Who is on a Crusade?

It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
This is exactly the problem with technical discussions on a forum like this. Too much wordsmithing and nit picking. I've seen this play out before. You said in effect amplifying and bobn2 is talking about amplifying actual light which you never said. And the argument goes on talking past each other.
It gets back to there questions:
  • When there is a choice between a word that is technically correct, and a word that is not, which word should be used?
  • Does the answer change if the word is commonly used in an incorrect fashion? Is it useful to propagate an incorrect, but common usage?
Given the choice between correct and incorrect, then correct should always be used as a matter of general principle. And it is never useful to propagate anything that is incorrect.

But the problem often is whose correct is the right one?
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
ISO? It sets the relationship between exposure and output image lightness. That's the short answer, not the one I'd give a beginner.

As to 'amplifying light', where would the additional light come from?
Did you read the words 'in effect' just prior to the words 'amplifying the actual light'?

And what did I follow that with? akin to turning up the volume on your stereo

If we want to be pedantically ridiculous, the ISO develop and publish international standards. How does that help people understand what the settings on their cameras do?

How about a simple two to three sentence description of what the ISO dial does and its effect on the final image. Phrased for a beginner. Should be a simple task.
 
They make statements like the exposure triangle has ruined a whole generation of beginners and making it hard for us to teach them the truth. It is difficult to undo the damage done by the exposure triangle so, as a teacher of the right way, I feel my mission is to damn the exposure triangle and expose it for its faults before it ruin anymore beginners.
I think you're exaggerating. I don't think anyone has said that the 'Triangle ' has 'ruined' a whole generation of beginners.
I paraphrased, not quoted.
No-one suggested that you were quoting. Your 'paraphrase' was an exaggeration.
What has been said is that a large proportion of people who learned using the 'Triangle' have ended up getting the basics of photography, such as what is 'exposure', wrong.

From experience it is difficult to get people to unlearn. Some, such as yourself, actively resist learning,
This is what I mean by personal attacks rather that promoting technical accuracy. You prove my case.
Yeah, well, you enter threads for no reason to make personal attacks and observations, so getting sniffy now about someone observing, correctly, that you actively resist learning is taking the biscuit.
others just find that they can't rid themselves of a conceptual model that stops them understanding the basics (such as what is ISO).

The 'mission' is to try to ensure that when beginners ask for the facts about the basics of photography, they get them.
Who appointed you the missionary and why do you have to put others down who don't believe as you do?
Missionaries are rarely appointed. As to why I do it, I think it's a shame that so many photographers starting out are being fed a load of cobblers, so I do what I can to at least ensure that they have some actual knowledge available to them. I know the vendors of cobblers resent it, a lot, but that's actually a sign that I'm doing some good.
They always get fed the Triangle view, it is when someone tries to point out that this is based on a number of fallacies, and tries to present a version which is factually correct that they get attacked, denigrated, insulted by the likes of you.

If it was possible for someone to put the Triangle point of view, then someone to put the factual point of view, without the subsequent attacks, things would be much simple. But what it wouldn't do is satisfy people such as yourself who want to create a situation where people are scared of challenging the Triangle, so that it can be presented to beginners as the sole true way of photography.
The triangle is a film-era concept that is outmoded and has no point of view in today's cameras.
It's actually a digital era concept. Just a bad one.
That is the point to make without going on a crusade to chastise it. But it does make you look smarter to keep preaching against it.
Someone has to be there to provide people who ask to know the basics of photography the right basics, ones that will lead them to understand what they asked to understand. Luckily there are a few of us (and a few more with each of these threads) who are willing and happy to do that, even though the consequence is invariably to draw abuse from Triangle believers.
Is this really why you do it?
Do what?
Perhaps there is a less inflammatory approach to giving your thoughts on a topic than you have used in the past.
It depends who I'm talking to. When I'm, explaining things to a beginner, I'm not inflammatory. When I'm talking to who make a habit of calling me a liar, insulting me and so on, I'll treat them the way they treat me. When I'm talking to people who have denied the very simple theory of photography simply because they didn't know it but didn't want to be wrong, have carried that denial over thread after thread, have cast aspersions at anyone and everyone who dares to actually know the stuff, then maybe I'll have a little fun at their expense. It's not as though they are lily-white paragons of virtue themselves. In fact, as has been said by several people here, it's generally them that stand up and throw the first stones, then whinge about a few coming back in their direction.
You are a wealth of knowledge, but if communicated with a condescending tone, people will shut out your message.
Ah, the 'C' word. By and large, when someone accuses you of being condescending, what it means is you said they were wrong. And to be hones, when I say someone is wrong the first time, I'm generally pretty gentle about it, because everyone is wrong the first time. It's after a bit of the behaviour detailed above that maybe the shrift available gets shorter.
 
