :-) that the 1D
replacement will be a 12 MP, full frame, 8 frame/sec wonder,
costing only $3500, and introduced sometime between the end of this
month and Thanksgiving.

The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
... though I'm sure there are many that want to. A camera with those specs would kill the 1Ds, the current flagship model. And it has only been out for six months or so.

The 1D body is 'professional', weather sealed and built like a tank. I don't think a plastic body in a replacement would cut it. I think 6MP at 8 FPS is doable. But 12FPS? It would probably burn your hands after 16 shots! I have a 3 Ghz Pentium hyper threaded laptop. It has two fans in the base and one in the AC adapter. Speed costs power.

OTOH, I've been wrong before, many times. I suppose time will tell. In the mean time, I'm taking my ancient 1D out to take some pictures. I'm sure they won't come out any worse after 'whatever' is announced and released. Enjoy the hobby, or the business for some, and don't sweat it.

I stil have my F FTN Photomic and you know what? It STILL takes great pics - and the batteries last for five years or more.
  • Arnie
 
Hi Hans,

As I'm involved in electronics production myself (not computers though), my staff had proven to me that everything is possible sizewise. I'm not familiar with chip fabrication, yield and cost, so I'll take your words for it. The point is not only the technical point. Just imagine the wisdom of the magic numbers - 8fps and 12 MP: it will be very easy, even using your formula, to come up with a camera that will have both options - 12MP and say 3fps and 8fps at 6MP for example. The psychological linkage will be - 12MP+8fps. This will be enough to shake the market off Nikon. Canon is very smart in marketing, they prove it every day. They may take a strategic move to loose some money - according to your calculation, even for quite a while (and they can afford it) just to blow Nikon away. Unfortunately, I see in the near future (maximum 5 years from now) a large acquisition, and the name Nikon by Canon on future cameras. I hope I'm wrong, but IMHO all leads to it. I'm not bothered by the future outcome in the sense of needing to buy new lenses, but by the fact that Canon will become a second Microsoft with practically no competition.
I don't see any obstacles to making this camera either, but it'll
be a couple of years yet (if not longer) before they can do it for
$3500 AND still make a profit. If they want to sell at a loss, then
that's another matter. Of course, this is just my opinion, but
since I design small high performance computers for a living, this
is a somewhat educated opinion.

Here are a few facts to consider:
  • A full frame sensor is roughly 6 times the size of Intel's
current top of the line Pentium 4 chip. The P4 is generally
considered to be a pretty big chip by industry standards. A full
frame chip, therefore, is HUGE and yields will be AWFUL, even if
manufactured in a state of the art fab. The largest semiconductor
wafers used today are 300mm in diameter. Roughly 60 full frame
chips will fit on a 300mm wafer. That means the cost of processing
a single wafer must be amortized over at best 60 chips. And most of
those chips won't be functional, for a whole host of reasons, so
the cost to fab a single wafer will actually have to be amortized
over much fewer than 60 chips. Wafer fab costs for state of the art
300mm wafers are pretty high. After yield losses, I would be
surprised if anyone could fabricate a full frame chip for less than
$1K apiece. That's actual cost to build, not any marked up cost for
sale.
  • Getting 12 MP off a sensor at 8 frames per second is a daunting
task. With the LBCAST sensor, Nikon had to go to 2 readout lines
per pixel row to get the required readout bandwidth. Scaling that
up suggests that you would need 6 readout lines per pixel row (i.e.
12 MP at 8 frames per sec. requires three times the readout
bandwidth of Nikon's sensor). You would probably need three times
as many amplifiers and A/D converters to handle all these read
lines. Amplifier gain would have to be adjusted so that you didn't
get banding. Adjusting amplifier gain drives up cost. High speed
A/D converters aren't cheap and consume a lot of power. So getting
12 MP off a sensor at 8 frames per sec. drives up the cost and
power consumption.
  • To buffer 12 MP at 8 frames per second would take a huge buffer.
I agree with you that memory is cheap, but consider this. The
largest ram chips currently available are 512 megabits, or 64
megabytes. With 18 MB per image (assuming 12-bits per pixel), it
would take 6 of these very large ram chips to buffer 20 raw images.
Still not a lot of money, but this would require a lot of circuit
board space in the camera. Also, to handle the flood of pixels,
you'd have to operate these chips, and the ASIC that controlled
them, at frequencies of 100 Mhz or more. Six chips and an ASIC
operating at such a high speed consumes a lot of power, which along
with the higher expected sensor power consumption, will require a
beefier battery and power regulation system.

