s 14-30mm corners?

Very interesting. What f-stop did you use? Could you post one in full-size?
The F-stops varied. Here's one taken at 14mm, F4.0 and 1/25th of a second at ASA 800. Unfortunately, I've already deleted the originals from both camera and computer, retaining only the JPGs I imported into Apple's Photos app.

701517113cdb447488a7e612c5b6b0b5.jpg

West hall
 
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I've been enlarging my test own self-made test charts and test distance for the same reason too, since a couple of years. But I started at 101 x f anyway, decennia ago. Sadly, most users of Imatest test at distances of 25 x f, some at 50x f. As a result, most tests you find on the internet are rather useless when it comes to wide angles and even standard lenses. On the other side, many lenses show so many aberrations at larger apertures that even if they are being tested too close, the results are not completely meaningless.
 
I've been enlarging my test own self-made test charts and test distance for the same reason too, since a couple of years. But I started at 101 x f anyway, decennia ago. Sadly, most users of Imatest test at distances of 25 x f, some at 50x f. As a result, most tests you find on the internet are rather useless when it comes to wide angles and even standard lenses. On the other side, many lenses show so many aberrations at larger apertures that even if they are being tested too close, the results are not completely meaningless.
Yes. To do my test, for most lenses wide open, 101*FL is not nearly enough. For example, to test a 35 mm f/1.4 lens on a FF camera, you need more than 2000*FL.

However, that distance is too far for Imatest analysis, unless the targets are very large.
 
To do my test, for most lenses wide open, 101*FL is not nearly enough. For example, to test a 35 mm f/1.4 lens on a FF camera, you need more than 2000*FL.

However, that distance is too far for Imatest analysis, unless the targets are very large.
It matters little in some ways, but taking 35mm focal length for mathematical convenience as 1.5 inches; at 2000xFL the subject distance is 250 feet.

Finding a subject with good fine detail parallel to the entire image area at 250 feet distance - to check the corners - using a 35mm lens can take some finding.
 
To do my test, for most lenses wide open, 101*FL is not nearly enough. For example, to test a 35 mm f/1.4 lens on a FF camera, you need more than 2000*FL.

However, that distance is too far for Imatest analysis, unless the targets are very large.
It matters little in some ways, but taking 35mm focal length for mathematical convenience as 1.5 inches; at 2000xFL the subject distance is 250 feet.

Finding a subject with good fine detail parallel to the entire image area at 250 feet distance - to check the corners - using a 35mm lens can take some finding.
You didn't read my test procedure, did you?

Here's another link to it:

https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/

Jim
 
Finding a subject with good fine detail parallel to the entire image area at 250 feet distance - to check the corners - using a 35mm lens can take some finding.
You didn't read my test procedure, did you?

Here's another link to it:

https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/
I am aware of your test procedure.

I come back to my comment.

Framing first centre, then edges and maybe then corners (this thread is about corners) has challenges with alignment particularly up and down due to tripod head limitations. Left and right is generally easier to achieve with a good pan head.

You rightly clarify alignment as a critical issue when testing.

101x focal length with a 35mm focal length is a manageable for many 12.5 feet distance.

2,000x and 250 feet with a 35mm lens is often much more challenging for correct alignment; particularly up and down for the corners.

Going back to a comment I made earlier, one response has recognised that the focussed distance can be important when shooting at 14mm.

Several shots of street scenes posted have the closest detail at the frame edges.

With this type of shot to get the near distance corners sharp at f4, 14mm, FX may require a focus distance no more than around 8-10 feet.

Around 10 feet focus distance helps making the best use of depth of field by not focussing beyond the hyperlocal distance (at f4) and in consequence loosing near distance sharpness. To get 8-10 feet focus distance manual focus can be useful.

Maybe the 14-24 f2.8 S will have a focus distance scale. A limitation of the 14-30 is no distance scale to help make best use of dof when appropriate.
 
Finding a subject with good fine detail parallel to the entire image area at 250 feet distance - to check the corners - using a 35mm lens can take some finding.
You didn't read my test procedure, did you?

Here's another link to it:

https://blog.kasson.com/lens-screening-testing/
I am aware of your test procedure.
Then you know that one of the things it does is eliminate the need for critical alignment.

It also eliminates the need for targets bigger than E size.
I come back to my comment.