According to the International Standards Organisation, the ISO setting on a digital camera sets the speed rating (or effective sensitivity) of the camera.

The ISO standard ISO 12232:2006 gives digital still camera manufacturers a choice of five different techniques for determining the exposure index rating at each sensitivity setting provided by a particular camera model. Three of the techniques in ISO 12232:2006 are carried over from the 1998 version of the standard, while two new techniques allowing for measurement of JPEG output files are introduced from CIPA DC-004. Depending on the technique selected, the exposure index rating can depend on the sensor sensitivity, the sensor noise, and the appearance of the resulting image. The standard specifies the measurement of light sensitivity of the entire digital camera system and not of individual components such as digital sensors, although Kodak has reported using a variation to characterize the sensitivity of two of their sensors in 2001.

The Recommended Exposure Index (REI) technique, new in the 2006 version of the standard, allows the manufacturer to specify a camera model’s EI choices arbitrarily. The choices are based solely on the manufacturer’s opinion of what EI values produce well-exposed sRGB images at the various sensor sensitivity settings. This is the only technique available under the standard for output formats that are not in the sRGB colour space. This is also the only technique available under the standard when multi-zone metering (also called pattern metering) is used.

The Standard Output Sensitivity (SOS) technique, also new in the 2006 version of the standard, effectively specifies that the average level in the sRGB image must be 18% grey plus or minus 1/3 stop when the exposure is controlled by an automatic exposure control system calibrated per ISO 2721 and set to the EI with no exposure compensation. Because the output level is measured in the sRGB output from the camera, it is only applicable to sRGB images—typically JPEG—and not to output files in raw image format. It is not applicable when multi-zone metering is used.

The CIPA DC-004 standard requires that Japanese manufacturers of digital still cameras use either the REI or SOS techniques, and DC-008 updates the EXIF specification to differentiate between these values. Consequently, the three EI techniques carried over from ISO 12232:1998 are not widely used in recent camera models (approximately 2007 and later). As those earlier techniques did not allow for measurement from images produced with lossy compression, they cannot be used at all on cameras that produce images only in JPEG format.

The saturation-based (SAT or Ssat) technique is closely related to the SOS technique, with the sRGB output level being measured at 100% white rather than 18% grey. The SOS value is effectively 0.704 times the saturation-based value. Because the output level is measured in the sRGB output from the camera, it is only applicable to sRGB images—typically TIFF—and not to output files in raw image format. It is not applicable when multi-zone metering is used.

The two noise-based techniques have rarely been used for consumer digital still cameras. These techniques specify the highest EI that can be used while still providing either an "excellent" picture or a "usable" picture depending on the technique chosen.

An update to this standard has now been published ISO 12236:2019. I believe it extends the range of official ISO values.
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
ISO? It sets the relationship between exposure and output image lightness. That's the short answer, not the one I'd give a beginner.

As to 'amplifying light', where would the additional light come from?
Did you read the words 'in effect' just prior to the words 'amplifying the actual light'?
I did. But as I said the effects are entirely unlike amplifying the light. So the 'in effect' doesn't really make things any better. Then, it was somewhat negated by the use of the word 'actual', which strongly suggests that you think that raising ISO has the effect of amplifying the actual light,
And what did I follow that with? akin to turning up the volume on your stereo
Turning up the volume on your stereo isn't in effect making the original sound any louder.
If we want to be pedantically ridiculous,
Bye.