None of these things are impossible, of course. But they all drive
up costs. It just doesn't seem even remotely plausible to me that
Canon, or Nikon, or anyone, could make such a camera, with TODAY's
technology, for the quoted $3500. A couple of years from now it'll
be a different story, but the Canon thread is claiming it is
imminent, which means it would have to be designed with today's,
and to some extent, yesterday's technology.

Of course, I've been wrong before (more times than I care to
admit). If Canon were to pull this off, then I would happily eat
crow and get in line for one of these miracles. But I think that's
just what it would take - a miracle - for Canon, or anybody else,
to pull this off.
I do not see any obstacle to make this camera.
--
D100, CP4500, CP3100, Sony DSC-F717.
19 Nikkors, 4 aliens, 4x TCs
 
If you look at the last two Canon Rumors both have come true even
if they were late...
And how many Canon rumors did not become true? ;)

The 8mp, 8fps 2D/1Dx was taken as a matter of fact some weeks ago...

The 8mp EOS 3D should have come out somewhen last fall...

The D60 follow up (10D) was said to be 9mp and full frame or at least 1.3x etc...

I like rumors a lot, but these Canon rumors are simply not the most convincing.......... ;)

Walter
 
And that was a year off as well. I ? if Canon has a replacement ready right now (6-9 months away still). I still think the 1D's (not the 1Ds's) drastic drop in price is because they feel threatened by the D2H.

Steven
If you look at the last two Canon Rumors both have come true even
if they were late...

The 10D was a fast rumor that was only leaked out a few months
before it was released and the 300D was rumored for about a year
before it finally made it to market.

Now people are starting with this 1Dx thing and it could take up to
a year before it does finally hit the street with those specs at
that price.

Hans Giersberg wrote:
--
---
New and Updated!!!
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/a_study_in_light
 
Hi All. This doesn't belong on this forum, and I'm sure I'm going
to regret posting this, but it made me laugh so I thought I'd pass
it on.

There is a monster thread on the Canon 1D forum that has got all of
the Caononites in a total lather. It seems that someone has heard
directly from their dealer (camera dealer, I assume :-) that the 1D
replacement will be a 12 MP, full frame, 8 frame/sec wonder,
costing only $3500, and introduced sometime between the end of this
month and Thanksgiving.

The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
... though I'm sure there are many that want to. A camera with
those specs would kill the 1Ds, the current flagship model. And it
has only been out for six months or so.
The 1D body is 'professional', weather sealed and built like a
tank. I don't think a plastic body in a replacement would cut it.
I think 6MP at 8 FPS is doable. But 12FPS? It would probably burn
your hands after 16 shots! I have a 3 Ghz Pentium hyper threaded
laptop. It has two fans in the base and one in the AC adapter.
Speed costs power.
OTOH, I've been wrong before, many times. I suppose time will
tell. In the mean time, I'm taking my ancient 1D out to take some
pictures. I'm sure they won't come out any worse after 'whatever'
is announced and released. Enjoy the hobby, or the business for
some, and don't sweat it.
I stil have my F FTN Photomic and you know what? It STILL takes
great pics - and the batteries last for five years or more.
  • Arnie
I'm with you, Arnie. How the heck do you move it on to the CF card, for starters? 6MP and 8fps, sure, but no more than that with present cards - I supposed you could do a kludge outputting to a couple of cards, or use a huge buffer or something, but all this hardly seems likely.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
You still hear about the 3D so I wouldn't rule that out yet but I was referring to the general idea behind the camera and not so much the specifics but the 300D was dead on and the 10D was as well when it started getting closer to becoming a reality.