Framing first centre, then edges and maybe then corners (this thread is about corners) has challenges with alignment particularly up and down due to tripod head limitations.
Alignment is not critical with my procedure.
Left and right is generally easier to achieve with a good pan head.

You rightly clarify alignment as a critical issue when testing.
Only with some tests.
101x focal length with a 35mm focal length is a manageable for many 12.5 feet distance.

2,000x and 250 feet with a 35mm lens is often much more challenging for correct alignment; particularly up and down for the corners.
Again, I note that alignment is not critical with my test.
Jim
 
I am aware of your test procedure.
Then you know that one of the things it does is eliminate the need for critical alignment.

It also eliminates the need for targets bigger than E size.
Yes - but 2 buts

1/ if you are testing the corners at 250 feet distance with a 35mm on FX; to keep 7 targets (one extra in each corner) exactly aligned the camera needs to be several feet above ground level.

I agree with 3 images of 3 targets when just testing the centre and outer edges there is unlikely to be an alignment problem.

2/ at 250 feet with a 35mm lens the target needs printing at a very large size relative to testing with a single 3 foot target filling the entire picture area.

--
Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than the equipment being used.
 
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Then you know that one of the things it does is eliminate the need for critical alignment.

It also eliminates the need for targets bigger than E size.
Yes - but 2 buts

1/ if you are testing the corners at 250 feet distance with a 35mm on FX; to keep 7 targets (one extra in each corner) exactly aligned the camera needs to be several feet above ground level.
You don't seem to comprehend the test. One target is used nine times. And alignment can be off by at least 15 degrees.
I agree with 3 images of 3 targets when just testing the centre and outer edges there is unlikely to be an alignment problem.
Again, you seem to think the test has a different protocol than it actually does.
2/ at 250 feet with a 35mm lens the target needs printing at a very large size relative to testing with a single 3 foot target filling the entire picture area.
A 3-foot target will do the whole job. Just one of them.

Jim
 
That is interesting, I saw a review that demonstrated sample variation where different parts of the image were worse than others with different examples of the same lens.

But both sample lenses showed weakness in the corners that never sharpened up.

At 30mm and in DX mode the lens was always good, but nobody is buying a 14-30 for the 30mm end
 
The ability to get a decent flesh tone under those lights is nothing short of miraculous. I love the Z for that
 
Got to spend the first full day with this lens yesterday since purchasing it a few weeks ago. I'd say the corners at 14mm are not as good as the 14-24 but not something to be really worried about. They are ok stopped down.
I had the 14-24 till recently and I sold it for a Zeiss 15mm f/2.8 Milvus (for the circular filters capability). The Zeiss 15mm clearly exceeded image quality of the 14-24mm. In my comparison between the Zeiss and the 14-30mm f/4 on a tripod, I do not see much difference in the image quality including the corners. I am not selling the Zeiss - as it can still be used on my D850 - and maybe there are some differences that I did not capture in my initial testing.
Never shot with the Zeiss 15 so I won't comment on it
On the other hand I would have to say that overall I am not as impressed by the lens as I had hoped to be. I think the 24-70 outdoes it by a noticeable margin as do the 35 and the 50 (expected). I also feel there is no comparison between it and the 14-24.

I have no real problem with the 14-30 per se but feel that it is just not a real special lens at all.
Of course it is a special lens - the size and the ability to take regular circular filters is what makes it a special lens. More than tiny differences in image quality, these are the things which affect more in terms of a lens' usability - how small it is, weight, features like ability to take filters, VR, etc.
No, to me the size and ability do not make it special. That logic makes an iphone lens special!. To me a special lens is determined by its image quality. By the way I always loved the 14-24 when I had it. It's just too big, especially on a D850 sized body.
Now that I own the 24-70F4, the 35 and the 50, I am confident in saying that the 14-30 is the weakest of the Z lenses so far.
24-70 f/4 is a good lens - but it is not a groundbreaking lens other than having a good image quality. There exist similar spec lenses - like Canon 24-70mm f/4 in the EF mount. Also Sony has a 24-70mm f/4 - though it is not very great image quality from what I remember I read.
The Canon is another great lens. I shot with the Sony for a few months a few years ago and thought it was one of the worst zooms I had ever shot with.
Don't get me wrong - I do like Z 24-70 f/4 - but to say that 14-30 f/4 is the weakest of the Z lenses does not make a lot of sense when for many folks the reason to buy the Z system is that lens. And I see the image quality not lagging compared to my Zeiss 15mm f/2.8 which is an excellent lens.
I may have a bad copy, I don't know but the more I shoot with this lens, the less I like it. I have no problem with the corners as a lot of other seem to, but my biggest beef is the micro contrast.