--
Ride easy, William.
Bob
 
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It gets back to there questions:
  • When there is a choice between a word that is technically correct, and a word that is not, which word should be used?
  • Does the answer change if the word is commonly used in an incorrect fashion? Is it useful to propagate an incorrect, but common usage?
Given the choice between correct and incorrect, then correct should always be used as a matter of general principle. And it is never useful to propagate anything that is incorrect.

But the problem often is whose correct is the right one?
That's a reasonable question to ask.

Ideally, people should be able to discuss it without needing to discuss the people participating in the discussion.
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
This is exactly the problem with technical discussions on a forum like this. Too much wordsmithing and nit picking. I've seen this play out before. You said in effect amplifying and bobn2 is talking about amplifying actual light which you never said. And the argument goes on talking past each other.
What I actually said in replay was ;there is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. So maybe you should learn to read. I wasn't talking about amplifying actual light, I was saying that there was no effect remotely similar.
I understood what he meant using the words, in effect. But you had go correct him using your superior knowledge to nit pick.
 
They make statements like the exposure triangle has ruined a whole generation of beginners and making it hard for us to teach them the truth. It is difficult to undo the damage done by the exposure triangle so, as a teacher of the right way, I feel my mission is to damn the exposure triangle and expose it for its faults before it ruin anymore beginners.
I think you're exaggerating. I don't think anyone has said that the 'Triangle ' has 'ruined' a whole generation of beginners.
I paraphrased, not quoted.
No-one suggested that you were quoting. Your 'paraphrase' was an exaggeration.
What has been said is that a large proportion of people who learned using the 'Triangle' have ended up getting the basics of photography, such as what is 'exposure', wrong.

From experience it is difficult to get people to unlearn. Some, such as yourself, actively resist learning,
This is what I mean by personal attacks rather that promoting technical accuracy. You prove my case.
Yeah, well, you enter threads for no reason to make personal attacks and observations, so getting sniffy now about someone observing, correctly, that you actively resist learning is taking the biscuit.
others just find that they can't rid themselves of a conceptual model that stops them understanding the basics (such as what is ISO).

The 'mission' is to try to ensure that when beginners ask for the facts about the basics of photography, they get them.
Who appointed you the missionary and why do you have to put others down who don't believe as you do?
Missionaries are rarely appointed. As to why I do it, I think it's a shame that so many photographers starting out are being fed a load of cobblers, so I do what I can to at least ensure that they have some actual knowledge available to them. I know the vendors of cobblers resent it, a lot, but that's actually a sign that I'm doing some good.
They always get fed the Triangle view, it is when someone tries to point out that this is based on a number of fallacies, and tries to present a version which is factually correct that they get attacked, denigrated, insulted by the likes of you.

If it was possible for someone to put the Triangle point of view, then someone to put the factual point of view, without the subsequent attacks, things would be much simple. But what it wouldn't do is satisfy people such as yourself who want to create a situation where people are scared of challenging the Triangle, so that it can be presented to beginners as the sole true way of photography.
The triangle is a film-era concept that is outmoded and has no point of view in today's cameras.
It's actually a digital era concept. Just a bad one.
no no it is not as I have stated and others it was how I learned to shoot slide film when brightness was determined at the time of capture. It would be helpful if you got this simple fact right.
That is the point to make without going on a crusade to chastise it. But it does make you look smarter to keep preaching against it.
Someone has to be there to provide people who ask to know the basics of photography the right basics, ones that will lead them to understand what they asked to understand. Luckily there are a few of us (and a few more with each of these threads) who are willing and happy to do that, even though the consequence is invariably to draw abuse from Triangle believers.
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
This is exactly the problem with technical discussions on a forum like this. Too much wordsmithing and nit picking. I've seen this play out before. You said in effect amplifying and bobn2 is talking about amplifying actual light which you never said. And the argument goes on talking past each other.
What I actually said in replay was ;there is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. So maybe you should learn to read. I wasn't talking about amplifying actual light, I was saying that there was no effect remotely similar.
I understood what he meant using the words, in effect. But you had go correct him using your superior knowledge to nit pick.
As an expert in the use of English language, please comment on the sentence "ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received" and tell us all whether or not it states that the effect is amplification of the actual light.
 