As for the 1Dx, I'm not sure it won't be full frame but I am sure it won't be this year if it is.
If you look at the last two Canon Rumors both have come true even
if they were late...
And how many Canon rumors did not become true? ;)

The 8mp, 8fps 2D/1Dx was taken as a matter of fact some weeks ago...

The 8mp EOS 3D should have come out somewhen last fall...

The D60 follow up (10D) was said to be 9mp and full frame or at
least 1.3x etc...

I like rumors a lot, but these Canon rumors are simply not the most
convincing.......... ;)

Walter
 
I'm with you, Arnie. How the heck do you move it on to the CF card,
for starters? 6MP and 8fps, sure, but no more than that with
present cards - I supposed you could do a kludge outputting to a
couple of cards, or use a huge buffer or something, but all this
hardly seems likely.
I agree with both of you that we wont see the specs mentioned for a while....simply because of the expense, but just hypothesizing...I would think better algorhythms would be mandatory for the new pixel girth. Canon's RAW file size is currently about 20% smaller than Nikons. I would guess that there is plenty of room for further enhancement.

(feel free to accurately correct my guestimate. I know Nikon's 6.1mp D100 translates to a RAW 9.5mb file size and I believe Canon's D60/10 are about 7.5mb)

BTW didnt conventional wisdom agree that the quality is more important than the size? If there was a high-speed, low-light, noise-free Foveon in a competitive body like a 1D or D2h, would we care if it had less megapixels?

Finally, I am glad to see Nikon using their own mfrg to create their sensor.
--
Philly http://phillywood.com An Amalgam of images.
 
Despite being a user of Nikon film cameras for 15 years, I recently participated in this thread in the Canon 1D/1Ds forum, specifically because, if it is at least partially true, it will impact my imminent conversion to digital. I've now read both threads fully, the Canon one and this one. The most amusing thing about this all is that, depite that this thread initially pointed out the absurdity of the other thread, it has esentially evolved into almost exactly the same debate, lol. Actually, the debate in the Canon forum wasn't as delusional as had been noted. It mainly was a debate on whether something like this is technically possible at this point in time, and, actually, the opinions reflect about the same proportion of optomism vs skepticism as the posts here.

Personally, I thinks its pretty marginal that anyone could accomplish a camera with those specs at this particular point in time, but, on the other hand, no one really wants to pay $11,000 total to be able to shoot both high-speed and high-res, which is essentially the cost of a 1D &1Ds, if they don't have to. I think the compelling thing about this rumor is that it's uncovering a strong desire to simply have one top-of-the-line camera that can do both speed and quality just like it was/is in the analog world. So, personally, I find it more attractive to make arguments as to why it may be possible, simply because it's so desirable. Still, I'm realistic about it's probable impracticality.

A couple things have caught my attention, though. Someone mentioned that Canon's cost on the 1Ds sensor is $400-$800. If that is true, it is interesting to note that the sensor in the 300D, though almost identical in performance to the sensor in the 10D, was produced with a new process at a significantly lower cost. This is interesting becuase there's no reason to assume that the same process wouldn't be used for a new sensor for a new high-end camera. Would this make a 12MP sensor a cost effective addition to a $3500 camera. Very probably. Which, of course, brings us to the issue of processing that much date at 8 FPS.

I agree that this is where things get complicated. I'm not saying this is at all what's going to happen, but I know that Canon's patented a Foveon-style sensor that can read 2 colors per pixel. Could this be used as the basis of a camera that does 8 FPS at 6MP but is also capable of outputting 12MP files at a slower pace? One wonders then, if the rumor was started by someone who heard '12MP files' and assumed '12MP sensor'? Probably not, but just a thought.

Anyway, I've had a little fun with this thread myself, not because it's more important than going out and taking picture, and not because I'm deluded by my desire for such a camera or for new tech. Actually, it's been fun to discuss what is or isn't possible as the technology stands right now, and it's been interesting to speculate on what's a short way down the road. As long as I never lose track of the importance of the art of photography itself, I see no reason not to indulge in discussing the very interesting topic of burgeoning digital technology, or advancing technology in general.