I admit I am very picky when it comes to lenses. I also think that there is a very wide difference in what one person considers a good lens and what another considers a not so good lens. To me, there are very few lenses out there that are truly impressive (Nikon 105F1.4, 200F2, Leica 50F1.4, 50F2 APO, 21F3.4 ASPH, Fuji 90, Zeiss 21 and 100 are a few I would name). Not that anything else is bad, and there are an awful lot of fantastic lenses that I have never shot with, but I do compare what I try or use to these. Not that I expect everything to equal these (most don't even come close), but these raise the bar enough for me to be less than enthusiastic about a lot of other lenses.

I preordered the 14-30 as soon as it was announced and waited many weeks for it. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that perhaps my expectations were just too high. At this point though, I really want to see some results with the Loxia 21 and and e to z adapter. I owned that lens when I shot with Sony and thought it was pretty good. I can do without 14, 16 and 18mm.
 
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One target is used nine times.
Agreed this is an option - but takes quite a while to accomplish.
2/ at 250 feet with a 35mm lens the target needs printing at a very large size relative to testing with a single 3 foot target filling the entire picture area.
A 3-foot target will do the whole job. Just one of them.
I remain less than fully convinced.

A 3 foot target fills the frame with a 35mm lens at near enough 3.25 feet.

By 250 feet it fills 3.125% of the frame.

I appreciate if you print the target out in segments to make it 12 foot wide it then covers 12.5% of the frame.

It can be challenging to interpret precise results using a target at 12.5% of its intended size.
 
One target is used nine times.
Agreed this is an option - but takes quite a while to accomplish.
About two minutes per set.
2/ at 250 feet with a 35mm lens the target needs printing at a very large size relative to testing with a single 3 foot target filling the entire picture area.
A 3-foot target will do the whole job. Just one of them.
I remain less than fully convinced.
Try it.
A 3 foot target fills the frame with a 35mm lens at near enough 3.25 feet.

By 250 feet it fills 3.125% of the frame.

I appreciate if you print the target out in segments to make it 12 foot wide it then covers 12.5% of the frame.

It can be challenging to interpret precise results using a target at 12.5% of its intended size.
 
2/ at 250 feet with a 35mm lens the target needs printing at a very large size relative to testing with a single 3 foot target filling the entire picture area.
A 3-foot target will do the whole job. Just one of them.
I remain less than fully convinced.
Try it.
I have used a 3 foot target designed to be used at 27x focal length at a focus at a distance of 42 feet with a 500mm.

In a part of the world which is far from flat I can only do this outdoors when the wind is low and the light a constant brightness. With a 1.4 converter on a 500mm the distance increases to 58.5 feet.

At 14mm I use segments of a target printed to 6 foot wide equivalent because (as your notes indicate) this makes alignment easier.

I appreciate zooming in helps with the analysis, but zooming in on an already significantly zoomed in target with a 35mm lens, a 3 foot target, and a focus distance of 250 feet (assuming 250 is easy to find in a high population density undulating region) does not meet my minimum criteria for reliable accuracy.

--
Leonard Shepherd
In lots of ways good photography is much more about how equipment is used rather than the equipment being used.
 
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Hi Leonard, there may be some truth in your opinion, but it would be a lot easier if you would use the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units.

Then 27 x f for a 400mm would simply mean 27 x 0,4 = 10,8 meter. You can calculate that in a blink of an eye without the use of any computer or smartphone, you don't even need a piece of paper.

But apart from that, although I don't fully agree with Jim, 27 x f for a 400 mm is way too close. I know by testing that you will get bad corners, while at larger distances the corners will be ok.

I do agree with you though, that unless you have a very large back yard, testing at large distances can be quite difficult. On the other hand, if you use Jim's system where you need only one target, things get a little easier.

But in general testing lenses is not for everyone. You see all too often people 'testing' lenses and posting opinions here that are not worth the electrons used to show them on your screen. It's underestimated by almost everyone, including many sites, among which DxO.