I understood what he meant using the words, in effect. But you had go correct him using your superior knowledge to nit pick.
It turns out that if you look at something more closely, there are always details to be nitpicked.

It's a judgement call as to whether an issue is important and needs to be corrected, or is good enough for the context, and any corrections would be nit picking.

For instance, exposure is affected by "T-Stop" not f/stop. But for the kinds of discussions we are having here, most seem to agree that "f/stop" is accurate enough.

Similarly, when we say that the aperture diameter is the focal length divided by the f/stop (i.e. 525mm diameter for a 50mm focal length at f/2), that's not technically accurate. That's the diameter of the virtual entrance pupil. The physical aperture may be a different size. However, for many of the discussions we have here, "aperture diameter" is an appropriate approximation.
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
ISO? It sets the relationship between exposure and output image lightness. That's the short answer, not the one I'd give a beginner.

As to 'amplifying light', where would the additional light come from?
Did you read the words 'in effect' just prior to the words 'amplifying the actual light'?
I did. But as I said the effects are entirely unlike amplifying the light. So the 'in effect' doesn't really make things any better. Then, it was somewhat negated by the use of the word 'actual', which strongly suggests that you think that raising ISO has the effect of amplifying the actual light,
I think ISO is a setting that the camera uses to set the amplification of the signal received.
And what did I follow that with? akin to turning up the volume on your stereo
Turning up the volume on your stereo isn't in effect making the original sound any louder.
No, it doesn't. It amplifies the signal it is receiving. Again, you are demonstrating what some here are complaining about. You could have easliy written a simple paragraph about how this all works. Instead you would rather nitpick than communicate.
If we want to be pedantically ridiculous,
Bye.
You started this. A simple explanation would actually communicate something. You chose pedantic, mini-retorts instead.
 
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It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
ISO? It sets the relationship between exposure and output image lightness. That's the short answer, not the one I'd give a beginner.

As to 'amplifying light', where would the additional light come from?
Did you read the words 'in effect' just prior to the words 'amplifying the actual light'?
I did. But as I said the effects are entirely unlike amplifying the light. So the 'in effect' doesn't really make things any better. Then, it was somewhat negated by the use of the word 'actual', which strongly suggests that you think that raising ISO has the effect of amplifying the actual light,
You keep digging the hole deeper the more you say, as usual. Let's just say you are the smartest one on the forum if that will help you.
And what did I follow that with? akin to turning up the volume on your stereo
Turning up the volume on your stereo isn't in effect making the original sound any louder.
If we want to be pedantically ridiculous,
Bye.
 
They make statements like the exposure triangle has ruined a whole generation of beginners and making it hard for us to teach them the truth. It is difficult to undo the damage done by the exposure triangle so, as a teacher of the right way, I feel my mission is to damn the exposure triangle and expose it for its faults before it ruin anymore beginners.
I think you're exaggerating. I don't think anyone has said that the 'Triangle ' has 'ruined' a whole generation of beginners.
I paraphrased, not quoted.
No-one suggested that you were quoting. Your 'paraphrase' was an exaggeration.
What has been said is that a large proportion of people who learned using the 'Triangle' have ended up getting the basics of photography, such as what is 'exposure', wrong.

From experience it is difficult to get people to unlearn. Some, such as yourself, actively resist learning,
This is what I mean by personal attacks rather that promoting technical accuracy. You prove my case.
Yeah, well, you enter threads for no reason to make personal attacks and observations, so getting sniffy now about someone observing, correctly, that you actively resist learning is taking the biscuit.
others just find that they can't rid themselves of a conceptual model that stops them understanding the basics (such as what is ISO).

The 'mission' is to try to ensure that when beginners ask for the facts about the basics of photography, they get them.
Who appointed you the missionary and why do you have to put others down who don't believe as you do?
Missionaries are rarely appointed. As to why I do it, I think it's a shame that so many photographers starting out are being fed a load of cobblers, so I do what I can to at least ensure that they have some actual knowledge available to them. I know the vendors of cobblers resent it, a lot, but that's actually a sign that I'm doing some good.
They always get fed the Triangle view, it is when someone tries to point out that this is based on a number of fallacies, and tries to present a version which is factually correct that they get attacked, denigrated, insulted by the likes of you.