Mike
 
I'm with you, Arnie. How the heck do you move it on to the CF card,
for starters? 6MP and 8fps, sure, but no more than that with
present cards - I supposed you could do a kludge outputting to a
couple of cards, or use a huge buffer or something, but all this
hardly seems likely.
I agree with both of you that we wont see the specs mentioned for a
while....simply because of the expense, but just hypothesizing...I
would think better algorhythms would be mandatory for the new pixel
girth. Canon's RAW file size is currently about 20% smaller than
Nikons. I would guess that there is plenty of room for further
enhancement.

(feel free to accurately correct my guestimate. I know Nikon's
6.1mp D100 translates to a RAW 9.5mb file size and I believe
Canon's D60/10 are about 7.5mb)

BTW didnt conventional wisdom agree that the quality is more
important than the size? If there was a high-speed, low-light,
noise-free Foveon in a competitive body like a 1D or D2h, would we
care if it had less megapixels?

Finally, I am glad to see Nikon using their own mfrg to create
their sensor.
--
Philly http://phillywood.com An Amalgam of images.
 
Despite being a user of Nikon film cameras for 15 years, I recently
participated in this thread in the Canon 1D/1Ds forum, specifically
because, if it is at least partially true, it will impact my
imminent conversion to digital. I've now read both threads fully,
the Canon one and this one. The most amusing thing about this all
is that, depite that this thread initially pointed out the
absurdity of the other thread, it has esentially evolved into
almost exactly the same debate, lol. Actually, the debate in the
Canon forum wasn't as delusional as had been noted. It mainly was
a debate on whether something like this is technically possible at
this point in time, and, actually, the opinions reflect about the
same proportion of optomism vs skepticism as the posts here.

Personally, I thinks its pretty marginal that anyone could
accomplish a camera with those specs at this particular point in
time, but, on the other hand, no one really wants to pay $11,000
total to be able to shoot both high-speed and high-res, which is
essentially the cost of a 1D &1Ds, if they don't have to. I think
the compelling thing about this rumor is that it's uncovering a
strong desire to simply have one top-of-the-line camera that can do
both speed and quality just like it was/is in the analog world.
So, personally, I find it more attractive to make arguments as to
why it may be possible, simply because it's so desirable. Still,
I'm realistic about it's probable impracticality.

A couple things have caught my attention, though. Someone
mentioned that Canon's cost on the 1Ds sensor is $400-$800.
Based on what? Seems like pure speculation, and a bad one.

The mechanics of the camera shouldnt cost more than around the same amount as the filmversion. In that case Canon should be able to sell the 1Ds for less than 3,000 dollars. Whisful thinking.

If
that is true, it is interesting to note that the sensor in the
300D, though almost identical in performance to the sensor in the
10D, was produced with a new process at a significantly lower cost.
This is interesting becuase there's no reason to assume that the
same process wouldn't be used for a new sensor for a new high-end
camera. Would this make a 12MP sensor a cost effective addition to
a $3500 camera. Very probably. Which, of course, brings us to the
issue of processing that much date at 8 FPS.

I agree that this is where things get complicated. I'm not saying
this is at all what's going to happen, but I know that Canon's
patented a Foveon-style sensor that can read 2 colors per pixel.
Could this be used as the basis of a camera that does 8 FPS at 6MP
but is also capable of outputting 12MP files at a slower pace? One
wonders then, if the rumor was started by someone who heard '12MP
files' and assumed '12MP sensor'? Probably not, but just a thought.

Anyway, I've had a little fun with this thread myself, not because
it's more important than going out and taking picture, and not
because I'm deluded by my desire for such a camera or for new tech.
Actually, it's been fun to discuss what is or isn't possible as the
technology stands right now, and it's been interesting to speculate
on what's a short way down the road. As long as I never lose track
of the importance of the art of photography itself, I see no reason
not to indulge in discussing the very interesting topic of
burgeoning digital technology, or advancing technology in general.

