Using Voigtländer lenses on Nikon Z-which mount?

Bohemien

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Hi all,

I really like the rendering (and look :-) ) of the Cosina/Voigtländer (CV) lenses. Would like to get the 40mm f/1.2 for my Z6. Now CV has announced adapters for both M- and E-mount lenses to the Z-mount (and M-mount adapters are also available from other brands).

Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)

Thanks!
 
Solution
Hi all,

I really like the rendering (and look :-) ) of the Cosina/Voigtländer (CV) lenses. Would like to get the 40mm f/1.2 for my Z6. Now CV has announced adapters for both M- and E-mount lenses to the Z-mount (and M-mount adapters are also available from other brands).

Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)

Thanks!
As noted above, probably go with the M version. The M version of the 40 Nokton is smaller and less expensive than the E version. This is one consideration. If you had other Voigtländer lenses in E mount it might make sense to get the E to Z adapter and then go with the E version.

If you're starting from...
  • as I understand, the E-mount adapter transmits the lens data, so I'd have correct EXIF data
If it does transmit lens data, that's barely enough electronics to make E worthwhile... and you'd have to buy a probably $400 adapter from TechArt to get that data on a Z. Now if you were gonna get the TechArt adapter anyway....
Uh-no I wasn't, thanks for pointing that out!
  • and it's optimized for a thicker sensor stack
That would really surprise me. They'd need to modify the design, and I very much doubt they would do that.
There's a long thread about the Voigtländer 40mm on FM, where people who use this lens on Sony bodies show differences in (corner) performance of the VM- and E-mount versions of the lens, that's where I got this from.
I have a number of Voigtlander lenses (LM and LTM) and a couple of cheap LTM Leicas as well as a huge swirl of “Russian” LTM lenses but I use them on M4/3 bodies. These bodies have some reputation for a thick sensor stack that these lenses are not opimised for but are also 2x crop factor - I have never been worried that the sensor stack reduces the lens performance. Maybe I am not critical enough or likely to be amazed at what a FF sensor could do for me?

My 1950’s Hektor 135/4.0 has been oh so sharp on M4/3 since I cleaned the hazy lenses - any sharper on FF and I could cut myself :)
 
I have a number of Voigtlander lenses (LM and LTM) and a couple of cheap LTM Leicas as well as a huge swirl of “Russian” LTM lenses but I use them on M4/3 bodies. Maybe I am not critical enough or likely to be amazed at what a FF sensor could do for me?
As far as I understand it, the problem seems to affect the corners, especially on wider angle lenses (due to optical refraction). I'd guess that on the smaller M4/3 sensor you won't see it, as you're not "using" light rays coming in at wider angles?
My 1950’s Hektor 135/4.0 has been oh so sharp on M4/3 since I cleaned the hazy lenses - any sharper on FF and I could cut myself :)
Yep, I also really enjoy my vintage lenses, especially since I have the Z6. I love to explore the specialties in rendering these vintage beauties show. :-)
 
Hi all,

I really like the rendering (and look :-) ) of the Cosina/Voigtländer (CV) lenses. Would like to get the 40mm f/1.2 for my Z6. Now CV has announced adapters for both M- and E-mount lenses to the Z-mount (and M-mount adapters are also available from other brands).

Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)

Thanks!
M mount will be more universal than E, Z, R, L, or M4/3, but also has no possibility of EXIF in the future.

That said, I don't think it's likely that Voigtlander will produce the 65/2 Macro APO or 110/2.5 Macro APO in M mount, so if those lenses are of any interest to you, you'd probably be better off with the E mount versions(or a combination of both).

There is a possibility that Voigtlander will port their E mount line to Z mount and possibly to R and L mount, in the next few years, this fall should be an obvious time to announce development or production. As the installed base of users of the new mounts increase, the 3rd party manufactures will find it irresistible to join the party.

I'm also expecting to see Batis and/or Loxia eventually end up in the other mounts.
 
Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)
M mount will be more universal than E, Z, R, L, or M4/3, but also has no possibility of EXIF in the future.
Fujifilm has a semi-smart M adapter, and Leica sells the M-Adapter L for the SL (and possibly Panasonic and Sigma L-Mount cameras too).

There was briefly another smart adapter from Leica M to Sony E-Mount:


Sadly, it only seemed to be available for a couple of years or so. These adapters can provide the focal length and maximum aperture to the camera for EXIF and other purposes, but not the actual aperture in use.

I wonder if anyone else will introduce something similar?