If it was possible for someone to put the Triangle point of view, then someone to put the factual point of view, without the subsequent attacks, things would be much simple. But what it wouldn't do is satisfy people such as yourself who want to create a situation where people are scared of challenging the Triangle, so that it can be presented to beginners as the sole true way of photography.
The triangle is a film-era concept that is outmoded and has no point of view in today's cameras.
It's actually a digital era concept. Just a bad one.
That is the point to make without going on a crusade to chastise it. But it does make you look smarter to keep preaching against it.
Someone has to be there to provide people who ask to know the basics of photography the right basics, ones that will lead them to understand what they asked to understand. Luckily there are a few of us (and a few more with each of these threads) who are willing and happy to do that, even though the consequence is invariably to draw abuse from Triangle believers.
Is this really why you do it?
Do what?
Perhaps there is a less inflammatory approach to giving your thoughts on a topic than you have used in the past.
It depends who I'm talking to. When I'm, explaining things to a beginner, I'm not inflammatory. When I'm talking to who make a habit of calling me a liar, insulting me and so on, I'll treat them the way they treat me. When I'm talking to people who have denied the very simple theory of photography simply because they didn't know it but didn't want to be wrong, have carried that denial over thread after thread, have cast aspersions at anyone and everyone who dares to actually know the stuff, then maybe I'll have a little fun at their expense. It's not as though they are lily-white paragons of virtue themselves. In fact, as has been said by several people here, it's generally them that stand up and throw the first stones, then whinge about a few coming back in their direction.
You are a wealth of knowledge, but if communicated with a condescending tone, people will shut out your message.
Ah, the 'C' word. By and large, when someone accuses you of being condescending, what it means is you said they were wrong. And to be hones, when I say someone is wrong the first time, I'm generally pretty gentle about it, because everyone is wrong the first time. It's after a bit of the behaviour detailed above that maybe the shrift available gets shorter.
 
It has never been about the message, it has been about the delivery.
For me, it's also about the message. For example, in a recent thread, Great Bustard wrote, "In short, in no way, shape, or form does an "exposure triangle" explain anything or help a beginner understand photography . . ." I believe that to be factually incorrect because I know several hobbyists who read exposure triangle presentations and were helped a great deal in how to get the exposure they want (neither overexposed nor underexposed) and how to use aperture, shutter speed, and ISO settings to affect depth of field, motion blur/camera shake, and noise in their pictures. People who were frustrated with their results became, through exposure triangle principles, enthusiasts who knew how to control their cameras to get the pictures they wanted.
Is it very helpful if what they were taught was wrong, but close enough that it worked in simple situations?
The exposure triangle teaches that f/11, 1/30 second, and ISO 125 will give the same output brightness, but potentially a very different look (depending on the scene/subject), compared with f/2.0, 1/1000, and ISO 125. It teaches that wider apertures give less depth of field, that faster shutter speeds freeze motion, and that, for a given output brightness, higher ISO settings produce noisier images. I don't see anything wrong with that.
 
Personally I don't care about the nitty gritty details, charts or mathematical formulas.

I just want shoot.
In a recent thread, one of the latter comments referred to those who advocate and teach an accurate understanding of how digital cameras work as being, "on a crusade."

I find that sentiment, ironic. The folks who advocate an accurate understanding of how key camera settings (f-stop, shutter speed and ISO) can be used to take control of the image-making process, are presenting an accurate picture of how digital cameras work, We do so - not from a position of faith - but from a position of knowledge.

It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure. ISO does not change the brightness of the scene. It does not change the aperture of lens or the length of time the sensor is exposed to light. ISO does not control the sensitivity of a CMOS chip to light. I think it's fair to say that, by and large, those who advocate wide r knowledge of this share the opinion that it's better to teach an accurate understanding of how a camera works than an inaccurate one.

It is ironic that those who are most critical of this effort are so passionate in their defense of a popular, widely embraced but factually wrong understanding of digital photography. Crusaders, as history teaches, were religious warriors. They went to battle in the name of a religious faith. Their belief in the righteousness of their cause was found, not in a rational assessment of an actual threat, but in faith and blind loyalty to a higher authority.

