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Oh my gosh! Latest info from my dealer.

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First of all I make no claims toward knowing if this rumor or any other is true, though I enjoy the new product gossip with the guilty pleasure of a voyeur. However, saying that Canon wouldn't "kill" the 1DS is shallow thinking based on technology history. Though it is not really competition, there is already the Kodak 14mp at around $5k and you know the other manufacturers are working feverishly to catch up in the megapixel race. So, taking into account Canon's stated goal of being the 800 lb gorilla in the marketplace, I can understand them saying, "OK, we've skimmed the cream from the $7k camera market, now let's flood the place with a $3500 price tag. Sure, we'll make half the profit, but we'll sell 4 times as many and leave our competitors with egg on their faces...AGAIN!"
AMac said:
Thomas Gardner said:
Just got this as I was ordering a 85mm f/1.8.

1D replacement will be 12 mega-pixels and FF coming out at it's
current street price of $3,500.00.
Click to expand...
So Canon are planning to supercede not one, but two perfectly good
pro cameras with one "budget" priced model.

Uh-I don't think so.

Much as I'd applaud anything that knocked the 1Ds's price down, I
don't predict Canon will supercede that camera with anything for a
good while yet. And I tend to suspect the same is true with the 1D.

Why? Because their both excellently specced cameras that Canon can
well afford to let ride with the market.

With the 1Ds, it's a camera that no-one can touch. The only serious
contender on the horizon is the Leica with the 10MP digital back.
Available 2005 if all goes to schedule. LOL. The 14n is just a joke.

I think that people want to 1D replacement so badly they are seeing
things. If Canon really felt there was any competition from the
D2x, I'm pretty sure we would have heard about a 1D replacement by
now.

The fact is that the 2+ year old 1D produces better images.
--
Cheers

Andrew McGregor
Click to expand...
 
Lecter said:
whatever happens I'll be an early adopter.
Click to expand...
You're welcome!

I posted with trepidation as I knew how far out there the specs were. Surpisingly, the boards been very kind to my comment:-)

I'll do a followup in some three weeks when/should the dealer get their brochures. In the mean time I'm wondering how bad of a deal I got on the 85mm f/1.8 that I bought because of the adrenaline of the moment from the salesman's comments.

I think the final on the lense was about $416.00 w/2-day FedEx, should be here Friday. I checked B&H and it seems they have the same USA lense for about $360.00 w/2-day. Gotta watch those knee-jerk, adrenaline filled reactions, this knee-jerk reaction may have cost me $56.00 (US) :-(

Ooops!

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
Tim Chong said:
Don't mind fast FF but hope 1.3x crop is availble as an option...
most PJ I know love the 1.3x crop.
Click to expand...
Is there any reason, through PS that you can't do the same thing? Just crop the image and blow that pixilly degraded image up to full size?

Also, couldn't Canon include a sofeware switch to limit the area of the sensor, so you could get both a FF sensor image at twelve mega-pixels, 3FPS, like the 1Ds and then flip the switch and have a reduced 1.3X crop at five/six mega-pixels, 8 fps? Of course keeping the tank like build of the current 1D.

Would that be so far fetched?

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
med007 said:
If it is CMOS, you are asking Canon to be able to move 4MP at 24
frames per second!
Click to expand...
Now that I've had a chance to sleep on it. How about a FF, twelve mega-pixels at 4 fps (48 mega-pixels) and a 1.3x crop of six mega-pixels at 8 fps (48 mega-pixels). All it would take is a little bit of software remapping to use only five or six megapixels. That way you could have both worlds, a slow, 4 fps FF and a really fast six mega-pixel, 8 fps and if you wish, an even faster, 1.3x crop, using only four mega-pixels at 12 fps.

By doing it in software, you can control the number of pixels, the frame size, the frame rate and still stay within reasonable technological limits.

Not bad for a bug killer:-)

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
Richard Fisher said:
Yes, Canon will be at the convention? So??

Anything else to indicate that they will have an announcement there?
Click to expand...
And the converse to your comment: Is there anything else to indicate that they won't be making a comment?

Why is the converse valid? That's an easy one teach. Because if they're going to take advantage of the holiday buying season, they're gonna have to announce that the product exists and is for sale. And business wise, it's smarter (more sales) to announce pre Thanksgiving then it is to announce in February/March when nobody is buying for anybody but themselves.

Just a thought:-)

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
Joe Ciarcia said:
Thanks for the info Thomas... I'm REALLY looking forward to the
1D's replacement. I'm a little skeptical of the 12mp but Canon's
hardware and firmware engineering team really does have their act
together so I wouldn't put it past them.
Click to expand...
You're welcome:-)

After sleeping on it a night, I came up with the idea that the software people could use the through put of the sensor anyway they want from FF, using all the twelve mega-pixels to a limited 1.3x crop, using only four mega-pixels.

To me, this would make sense as it would give everybody what they want.

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
mike_botelho said:
If the MP count were to go up to 12 AND the sensor became FF, why
not just allow FF 12MP images OR, at the press of a button, cropped
images at a lower amount of MPs?