More about that in a sperate post.
 
Hi Jim,

Testing at 2.000 x f takes away any effect of the difference in distance as you showed. In my view, you don’t even need 2.000 x f, even if you use your way of testing. You can make the CoC larger since no lens/sensor combination is able to see details smaller than about 1.2 x the pixel pitch (in terms of lp/mm or cycles/mm it’s even 2.4 x the pixel pitch). And then you might argue that at f/1.4 or larger apertures there will be so many uncorrected aberrations in the corners that the blur due to the difference in distances in the center and in the corners is neglectable. But ok, I understand that you want to be on the safe side. Enlarging the object distance to approx. 2.000 x f gives us i.m.o. at least three advantages:
  1. you test to see how well a lens does at large distances, in other words you disregard the fact that a lens might not be ideally corrected for objects at closer distances
  2. skewing the camera slightly makes it possible to position the target everywhere in the image while keeping almost the same distance, hence avoiding the need to refocus and the need for several targets (DOF will compensate for the relatively small difference in distance between corners and center).
  3. you avoid problems with regards to the parallelism of the camera sensor and the targets.
It also has disadvantages.
  1. It’s not very practical way of testing, unless you have a very large back yard and the weather is good (that was Leonard's valid point).
  2. It doesn’t say much about how well a lens performs at moderate and small distances.
Your use of Siemens-stars at 2.000 x f seems a valuable extra method to test lenses. It’s way better than the long distance shots DPR and others make, because then it’s very hard to compare meridional and sagittal structures – while it is very easy with a Siemens star. But if you really want to test more than whether a lens is not decentered or tilted or similar, you should make tests at other distances too.

From experience I know there can be large differences, e.g. with the three Nikon 50-ish standard lenses (50/1.4 G, 50/1.8G and 58/1.4G). All three display the same pattern: at 50 x f and less the corners are bad and don’t even get really good until you stop down a lot, at 100 x f the corners aren’t great until you stop down till at least f/4, and finally at 300 x f it’s a lot better and at infinity slightly better than that. The performance at around 100 x f at large apertures can be important e.g. for group pictures with many lenses or for theater photography. On the other hand I’ve tested a 85mm at 18 x f and compared that to the Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G. The lens that must not be named gave better test results at that distance than the Nikkor, even in the center. The reason I tested it at that distance though, was that the lens that must not be named turned out to emphasize almost invisible skin blemishes on a model with a nice skin in such a way, that it was impossible to remove them by lowering clarity and sharpening without getting strange looking results. So each portrait I made with that lens had to be retouched. The Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G on the other hand, works very well wide open and at f/2 and makes portraits you can use without the need of retouching with most subjects. At 100 x f there were small differences in sharpness at large apertures between the lenses and at infinity there were no differences! I also tested a Fuji lens, that was great at 101 x f, but not so great in the corners at infinity (probably because curvature of field compensates point 2 below partly but shows its ugly head at infinity). If you test a macro lens in this way, you are even drawing conclusions based on the least important use case for such a lens. All of that is to show that testing is not an easy feat, you have to define different use cases and different criteria for different lens types, hence different distances. As a rule, I test at 101 x f but also at larger distances and sometimes at smaller distances.

The problems with less sharp corners when making pictures at certain distances, have at least two different causes:
  1. Field curvature, one of the Seidel aberrations that lens designers have been trying to correct since ages.
  2. The effect that Jim described, that especially in wide angle and to an extreme part on fisheye lenses, the objects at the borders and in the corners are larger or even infinitely larger away from the camera than the object in the center of the image.
In all modern lens designs, there has been made some kind of effort to correct both phenomena in such a way that both at moderate distances and at infinity you get reasonably sharp corners. You can argue though, that with a 24 mm f/1.4 sharp corners at one feet at f/1.4, is something that almost no photographer will need. Correcting a lens for that situation, on the other hand, will likely go at the expense of other corrections or at least make the lens more expensive.

So most lenses have floating elements or moving groups that partly compensate both phenomena I mentioned and sometimes even field curvature is used to partly compensate the second cause. But such a correction always has some kind of disadvantage in a certain situation. What I’ve seen with the 14-30/4 and also with many other lenses, is that if you make a picture focused at infinity, parts of the scene that are closer and fall outside the DOF can vary in sharpness between the corners and the borders e.g.. Most of the time it’s no problem, but if it is, you can make a focus stack, and with the Nikon Z cameras you can do that with the blink of an eye.