So, in a debate between people who advocate and teach an accurate understanding of how digital cameras work and others who passionately, almost dogmatically defend a popular but factually wrong understanding of the same subject, one question stands out from the crowd.

Who is being rational and who are the crusaders?
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image. It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity, even though it does not do so technically. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.

It is a simple sentence:

ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received, akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.

Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
No that doesn't tell what it does. There is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. In these discussions, when I've said that the Triangle leads people to think that light is amplified, I've been told that no-one actually thinks that. You've just added to the list of people who clearly do think that.
Then state what it does.
This is exactly the problem with technical discussions on a forum like this. Too much wordsmithing and nit picking. I've seen this play out before. You said in effect amplifying and bobn2 is talking about amplifying actual light which you never said. And the argument goes on talking past each other.
What I actually said in replay was ;there is no effect remotely similar to 'amplifying the actual light'. So maybe you should learn to read. I wasn't talking about amplifying actual light, I was saying that there was no effect remotely similar.
I understood what he meant using the words, in effect. But you had go correct him using your superior knowledge to nit pick.
As an expert in the use of English language, please comment on the sentence "ISO increases the gain in the sensor, in effect amplifying the actual light received" and tell us all whether or not it states that the effect is amplification of the actual light.
As I said in an earlier post, let's just admit that bobn2 is the smartest person on the forum if that will help you feel better about yourself. I don't intend to get into a nit-picking debate with you. You will always to nit pick words to try to prove your superiority.
 
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It has never been about the message, it has been about the delivery.
For me, it's also about the message. For example, in a recent thread, Great Bustard wrote, "In short, in no way, shape, or form does an "exposure triangle" explain anything or help a beginner understand photography . . ." I believe that to be factually incorrect because I know several hobbyists who read exposure triangle presentations and were helped a great deal in how to get the exposure they want (neither overexposed nor underexposed) and how to use aperture, shutter speed, and ISO settings to affect depth of field, motion blur/camera shake, and noise in their pictures. People who were frustrated with their results became, through exposure triangle principles, enthusiasts who knew how to control their cameras to get the pictures they wanted.
Is it very helpful if what they were taught was wrong, but close enough that it worked in simple situations?
The exposure triangle teaches that f/11, 1/30 second, and ISO 125 will give the same output brightness, but potentially a very different look (depending on the scene/subject), compared with f/2.0, 1/1000, and ISO 125. It teaches that wider apertures give less depth of field, that faster shutter speeds freeze motion, and that, for a given output brightness, higher ISO settings produce noisier images. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Actually, most versions of the triangle suggest a relationship, but don’t make it clear what the relationship is. You have to already know the specifics of the relationship.
 
