Testing cameras like cars

Erik Kaffehr said:

JimKasson said:

Chris Dodkin said:

Your point?

He was a pro F1 racing driver - and drove on an F1 team - maybe you don't understand all of the roles in an F1 team?

If you're trying to discredit him in some way - or my statement - you're barking up the wrong tree Jim

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I'm saying that he wasn't a top-of-the heap F1 driver, that's all.

BTW, Mercedes first and second today in Melbourne. I'm hoping for some competition this season.

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Hi,

Two weeks ago, Ferrari was something like 0.5 s ahead in 8 days of testing. Horses for the courses?

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The concept certainly applies.

I hope that we have at least a two-team competition this year, but I don't think you can draw many conclusions from testing times. Some teams run in qualifying configuration. Some teams run with full fuel loads. Some drivers do a hot section, then back off (at least, what passes for backing off in F1) for the next so as to not show their hand.

Jim

JimKasson said:

Erik Kaffehr said:

JimKasson said:

Chris Dodkin said:

Your point?

He was a pro F1 racing driver - and drove on an F1 team - maybe you don't understand all of the roles in an F1 team?

If you're trying to discredit him in some way - or my statement - you're barking up the wrong tree Jim

Click to expand...

I'm saying that he wasn't a top-of-the heap F1 driver, that's all.

BTW, Mercedes first and second today in Melbourne. I'm hoping for some competition this season.

Click to expand...

Hi,

Two weeks ago, Ferrari was something like 0.5 s ahead in 8 days of testing. Horses for the courses?

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The concept certainly applies.

I hope that we have at least a two-team competition this year, but I don't think you can draw many conclusions from testing times. Some teams run in qualifying configuration. Some teams run with full fuel loads. Some drivers do a hot section, then back off (at least, what passes for backing off in F1) for the next so as to not show their hand.

Jim

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Hi Jim,

Yes, but they also do race simulations where they need to have relevant fuel loads and need to drive offensive enough to get heat in the tires.

I would guess that in the pre season tests Mercedes was sort of collecting data and sorted out problems, they were pretty fast the last day.

F1 is an inspiring combination of different kinds of applied physics and great personalities.

It also shows, a single lap time doesn't win a race.

Best regards

Erik

21 points available this year for the fastest lap times

Chris Dodkin said:

21 points available this year for the fastest lap times

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Looks like we have some F1 fans here on MF forum! Who knew? I wonder if there's a correlation between MF ownership and F1 following...

Jim

Chris Dodkin said:

21 points available this year for the fastest lap times

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There are 25 points for victory and 1 point for fastest lap. Tenth position gives one point.

Obviously, both drivers and teams prefer to get 26 points (25 + 1) for #1 position + fastest lap, but I think all teams prefer 25 + 0 points over 0 + 1 points and a blown up engine, that may cost you a penalty of five starting positions next race.

Best regards

Erik

Erik Kaffehr said:

Chris Dodkin said:

21 points available this year for the fastest lap times

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There are 25 points for victory and 1 point for fastest lap. Tenth position gives one point.

Obviously, both drivers and teams prefer to get 26 points (25 + 1) for #1 position + fastest lap, but I think all teams prefer 25 + 0 points over 0 + 1 points and a blown up engine, that may cost you a penalty of five starting positions next race.

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It's an experiment, and I think a worthy small step in the right direction, especially since the fastest laps are likely to occur late in the race under light fuel loads, when it can turn into a parade with the old rules. Having said that, I agree with you that the drivers in front aren't going to risk a spin for a point.

Jim

Great read, Jim. Thank you for that.

As someone who tests (not reviews) a lot of lenses, I'll take your analogy a step further.

F1 drivers don't tune their own engines or do any of the other mechanical work, nor do they test the latest engines on dynamometers. They have engineers and mechanics to do that.

I do behind the scenes work for dozens of top level Pro photographers and videographers. They don't critically test lenses or do their own optical adjustments either. They have people to do that.

I always find it amusing after I publicly release test results people don't like one of the first comments I get is usually something about showing my photography. That makes about as much sense as choosing your F1 mechanic on the basis of how well he drives the car.

Roger

Bottas risked it all for that extra point - so I see the guy in the lead will push for every possible point

That's why he's the best

He even ignored the team instructions to play safe

did you guys watch a different race?

--
Your time is limited, so don't waste it arguing about camera features - go out and capture memories - Oh, and size does matter - shoot MF

RCicala said:

Great read, Jim. Thank you for that.

As someone who tests (not reviews) a lot of lenses, I'll take your analogy a step further.