--
Dave, HCL
 
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I have a number of Voigtlander lenses (LM and LTM) and a couple of cheap LTM Leicas as well as a huge swirl of “Russian” LTM lenses but I use them on M4/3 bodies. Maybe I am not critical enough or likely to be amazed at what a FF sensor could do for me?
As far as I understand it, the problem seems to affect the corners, especially on wider angle lenses (due to optical refraction). I'd guess that on the smaller M4/3 sensor you won't see it, as you're not "using" light rays coming in at wider angles?
Photography is a qaere (to borrow my interpretation of Old English) business - it seems that we fuss and carry on always looking for a lens/recording-medium that creates more perfection in an image.

I simply look at an image and I either like it or don’t like it. I certainly don’t go specifically into it to see if the image that I like is a perfect rendition or if the image, once determined so, becomes a flawed capture for whatever reason and it now becaomes something that I do not like any more.

I have written several posts about the “philosophy of photography” and they seem to go down a bit like lead balloons. Not that the words were ignored and not digested by some.

All throught the age of photography there have always been great images where the level of perfection would not pass the “expert’s test” of present day image quality. And these were all taken using more difficult to use equipment to the point where one wonders why they can be so well regarded considering the endless quest for image perfection which is much more easily obtained today.

In many ways I think it is just so that we have something to talk about.

Over the ages the necessarily soft and moving painterly “Pictorialist” type images were replaced by the “f64” group and Ansel Adams’ rigorous processing of perfection.

There will always be two schools of thought in photography - that which seeks perfection of replication and that which predominately seeks to move the psyche of the viewer. Not that a perfect replication cannot do this. But the import and feeling generated by an image can overcome technical errors - the photographers job is to preserve a moment in time at a particular place in time and it will never be perfectly done unless one was actually there - and memory is an even more imperfect recordong medium which is subject to fading and embellishment.

I have pointed out that every image captured cannot have perfect perspective unless the camera is held horizontally not only sideways but fore and aft. However, whilst tilted horizons are the first error of the new user a fore and aft tilt is readily (and always) accepted unless it is architectural. Surely we should examine every image caught for instances of fore and aft tilt as well? These images are just as “imperfect” as softer edges?

Surely all perspective distortions - even those from ultra wide lenses - should be unacceptable?

But my “cause” is like a donkey braying at the moon as I am sure that “errors” that we cannot see are not errors at all - just as much as I don’t go looking for errors in captures that move my brain as “good”.

The reason why we “don’t” think that there is an error in an image of “Aunt Philadelphia” is we know that the person in the image is she even though it doesn’t look quite like her from that angle of capture. We often don’t like images taken of us because they often don’t flatter us from a particular angle. In real life our brain directs our recognition (this came from a signwriter who shared the wisdom of his craft with me). It is trained to recognise straight lines and we “know” that buildings are mostly made up of horizontal and vertical lines and it rebels when it sees something that “is a building” but the perspective and angle of capture makes a caught image look “odd”. However rounded shapes are easier and the brain is more accommodating in its recognition procedure. People we know are always recognised by our brain simply because we know them and if an odd angle of view is included our brain will still go through its recognition algorithm. “Oh hello George, I didn’t recognise you at first from down there ....”

On the other hand a photograph is a fixed rendition of a moment in time and we can see more clearly that this person we know really well can sometimes look quite different in a photographic capture. There will be even more reasons for this than an angle of view and a focal length and it is a subject well beyond a long post in a photographic forum.

But in the end there is nothing wrong with the science of perfectly rendered photographic capture. Once good enough image capture and replication has been achieved then any further progress is just for the interest in what can be done. For surely the brain will always try and adjust what we see by comparing it with what we know.
My 1950’s Hektor 135/4.0 has been oh so sharp on M4/3 since I cleaned the hazy lenses - any sharper on FF and I could cut myself :)
Yep, I also really enjoy my vintage lenses, especially since I have the Z6. I love to explore the specialties in rendering these vintage beauties show. :-)
--
Tom Caldwell
 
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I'm also expecting to see Batis and/or Loxia eventually end up in the other mounts.
I think this will depend entirely on how open other brands are in sharing how their mounts work electronically. Canon & Nikon don't have encouraging histories with this, and I doubt Zeiss will spend time on reverse engineering systems that can be easily strategically "broken." The Loxia lenses? Maybe. The Batis AF lenses? I suspect likely not.

The L alliance, with Leica already participating, also strikes me as a system Zeiss would avoid unless invited to join.

-Dave-
 
Hi all,

I really like the rendering (and look :-) ) of the Cosina/Voigtländer (CV) lenses. Would like to get the 40mm f/1.2 for my Z6. Now CV has announced adapters for both M- and E-mount lenses to the Z-mount (and M-mount adapters are also available from other brands).

Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)

Thanks!
M mount will be more universal than E, Z, R, L, or M4/3, but also has no possibility of EXIF in the future.

That said, I don't think it's likely that Voigtlander will produce the 65/2 Macro APO or 110/2.5 Macro APO in M mount, so if those lenses are of any interest to you, you'd probably be better off with the E mount versions(or a combination of both).

There is a possibility that Voigtlander will port their E mount line to Z mount and possibly to R and L mount, in the next few years, this fall should be an obvious time to announce development or production. As the installed base of users of the new mounts increase, the 3rd party manufactures will find it irresistible to join the party.

I'm also expecting to see Batis and/or Loxia eventually end up in the other mounts.
I tend to get a bit philosphical at times (sorry).

I was nearly hung by the gills with a huge collection of EF mount lenses.

... as an early adopter of digital cameras I decided to make a good collection of gear in the new capture medium - in fact my first “good” camera was a Canon D60 (not a 60D) if anyone could remember that far back. In any case the first dslr bodies certainly aced the rest of the field at the time. Good lenses helped. But years and six dslr bodies later I thirsted for a Canon FF ML and was suitably disappointed when Canon “refused” to make one and “insisted” that their loyal EF lens owners kept buying upgraded dslr bodies (at considerable cost) for a further 10 years. (Then asked them to buy a completely new range of lenses). I dont think I will ever forgive Canon for this. Luckily “someone” started to make electronic EF lens adapters and the EF went from being lock-in mout to “the Universal” electronic interchangeable mount.

But what we tend to forget is that for many years EF and Nikon lenses made for 135 film were used on dslr camera bodies that used aps-c crop-size sensors. Nobody queried this much at all. If anything the cropping effect removes the softer edges that are much worried about. Canon and Nikon kept making lenses that were now capable of covering FF sensors but it was quite a while before the camera bodies included a FF sensor and dslr bodies with aps-c sensors continued to be made in parallel without particular comment by users.

But the yearning was there for the FF sensor so that “old lenses” could be used at the focal length they were made for - nothing wrong with that other than the FF sensor has now been made “the standard” and anything crop-sensor is now being second or third rate despite being proved for nearly 20 years as being good enough for serious use.

This is not so much a negative for the FF sensor but more a wonderment that we should so easily shrug off quite capable smaller sensor gear which has its place.

We (the photography user industry) have created a demand for the necessarily larger and more expensive FF kit - which like medium format film kit is for when only the very best will do - and the industry is whooping it up as the best thing since button up boots and only too glad to oblige as it probably sees it as a last refuge against the mobile phone camera.

Besides with all these brand new lens mount formats there will be a lot of new lenses to be made and sold. Wunderbar!

I do find it a bit strange that those who have realised that adapted legacy MF lenses have given a new range of freedom of mount choice and yet one might think that sticking with LM, or even EF, will allow users of these lenses to pick and choose between all these new lens mounts (in time) whereas buying the same lenses ported to one of the new FF ML lens mounts will be a lifetime lock-in to that mount system and whatever camera bodies that manufacturer chooses to make for it.

My EF experience leaves me very unwilling to chance my lens mount investment to the vagarities of what any one new lens mount future might hold.
 
Hi all,

I really like the rendering (and look :-) ) of the Cosina/Voigtländer (CV) lenses. Would like to get the 40mm f/1.2 for my Z6. Now CV has announced adapters for both M- and E-mount lenses to the Z-mount (and M-mount adapters are also available from other brands).

Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)

Thanks!
Mounts I never had a stuck lens in the adapter:

Leica R, Leica M, Pentax K, Nikon F, Olympus OM, Canon FD, Rollei QBM.

Mounts I had (rarely) a lens stuck in the adapter:

Minolta MD, Contax/Yashica.
 
Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)
M mount will be more universal than E, Z, R, L, or M4/3, but also has no possibility of EXIF in the future.
Fujifilm has a semi-smart M adapter, and Leica sells the M-Adapter L for the SL (and possibly Panasonic and Sigma L-Mount cameras too).
6 bit isn't exactly EXIF, as it relies on the adapter or camera to be programed to know what the 6 bit code is telling it.
There was briefly another smart adapter from Leica M to Sony E-Mount:

Yeah, I have the Phigmenttech M adapter, I wish more adapters had an infinity adjustment like this adapter.

The main issue is that all your lenses and adapters that use it need 6 bit coding, most of mine don't have it.
Sadly, it only seemed to be available for a couple of years or so. These adapters can provide the focal length and maximum aperture to the camera for EXIF and other purposes, but not the actual aperture in use.
It will also trigger the Focus zoom when you turn the focus ring, which I'm not a fan of anyway.
I wonder if anyone else will introduce something similar?
 