I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it does make some
sense, doesn't it? I mean, the viewfinder would be larger anyway,
so there could be a smaller frame for the cropped image, and, this
way, you could do, say, 12MP FF images at less FPS or 6MP cropped
images at a faster FPS. This way, you could have high res when you
need it and less res + more speed when you need it without having
to have 2 cameras.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've assumed that both types of
shooting would converge back into one camera as in a film SLR
someday, but I just didn't think it would happen this soon.

But, adopting this type of approach, why wouldn't it be possible now?

I'm not saying any of this is going to happen, but doesn't it sound
plausible (and desirable)? Or am I missing something that would
make it implausible?
Click to expand...
I'm with you on this more then plausible senario. Flip a switch, change a custom function, push a button and you're in gear. Makes perfect sense to me:-)

Any of you software/chip genius's able to say why this senario isn't plausible?

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
It's all about getting people to invest in a system. Once you get brand loyalty and several thousand dollars spent on lens and accessories, you've got a customer for 20 - 30 years.

For the most part, the digital SLR market is still barely 5 years old.

I've never seen a post/thread that reveals what Canon profits from their lens sales vrs bodies. I would think that would answer a lot of questions regarding Canon's intentions...
 
Jay247 said:
Great idea, Mike--

I'd like a camera like that! Use the bandwidth for what you need
it, and do it in the same body. How would the viewfinder in such a
camera look like then? Would it totally crop 1.3x so you don't see
it, or would it just be something like a line on the focussing
screen?
Click to expand...
A simple crop line or a fancy LCD light that shows only when in the 1.3x crop mode:-)
Jay247 said:
What Canon will NOT do is: do both exhibitions keeping stumm about
their new flasgship camera, start shipping it to dealers in secrecy
and then wait for people to find out about it while they're on a
christmas shopping trip. Marketing doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...
And it's only 02Oct03, so there's plenty of time to load the channels and make the announcements.

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
From a commercial standpoint, I'd love a selectable resolution camera. I own both 1D & 1Ds bodies because I just don't need the extra resolution of the 1Ds for every job and sometimes need the shooting speed and extra reach of the 1D. When shooting for a repro size of full page 8.5x11, the 1Ds isn't needed. The larger files just slow things down.

The only glitch in having one camera at such a low price point is the loss of revenue for canon. Why should they do this when their sales were up 75% in the first half of the year? Untill someone beats canon in technology, don't know who that will be, canon is king of the hill. It's only after two years that nikon is catching up with the 1D and it's yet to be proven that they will surpass canon with their new 2DH. I don't think they will.

I think that canon might introduce an intermediate camera between the 1D & 1Ds but a 12mp FF camera isn't likely to appeal to the PJ market. Most likely, the camera will be aimed at the 10D/ prosumer high end market. I also dont see how they can or why they should introduce a 1D type high speed high res camera withy FF sensor at a dirt cheap price when the can sell all the 1Ds bodies as fast as they can produce them. It just doesn't make sense. An intermediate moderate res, 8mp 1.3x body, under $4k makes a lot of sense.
 
AMac said:
Much as I'd applaud anything that knocked the 1Ds's price down, I
don't predict Canon will supercede that camera with anything for a
good while yet. And I tend to suspect the same is true with the 1D.

Why? Because their both excellently specced cameras that Canon can
well afford to let ride with the market.
Click to expand...
Now look at it from a business manufacturing view point.

By making a 12 mega-pixel, FF sensor that has a software adjustable sensor, you'll be able to combine two production lines, to manufacture one sensor body (consentration of efforts), that sells to three different markets. You'll only have to make one type of sensor, not two and concentrate all your development/marketing efforts on one sensor body. You'd sell this one sensor body to PJ/SJ, studios and well heeled hobbiests.

From a business viewpoint, this would be incredibly efficent. You'd kill the competition and your sales, price point wise, would go through the roof for the next couple of years.

Soooooo, from a business point of view, why not?

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
Well, depending on what camera this is, it could be quite a preemptive strike. If Nikon, for example, has a 8-12MP camera in the works that would be priced considerably above $3500, this could be quite a coup. Not to mention that if this camera has 1D-like speed, it would be a D2H killer as well as a D2X killer.

Mike
Michael Ray White said:
AMac said:
Thomas Gardner said:
Just got this as I was ordering a 85mm f/1.8.

1D replacement will be 12 mega-pixels and FF coming out at it's
current street price of $3,500.00.
Click to expand...
So Canon are planning to supercede not one, but two perfectly good
pro cameras with one "budget" priced model.

Uh-I don't think so.

Much as I'd applaud anything that knocked the 1Ds's price down, I
don't predict Canon will supercede that camera with anything for a
good while yet. And I tend to suspect the same is true with the 1D.

Why? Because their both excellently specced cameras that Canon can
well afford to let ride with the market.

With the 1Ds, it's a camera that no-one can touch. The only serious
contender on the horizon is the Leica with the 10MP digital back.
Available 2005 if all goes to schedule. LOL. The 14n is just a joke.

I think that people want to 1D replacement so badly they are seeing
things. If Canon really felt there was any competition from the
D2x, I'm pretty sure we would have heard about a 1D replacement by
now.