F1 drivers don't tune their own engines or do any of the other mechanical work, nor do they test the latest engines on dynamometers. They have engineers and mechanics to do that.

I do behind the scenes work for dozens of top level Pro photographers and videographers. They don't critically test lenses or do their own optical adjustments either. They have people to do that.

I always find it amusing after I publicly release test results people don't like one of the first comments I get is usually something about showing my photography. That makes about as much sense as choosing your F1 mechanic on the basis of how well he drives the car.

Roger

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Hi Roger,

I see your point, but a few of the great F1 drivers of recent were known to hang over the shoulders of their engineers. That applied to Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher, but I also think to Lewis Hamilton.

At one point Lewis Hamilton even posted telemetry data on the net to show while he couldn't beat his team mate in a race.

Quite obviously, the driver discussing data is a great inspiration for the engineers.

Just an anecdote, a few years ago, Honda acquired BAR (Brittish American Racing team). They had two great racing drivers, Jenson Button and Rubens Barichello. The team had failed miserably. That was just before the 2008 recession. In 2009 Honda pulled out and sold the team to Ross Brawn for 1€.

Ross Brawn has found a hole in the regulations, that allowed his team to build a faster car. Jenson Button won the first six races of that season. Barichello did not have any such success. The team found out that there was a difference in driving style. Button was earlier on the brakes, so he got higher temperatures on the brakes early on.

Later in the season, Virgin did change the brake pads so they suited Barichello's driving style better and Barichello did win two races. Still, Jenson Button was world champ.

Ross Brawn sold off his 1€ investment to Mercedes for say 100 M€, but he saved the jobs for say 300-400 employees.

The great loser was of course Honda. But, I think Ross Brawn had the management skill to win F1 world championships and Honda did not.

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles

Chris Dodkin said:

Bottas risked it all for that extra point - so I see the guy in the lead will push for every possible point

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And maybe, just maybe, to stick it to Hamilton.

Member said:

That's why he's the best

He even ignored the team instructions to play safe

did you guys watch a different race?

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Haven't watched it yet. It's stored. Will.

Jim

--
Posted as a regular forum member.
https://blog.kasson.com

JimKasson said:

Chris Dodkin said:

Bottas risked it all for that extra point - so I see the guy in the lead will push for every possible point

Click to expand...

And maybe, just maybe, to stick it to Hamilton.

JimKasson said:

That's why he's the best

He even ignored the team instructions to play safe

did you guys watch a different race?

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Haven't watched it yet. It's stored. Will.

Jim

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Hi,

I don't think Bottas risked it at all. He was on pretty good tires and he could harvest energy for a good lap.

It is almost impossible to get a good lap if you compete for position, or if you are on tires that are marginal.

Best regards

Erik

Erik Kaffehr said:

I don't think Bottas risked it at all. He was on pretty good tires and he could harvest energy for a good lap.

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I haven't watched the race yet, but I would think there is some risk any time you try to pass Hamilton. Not like trying to pass Schumacher, but still...

Erik Kaffehr said:

It is almost impossible to get a good lap if you compete for position, or if you are on tires that are marginal.

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I'm looking forward to getting time to sit down and watch the race. BTW, it won't mean anything to you, but might to Chris: I miss hearing David Hobbs call the race.

Chris Dodkin said:

When they want to directly compare cars, they employ a pro F1 racing driver, the Stig, to put them through their paces on a standard test track. Someone who makes a living driving cars.

That's all you need to know right there - they understand their market and how impactful their reviews of the test cars will be.

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Wikipedia on why The Stig doesn't talk: "Clarkson has written in his newspaper column that the Stig is not permitted to talk or comment on the cars he is given to drive because "the opinions of all racing drivers are completely worthless," going on to explain that, because of their familiarity with cars equipped for track racing, racing drivers believe any and all road cars are on low-scale compared to racing cars".

Leave it to Clarkson to make a point with some truth to it in a completely over-the-top fashion.

In Clarkson's current show, we had a -- possibly fake -- drawling NASCAR driver who performed The Stig's role while bad mouthing any car that wasn't Amurrican. Now we have Abby, who also is silent. All these drivers look competent on the test tracks, and are probably good at fulfilling their roles as consistent testers to show the differences between the cars they test.

The question that relates to the analogy of the OP is: how useful are lap time comparisons in the purchase decision for a street car? If the differences are huge, probably they're worth something besides bragging rights. If the differences are small, maybe very little. Certainly very little to me, except for the odd track day, I'm going to be driving at 7/10 on public roads, not 10/10 on a track. The parallels to photo testing were made in the OP.