Photography is a qaere (to borrow my interpretation of Old English) business - it seems that we fuss and carry on always looking for a lens/recording-medium that creates more perfection in an image.
Don't get me wrong-"perfection" for me is not about ultimate sharpness, all the way into the extreme corners. I think we're on the same page enjoying e.g. vintage lenses especially *because* they have "flaws", which lead to beautiful (e.g. glow), interesting (e.g. "bubbly" bokeh) or downright "funky" rendering (e.g. Helios 44).
I simply look at an image and I either like it or don’t like it. I certainly don’t go specifically into it to see if the image that I like is a perfect rendition or if the image, once determined so, becomes a flawed capture for whatever reason and it now becaomes something that I do not like any more.
Completely with you on this. I was exclusively referring to the Voigtländer 40mm, from which I'd seen photos done with the VM version on a Sony body, and where the corners were "sticking out" as really blurry with the rest of the photo looking crisp and very 3-dimensional. So naturally before buying I'm wondering if I'd be better off with the VM or E version on my Z6.

BTW, I'm pretty much decided on the VM version after the helpful advice in this thread, so thanks again everybody! :-)
I have written several posts about the “philosophy of photography” and they seem to go down a bit like lead balloons. Not that the words were ignored and not digested by some.
They are (not ignored, and digested), in my case, don't worry-I can only speak for myself, but when I read a long post with so many aspects in it, I feel I'd have to write a long reply myself, which keeps me from even starting to post when I have a busy week (as this one, sadly).

So, I for myself enjoyed reading your "essay" and agree with what you said. There's much more to a photo than technical perfection, story and composition springing to mind as the first things to appreciate. I'd love to discuss this further, alas it's late again and tomorrow will be another long day. :-( Thank you for your write-up though, I really enjoyed the read!
 
Hi all,

I really like the rendering (and look :-) ) of the Cosina/Voigtländer (CV) lenses. Would like to get the 40mm f/1.2 for my Z6. Now CV has announced adapters for both M- and E-mount lenses to the Z-mount (and M-mount adapters are also available from other brands).

Would it make more sense to get the M-mount version of the lens or the E-mount version? (Not intending to own a Leica or Sony body in the future.)

Thanks!
Ever since I heard this news (last week via FM...), I’ve been looking at M glass for my Z7, such as the CV 40/1.2 you mention, a 21 SEM or even the 28/2 Summicron. I’n slowly moving to mostly MF glass, and this has just cemented my interest in reaching beyond Z and F. Meanwhile, I’ll find a Novoflex adapter... no telling when those new adapters will arrive, though I hope that reading the posts following this first one in the thread will have some information along those lines. :)

--
Moretti
"Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before."
 
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Ever since I heard this news (last week via FM...), I’ve been looking at M glass for my Z7, such as the CV 40/1.2 you mention, a 21 SEM or even the 28/2 Summicron. I’n slowly moving to mostly MF glass, and this has just cemented my interest in reaching beyond Z and F. Meanwhile, I’ll find a Novoflex adapter... no telling when those new adapters will arrive, though I hope that reading the posts following this first one in the thread will have some information along those lines. :)
The M to Z mount adapters are already available. I got the Novoflex M39 adapter for the Z6 and it's well built but lets me focus a little past infinity, just like the M42 adapter I have from Kipon.

I actually prefer the Kipon adapter because it's adjustable via 3 little screws. This will not change flange distance but you can turn the M42 side of the adapter so that the distance scale of the lens will be pointing upward correctly (90 degrees to the base of the camera).
 
Ever since I heard this news (last week via FM...), I’ve been looking at M glass for my Z7, such as the CV 40/1.2 you mention, a 21 SEM or even the 28/2 Summicron. I’n slowly moving to mostly MF glass, and this has just cemented my interest in reaching beyond Z and F. Meanwhile, I’ll find a Novoflex adapter... no telling when those new adapters will arrive, though I hope that reading the posts following this first one in the thread will have some information along those lines. :)
The M to Z mount adapters are already available. I got the Novoflex M39 adapter for the Z6 and it's well built but lets me focus a little past infinity, just like the M42 adapter I have from Kipon.