The fact is that the 2+ year old 1D produces better images.
--
Cheers

Andrew McGregor
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
DDP-YLS said:
It just doesn't make sense. An intermediate
moderate res, 8mp 1.3x body, under $4k makes a lot of sense.
Click to expand...
And from a business point of view, shutting a couple of manufacturing lines down and have one do-it-all sensor body production line, would carry Canon for two maybe three years before the competition catches up.

Makes sense from a business point of view.

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
I remember seeing this discussed before and was told with the current design it is not possible.

Before you can do any cropping, you must first have the full raw data from the sensor. If the sensor could somehow be divided into sections then I suppose it would be possible. As you may have guessed, I'm no EE.
Thomas Gardner said:
mike_botelho said:
If the MP count were to go up to 12 AND the sensor became FF, why
not just allow FF 12MP images OR, at the press of a button, cropped
images at a lower amount of MPs?

I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it does make some
sense, doesn't it? I mean, the viewfinder would be larger anyway,
so there could be a smaller frame for the cropped image, and, this
way, you could do, say, 12MP FF images at less FPS or 6MP cropped
images at a faster FPS. This way, you could have high res when you
need it and less res + more speed when you need it without having
to have 2 cameras.

Like I said in an earlier post, I've assumed that both types of
shooting would converge back into one camera as in a film SLR
someday, but I just didn't think it would happen this soon.

But, adopting this type of approach, why wouldn't it be possible now?

I'm not saying any of this is going to happen, but doesn't it sound
plausible (and desirable)? Or am I missing something that would
make it implausible?
Click to expand...
I'm with you on this more then plausible senario. Flip a switch,
change a custom function, push a button and you're in gear. Makes
perfect sense to me:-)

Any of you software/chip genius's able to say why this senario
isn't plausible?

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
Click to expand...
--
Jim

'cause life is a lesson – you learn it when you’re through' - LB
 
Michael Ray White said:
First of all I make no claims toward knowing if this rumor or any
other is true, though I enjoy the new product gossip with the
guilty pleasure of a voyeur. However, saying that Canon wouldn't
"kill" the 1DS is shallow thinking based on technology history.
Though it is not really competition, there is already the Kodak
14mp at around $5k and you know the other manufacturers are working
feverishly to catch up in the megapixel race. So, taking into
account Canon's stated goal of being the 800 lb gorilla in the
marketplace, I can understand them saying, "OK, we've skimmed the
cream from the $7k camera market, now let's flood the place with a
$3500 price tag. Sure, we'll make half the profit, but we'll sell 4
times as many and leave our competitors with egg on their
faces...AGAIN!
Click to expand...
Why would canon kill a camera thats selling faster than they can produce them? It doesn't make sense when you're king of the hill with a camera that's still state of the art and people are waiting to buy them. Who other than nikon is competition for canon, not olympus, pentax or contax? Eventually both cameras will be replaced but I don't think it's going to happen yet.
 
Jim-H said:
I remember seeing this discussed before and was told with the
current design it is not possible.

Before you can do any cropping, you must first have the full raw
data from the sensor. If the sensor could somehow be divided into
sections then I suppose it would be possible. As you may have
guessed, I'm no EE.
Click to expand...
And through software, the sensor is divided, before the image is capture. Exactly what you speak of.

Maybe you are an EE and just don't know it:-)

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
DDP-YLS said:
Why would canon kill a camera thats selling faster than they can
produce them? It doesn't make sense when you're king of the hill
with a camera that's still state of the art and people are waiting
to buy them. Who other than nikon is competition for canon, not
olympus, pentax or contax? Eventually both cameras will be replaced
but I don't think it's going to happen yet.
Click to expand...
Why that's a simple on teach.

All sensors created will be used on just one sensor body. You'll be able to shut down one assembly line and combine the two cameras into one. As a business, you not only have sales but you have the obvious business costs and it's the business costs that kill you.

Combining the two lines into one sensor body makes sense. One CMOS manufacturing line and two basic packages; the 300D/10D and the 1D do everything, end all FF sensor body.

From a business point of view, it makes sense.

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
 
From a manufacturing point of view - YES

But from the more important point of view, Profits - NO

Canon will continue to improve specs based on the market and competition. Not what their engineers are capable of.
Thomas Gardner said:
Now look at it from a business manufacturing view point.

By making a 12 mega-pixel, FF sensor that has a software adjustable
sensor, you'll be able to combine two production lines, to
manufacture one sensor body (consentration of efforts), that sells
to three different markets. You'll only have to make one type of
sensor, not two and concentrate all your development/marketing
efforts on one sensor body. You'd sell this one sensor body to
PJ/SJ, studios and well heeled hobbiests.

From a business viewpoint, this would be incredibly efficent.
You'd kill the competition and your sales, price point wise, would
go through the roof for the next couple of years.

Soooooo, from a business point of view, why not?

--
If you don't want to believe me, ignore me:-)
Click to expand...
--
Jim

'cause life is a lesson – you learn it when you’re through' - LB
 
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