Mike
--
http://www.pbase.com/interactive
 
I'm with you, Arnie. How the heck do you move it on to the CF card,
for starters? 6MP and 8fps, sure, but no more than that with
present cards - I supposed you could do a kludge outputting to a
couple of cards, or use a huge buffer or something, but all this
hardly seems likely.
I agree with both of you that we wont see the specs mentioned for a
while....simply because of the expense, but just hypothesizing...I
would think better algorhythms would be mandatory for the new pixel
girth. Canon's RAW file size is currently about 20% smaller than
Nikons. I would guess that there is plenty of room for further
enhancement.
(feel free to accurately correct my guestimate. I know Nikon's
6.1mp D100 translates to a RAW 9.5mb file size and I believe
Canon's D60/10 are about 7.5mb)
I'd go along with most of that,but it don't seem easy to compress RAW files, no-one else but Canon compress hardly at all, and the Canon compression is fairly mild. They seem to have good engineers working in their RAW department, hard to believe it's the same guys who do the Canon AWB. Are you sure you guys haven't managed to get a Nikon troll into the Canon WB engineering department? (G)
BTW didnt conventional wisdom agree that the quality is more
important than the size? If there was a high-speed, low-light,
noise-free Foveon in a competitive body like a 1D or D2h, would we
care if it had less megapixels?
I've never really understood that argument. Sure, if you manage to up the basic sensitivity of the sensor you can take your pick of how you use the improvement, either in a greater pixel count or increased dynamic range or decreased noise.
I suppose the statement is really just saying that around 6MP is enough.

We do seem to be on something of a plateau for sensor sensitivity though, and I rather doubt that we are going to see a noise free Foveon anytime soon, although improvement from current levels is undoubtably possible, as cross-talk with the several layers in a Foveonchip must be more of a problem than in a conventional design.

I see that the bosses at Nikon are now moving over to talking about eventual FF sensors, and that is certainly an attractive option if it can be done economically.
Finally, I am glad to see Nikon using their own mfrg to create
their sensor.
Absolutely. They are now getting control of their manufacturing processes, it seems you need vertical integration in this industry.
--
Philly http://phillywood.com An Amalgam of images.
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
Despite being a user of Nikon film cameras for 15 years, I recently
participated in this thread in the Canon 1D/1Ds forum, specifically
because, if it is at least partially true, it will impact my
imminent conversion to digital. I've now read both threads fully,
the Canon one and this one. The most amusing thing about this all
is that, depite that this thread initially pointed out the
absurdity of the other thread, it has esentially evolved into
almost exactly the same debate, lol. Actually, the debate in the
Canon forum wasn't as delusional as had been noted. It mainly was
a debate on whether something like this is technically possible at
this point in time, and, actually, the opinions reflect about the
same proportion of optomism vs skepticism as the posts here.

Personally, I thinks its pretty marginal that anyone could
accomplish a camera with those specs at this particular point in
time, but, on the other hand, no one really wants to pay $11,000
total to be able to shoot both high-speed and high-res, which is
essentially the cost of a 1D &1Ds, if they don't have to. I think
the compelling thing about this rumor is that it's uncovering a
strong desire to simply have one top-of-the-line camera that can do
both speed and quality just like it was/is in the analog world.
So, personally, I find it more attractive to make arguments as to
why it may be possible, simply because it's so desirable. Still,
I'm realistic about it's probable impracticality.

A couple things have caught my attention, though. Someone
mentioned that Canon's cost on the 1Ds sensor is $400-$800.
Based on what? Seems like pure speculation, and a bad one.
The mechanics of the camera shouldnt cost more than around the same
amount as the filmversion. In that case Canon should be able to
sell the 1Ds for less than 3,000 dollars. Whisful thinking.
Agreed. I personally doubt Canon make much on the 1Ds. Everyone moans about the cost of the 1Ds, but the failure rate of such a huge chip must have been high at first at least. It's a handy way of defraying their costs as they acquire expertise, but Moore's law refers to pixel density not acreage of silicon so we can't expect massive reductions in costs soon.
A FF AA filter is also certainly not cheap!