Apart from that, I think the corners of the 14-30/4 @ 14 mm are ok, but the 14-24/2.8 is better at 14 mm. The 14-24mm f/2.8G is best at the short range, the 14-30/4 is best at the long range. Most users might not see the difference though and it’s relatively small and light. I’m doing some extra testing with the 14-30 right now. But maybe those who want the very best should wait for the Nikkor Z 14-24mm f/2.8 S. If it's as good as the Nikkor Z 24-70mm f/2.8 S, it will blow both the 14-24mm f/2.8 G and the Z 14-30mm f/4 out of the water.
 
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2/ at 250 feet with a 35mm lens the target needs printing at a very large size relative to testing with a single 3 foot target filling the entire picture area.
A 3-foot target will do the whole job. Just one of them.
I remain less than fully convinced.
Try it.
I have used a 3 foot target designed to be used at 27x focal length at a focus at a distance of 42 feet with a 500mm.
Was it the same target that I use?

If not, I repeat, try it.
In a part of the world which is far from flat I can only do this outdoors when the wind is low and the light a constant brightness. With a 1.4 converter on a 500mm the distance increases to 58.5 feet.

At 14mm I use segments of a target printed to 6 foot wide equivalent because (as your notes indicate) this makes alignment easier.

I appreciate zooming in helps with the analysis, but zooming in on an already significantly zoomed in target with a 35mm lens, a 3 foot target, and a focus distance of 250 feet (assuming 250 is easy to find in a high population density undulating region) does not meet my minimum criteria for reliable accuracy.
My test is extremely reliable, with proper interpretation. In fact, it contains within it some QA information which I use when people send me their raws for analysis. That information helps me tell if the captures were properly made.

Jim
 
Hi Jim,

Testing at 2.000 x f takes away any effect of the difference in distance as you showed. In my view, you don’t even need 2.000 x f, even if you use your way of testing. You can make the CoC larger since no lens/sensor combination is able to see details smaller than about 1.2 x the pixel pitch (in terms of lp/mm or cycles/mm it’s even 2.4 x the pixel pitch). And then you might argue that at f/1.4 or larger apertures there will be so many uncorrected aberrations in the corners that the blur due to the difference in distances in the center and in the corners is neglectable. But ok, I understand that you want to be on the safe side.
Bingo!
Enlarging the object distance to approx. 2.000 x f gives us i.m.o. at least three advantages:
  1. you test to see how well a lens does at large distances, in other words you disregard the fact that a lens might not be ideally corrected for objects at closer distances
  2. skewing the camera slightly makes it possible to position the target everywhere in the image while keeping almost the same distance, hence avoiding the need to refocus and the need for several targets (DOF will compensate for the relatively small difference in distance between corners and center).
  3. you avoid problems with regards to the parallelism of the camera sensor and the targets.
It also has disadvantages.
  1. It’s not very practical way of testing, unless you have a very large back yard and the weather is good (that was Leonard's valid point).
I appreciate that not everyone lives in a rural environment. People who send me results to be analysed seem to be testing in parking lots, parks, or courtyards.
  1. It doesn’t say much about how well a lens performs at moderate and small distances.
For sure. But the purpose of the test is to determine if you have a bad copy or not. Everything else is just gravy.
Your use of Siemens-stars at 2.000 x f
I'd like to point out that the graphs that I've computed to show the distance required are much more complicated than 2000*FL. They depend on focal length, sensor size, and aperture in a nonlinear way. For may lenses, the distances required are much shorter than 2000*FL. The day before yesterday, I tested a lens at 180*FL, and I didn't really need to back up that far:

https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/fuji-100-200-mm-f-5-6-screening/
seems a valuable extra method to test lenses. It’s way better than the long distance shots DPR and others make, because then it’s very hard to compare meridional and sagittal structures – while it is very easy with a Siemens star.
The DPR long distance shots are also subject to atmospheric thermal effects, which IMHO can invalidate the results.
But if you really want to test more than whether a lens is not decentered or tilted or similar, you should make tests at other distances too.
I fully agree.

Thanks for taking the time to understand the test.

Jim
 

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