The other issue, which also has parallels in camera testing, is how well the extraneous variables are controlled. In the case of Top Gear and the The Grand Tour, apparently not well at all. Track temperatures and wind conditions seem to be all over the map, and sometimes they test in the wet. It's not clear what rubber the cars are riding on. Street tires? Shaved treads? Compounds? Who knows? BTW, running full-tread street tires around a racetrack is an invitation to chunking. I know that very well, because I ruined a $1100 set of tires just that way in the early 1980s in a 928.

Jim

Reuters disagrees with you, as do I

Valtteri Bottas won the season-opening Australian Grand Prix for Mercedes with the fastest lap on Sunday and in the process achieved a Formula One first, while also ignoring team instructions to play safe.

The Finn said he had been determined to get the maximum score, despite the risk of trying to set a fastest lap on worn tyres and being told before the race not to try and get it if in a podium position.

Hobbo was the voice of F1 - well after Murray Walker perhaps

You're missing the whole point of the Stig

The Stig has the skills to differentiate closely matched performance where the journalists skills would not allow that to be revealed - that's exactly why he features in Top Gear.

The analogy is very relevant to current camera testing - only we don't have a Stig in the camera world at this point.

Chris Dodkin said:

Hobbo was the voice of F1 - well after Murray Walker perhaps

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I was privileged to hang around David a bit in the pits when I was shooting Can Am. Funny guy then. Funny guy now. I miss hearing him.

Cool - loved shooting motorsports as well

UK was great for F1, Touring Cars, Porsche Cup, and Superbikes, and the US for Porsche and GT Prototypes - made for interesting weekends


JPS F1 Lotus - Brands Hatch UK


BTCC Brands Hatch UK


Prototypes - Fontana CA


Superbikes - Rockingham UK


BTCC - Brands Hatch UK


Shooting position Fontana CA


Porsche Cup - Brands Hatch UK


BTCC Knockhill Scotland


Your's truly - trackside, Silverstone F1 circuit UK

Makes shooting models seem easy!

--
Your time is limited, so don't waste it arguing about camera features - go out and capture memories - Oh, and size does matter - shoot MF

Chris Dodkin said:

Cool - loved shooting motorsports as well

UK was great for F1, Touring Cars, Porsche Cup, and Superbikes, and the US for Porsche and GT Prototypes - made for interesting weekends


JPS F1 Lotus - Brands Hatch UK


Your's truly - trackside, Silverstone F1 circuit UK

Makes shooting models seem easy!

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That's certainly a bit of commonality in our background that I would never have guessed!

I have very few images from my Can Am days. First off, I was just a hired gun: show up at the race course on Thursday, be issued cameras, lenses, and film, and turn in the film to the AutoWeek guy at start/finish after the Sunday main event. I'd first see my images in the magazine, and not even credited to me, but to the guy I worked for. Second, at some point I tossed almost all the negs from a few rolls that I brought myself.

One of the great things about the old Can Am days was the freedom that the photographers had. You could take pictures from anywhere that you could get the corner chief for that corner to let you stand. And once they realized that you would stick to your agreements with them, they were flexible. There was a tree on the outside of turn 6 (now 8) at Laguna Seca (the first half of the corkscrew) that I used to climb up into and shoot the exit of turn 5. It was an angle that I'd never seen published. After I'd been doing it a while, I found out why. A car spun into the haybales at the base of the tree, and I looked straight down on the driver trying to get out while I prayed that the car wouldn't catch on fire. I never went up there again.


Jim Hall


Bruce and Denny


Mark


Mark in 6, looking at the apex of 6A; I cropped this to emphasize the verticality of the corner (it's since been tamed somewhat). By the way, when I'm driving, I don't find the corkscrew that frightening, but the really scary corner to me is the next one, at the bottom of the hill.


Dan

Jim

--
Posted as a regular forum member.
https://blog.kasson.com

Erik Kaffehr said:

Just to say, Michael was a bit irritated with Hasselblad on a few occasions:

• When the only zoom lens he had in Namibia converted itself into two lenses.
• Hasselblad 'closed' the system, turning his Phase One back into a future paperweight.

Regarding the lens falling apart, Michael found out that the problem was quite frequents and also known to Hasselblad.

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Years ago it was common and ridiculously easy for manufacturers to be aware of major defects in their products and deny/hide it and continue to sell them for years. At my company the joke when we called into tech support was they would always tell us "we've never heard of this before", and we always suspected they were lying through their teeth.

When the Internet came about the ability to hide defects dropped dramatically. Now there was finally a public place you could report defects and find out if numerous others were also experiencing them.