It is a fact that ISO has no direct control over exposure.
See? Here is where the problem lies. Changing the ISO has an effect on the image.
Yes, but not directly on the exposure. In five of eight available modes, It has no effect on exposure, In the other three modes it has an indirect effect. In all modes it has a direct effect on image lightness. In three of those eight modes the indirect effect on exposure cancels out the effect on image lightness. in these three modes the indirect effect on exposure results in a negative net effect on noise. In the other five modes, if there is an effect on noise, it is a positive one (noisiness is reduced).
It applies gain in-camera so the apparent effect is increasing sensitivity,
if input sensitivity was actually increased, then more light would be captured, and the SNR would increase in proportion to the square root of the increased amount of captured light. But that is not what happens, The direct effect on SNR is almost always less, usually much less than what you'd get from an an increase in light. And if the camera is in a mode where it tries to maintain a target lightness, it decreases the exposure, resulting in a net decrease in SNR, though often slightly less than the decrease that would come from a reduction in exposure alone.
even though it does not do so technically
It does not do so at all. And it doesn't have the same net effects.
. And this is where many explainers fall down. So focused on the technical correctness of one aspect that they fail to communicate effectively.
If somebody manages to clearly explain an incorrect model, is their communication effective in a sort of way that is desirable?
It is a simple sentence:
A simple sentence that nonetheless manages to contain three inaccurate statements.
ISO increases the gain in the sensor,
Not necessarily. On a few cameras, variable gain is not used at all. In quite a few other cameras, variable gain is not used to implement certain ISO increases. Increasing ISO, in general, cannot correctly be described as applying gain.
in effect amplifying the actual light received,
No, that is not the effect. If more light was actually received the effect would include an increased SNR proportional to the square root of the increased light received.
akin to turning up the volume on your stereo.
Akin in the sense of third cousin twice removed, perhaps. The analogy is wrong both with respect to mechanism and to effect on output fidelity.
Rather than going into detail on what ISO does not do, simply tell what it does.
It controls the mapping of photodiode charge on to digital numbers. For a given number of photons captured, it determines what number will be stored in the image file.
.So, in a debate between people who advocate and teach an accurate understanding of how digital cameras work
No, this is what some of you do not get. It is not just the information imparted, but the way it is.
Certainly some people do seem to object to the style of presentation instead of the information content. It has been suggested that's because the resistors of the message have finally learned they have no basis to object WRT information content .
You do not impart accurate information if you audience doesn't understand what you are attempting to impart.
Agreed. That's why many of us try to remove barriers to communication, such as incorrect use of technical terminology or incorrect conceptual models.
and others who passionately, almost dogmatically defend a popular but factually wrong understanding of the same subject,
There are those who will defend inaccuracies regardless. I'd wager there are many more that would listen if the experts were better instructors.
If you'd helpfully suggest edits to improve the comprehensibilty of what I write, I'd pay attention.
Knowledge ≠ the ability to impart it well.
indeed.

I'm not sure that I'd agree that the average communication ability of these who explain the problems with the ET is below what is needed to communicate effectively with the average reader here. But I'm sure we could all improve if some constructive feedback was provided. That's as rare as hens teeth though.
 
I understood what he meant using the words, in effect. But you had go correct him using your superior knowledge to nit pick.
It turns out that if you look at something more closely, there are always details to be nitpicked.

It's a judgement call as to whether an issue is important and needs to be corrected, or is good enough for the context, and any corrections would be nit picking.

For instance, exposure is affected by "T-Stop" not f/stop. But for the kinds of discussions we are having here, most seem to agree that "f/stop" is accurate enough.

Similarly, when we say that the aperture diameter is the focal length divided by the f/stop (i.e. 525mm diameter for a 50mm focal length at f/2), that's not technically accurate. That's the diameter of the virtual entrance pupil. The physical aperture may be a different size. However, for many of the discussions we have here, "aperture diameter" is an appropriate approximation.
The level of the discussion determines the accuracy needed. When you talk about cutting wood for framing a house you don't need the same accuracy as cutting wood to make furniture.
 
It's actually a digital era concept. Just a bad one.
no no it is not as I have stated and others it was how I learned to shoot slide film when brightness was determined at the time of capture. It would be helpful if you got this simple fact right.
It''s you that is getting the 'simple fact' wrong, not me. The Triangle was first developed in Bryan Peterson's 'Understanding Exposure' in 1990. He called it, and has consistently called it 'the Photographic Triangle', and in the first form the parts were 'Aperture', 'Shutter speed' and 'Film'. That was it, there was no triangle graphic. In the 2004 second edition, into the era of digital, 'Film' was replaced by 'ISO'. There was still no graphic associated. The evolution into the many different versions of the 'Exposure Triangle' in the years since seems to have been an infection vectored by the Web in the years since. It's definitely a product of the digital age and digital cameras.

So, I'm not sure what is this 'triangle' that was taught to you when you learned slide film. I think you're probably wrongly equating the notion of film speed with the 'triangle'. But film users wouldn't think of film speed being co-equal with aperture and shutter speed, because you loaded a whole roll at a time, you didn't even begin to think about using a different exposure index frame by frame unless you were quite advanced and did your own processing and/or printing.

But let's try to get the discussion straight. Using an exposure index is not the same thing as 'the Triangle'. The triangle seems to bring with it a misunderstanding of just what an exposure index is (likely down to Peterson, who in that very first book wrongly lumped film speed in with exposure).
 

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