I reckon Canon's next move will be to a 1.3 factor CMOS sensor, which could have around 8-9MP at the same pixel size as a 10D. At around 5fps that's not impossible to get on a CF card either. The crop factor at 1.3 is quite reasonable too.

It'll be fascinating to see what Nikon come out with in the upgrade to the 1Dx - I reckon we are in for some pretty interesting developments - will they develop the 1.5 further or go for a larger sensor size?
If
that is true, it is interesting to note that the sensor in the
300D, though almost identical in performance to the sensor in the
10D, was produced with a new process at a significantly lower cost.
This is interesting becuase there's no reason to assume that the
same process wouldn't be used for a new sensor for a new high-end
camera. Would this make a 12MP sensor a cost effective addition to
a $3500 camera. Very probably. Which, of course, brings us to the
issue of processing that much date at 8 FPS.

I agree that this is where things get complicated. I'm not saying
this is at all what's going to happen, but I know that Canon's
patented a Foveon-style sensor that can read 2 colors per pixel.
Could this be used as the basis of a camera that does 8 FPS at 6MP
but is also capable of outputting 12MP files at a slower pace? One
wonders then, if the rumor was started by someone who heard '12MP
files' and assumed '12MP sensor'? Probably not, but just a thought.

Anyway, I've had a little fun with this thread myself, not because
it's more important than going out and taking picture, and not
because I'm deluded by my desire for such a camera or for new tech.
Actually, it's been fun to discuss what is or isn't possible as the
technology stands right now, and it's been interesting to speculate
on what's a short way down the road. As long as I never lose track
of the importance of the art of photography itself, I see no reason
not to indulge in discussing the very interesting topic of
burgeoning digital technology, or advancing technology in general.

Mike
--
http://www.pbase.com/interactive
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
A couple things have caught my attention, though. Someone
mentioned that Canon's cost on the 1Ds sensor is $400-$800.
Based on what? Seems like pure speculation, and a bad one.
The mechanics of the camera shouldnt cost more than around the same
amount as the filmversion. In that case Canon should be able to
sell the 1Ds for less than 3,000 dollars. Whisful thinking.
You're absolutely right that the $400-$800 figure might be totally inaccurate. On the other hand, what makes you think that the 1Ds is priced at $8000 because it has to be. The Kodak 14n, though flawed, isn't necessarily cheaper to produce, and it sells for $3000 less.

On the other, other hand, there are other components besides a sensor that add to the cost vs a film SLR, and there are R&D costs to recoup, and there's the fact that it's a specialized item.

Nonetheless, there's a $6500 difference between the 10D and the 1Ds. Even if you alot $1000-$1500 extra dollars for build quality and extra features (which I think is a lot), is it realistic to say that 11MP sensor in the 1Ds is $5000 more valuable than the 6.5MP sensor in the 10D? I don't really think so, and this is without taking into account that they could now produce the chip more cheaply.

Mike
 
...and I recall spending "only" $3,200 for an Apple Laserwriter IINT back in the late 80s. What a bargain at the time.

-Robert A
If that rumour is true - then god help this forum :)
Robert A
Hi All. This doesn't belong on this forum, and I'm sure I'm going
to regret posting this, but it made me laugh so I thought I'd pass
it on.

There is a monster thread on the Canon 1D forum that has got all of
the Caononites in a total lather. It seems that someone has heard
directly from their dealer (camera dealer, I assume :-) that the 1D
replacement will be a 12 MP, full frame, 8 frame/sec wonder,
costing only $3500, and introduced sometime between the end of this
month and Thanksgiving.

The thing that struck me as funny is how seriously almost everyone
there is taking this report. There are a few naysayers, but only a
few. Everyone else seems to be a true believer. So if anyone still
has any Brooklyn bridges they'd like to sell, I think I know where
you can find a buyer.
--
-Robert A
--
Len
What's a camera without a photographer? (touche, Ger Bee)
--
'Don't hope your pictures will 'turn out' ... make them good to
begin with'. Oft said by my late father.
http://www.ahomls.com/gallery.htm
--
-Robert A
 

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