I actually prefer the Kipon adapter because it's adjustable via 3 little screws. This will not change flange distance but you can turn the M42 side of the adapter so that the distance scale of the lens will be pointing upward correctly (90 degrees to the base of the camera).
Thanks, Markus. I was looking at the Novoflex adapters, but now that Voigtlander has announced their own ZM and VM adapters, I’m hesitant to buy a Voigtlander M mount (e.g., 40/1.2) before their own adapter is released. I have a month or two before I’m ready to buy any new glass anyway (I don’t currently own any M mounts and will have to find new homes for a couple of my current lenses), so I have a little time to learn/decide which direction I’ll start in. I’m pretty much expecting at this point to start at 28mm. Last night I mounted my Nikkor 28/1.4D to my Z for the first time, but too tired to really make an effort at seeing how it felt; I’m hoping this weekend to get out and about with it as it will provide a benchmark for me as I consider the relative merits of a 28 Elmarit or Cron, for example.
 
Thanks, Markus. I was looking at the Novoflex adapters, but now that Voigtlander has announced their own ZM and VM adapters, I’m hesitant to buy a Voigtlander M mount (e.g., 40/1.2) before their own adapter is released.
I think the price hasn't been announced yet, but the Voigtländer adapters seem to be pretty expensive compared to other options. I wouldn't hesitate to just get the Kipon M adapter.

That said, if you buy the Voigtländer, please post your experience. :-) I am especially curious about the close-focusing version of the adapter...
I’m pretty much expecting at this point to start at 28mm. Last night I mounted my Nikkor 28/1.4D to my Z for the first time, but too tired to really make an effort at seeing how it felt; I’m hoping this weekend to get out and about with it as it will provide a benchmark for me as I consider the relative merits of a 28 Elmarit or Cron, for example.
Ah, that's a beautiful lens. I've never owned it, but follow the picture thread on FM, I really like the rendering of that one.

My go-to 28mm (besides the Coolpix A, way underappreciated small camera with a great lens IMHO, which I use for hiking trips when every gram counts) is the f/2 AI-S. Wonderful lens, I have been using it a lot on the D600, mainly for travel/landscapes.

--
Regards, Markus
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lebohemien/
 
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  • as I understand, the E-mount adapter transmits the lens data, so I'd have correct EXIF data
If it does transmit lens data, that's barely enough electronics to make E worthwhile... and you'd have to buy a probably $400 adapter from TechArt to get that data on a Z. Now if you were gonna get the TechArt adapter anyway....
  • the E-mount version has a shorter MFD (35cm vs. 50cm for the VM version)
The shorter MFD is surprising,
Is it? Virtually all M mount lenses have focusing ranges from infinity to 0.5m because they have to couple to that "rangefinder" thingy. Leica made a compromise to balance close focusing, focus throw, and parallax. You can only compensate for so much parallax before it starts to seriously screw with your composition.

SLRs have no parallax, and back in the day they were not as fast as rangefinders, and people weren't as critical about focusing rangefinders ("f8 and be there", etc). SLRs were the cameras of science, rangefinders were the cameras of art.

Everything I own that qualifies as a "normal" goes to 0.45m (Nikon 45mm f2.8 AiP, Nikon 50mm f1.4 AF-D, Voigtlander 40mm f2 Ultron SL in Nikon mount, Voigtlander 58mm f1.4 SL in Nikon mount) except for the 28-70mm f2.8 AF-S which goes to 0.33m, and the 40mm f1.2 Voigtlander in M mount, which goes to 0.5.

The wides, on the other hand...

My faithful 20mm f2.8 AF-D goes down to 0.25m, as does the 14-24mm f2.8.
but quite possible. Basically, that would correspond to it being pushed back in the mount to make-up the difference in flange positions.
Wrong direction: you extend farther out to focus closer.
  • and it's optimized for a thicker sensor stack
That would really surprise me. They'd need to modify the design, and I very much doubt they would do that.
They didn't. It's Sony fanboys contaminating the information pool, again. (Although not as bad as the wikipedia war on "translucent")
 
Basically, that would correspond to it being pushed back in the mount to make-up the difference in flange positions.
Wrong direction: you extend farther out to focus closer.
I was referring to it being pushed back further in the M mount as compared to E because the E flange is closer to the sensor.
  • and it's optimized for a thicker sensor stack
That would really surprise me. They'd need to modify the design, and I very much doubt they would do that.
They didn't. It's Sony fanboys contaminating the information pool, again.
Huh? Are you agreeing with me or trying to insult me?
(Although not as bad as the wikipedia war on "translucent")
If you are talking about Sony's mysterious choice of calling a pellicle mirror an SLT, well, I can only chalk that up to the combination of Sony marketing wanting a new name and not having enough native English speakers involved in the naming process.
 
Basically, that would correspond to it being pushed back in the mount to make-up the difference in flange positions.
Wrong direction: you extend farther out to focus closer.
I was referring to it being pushed back further in the M mount as compared to E because the E flange is closer to the sensor.
K. That makes sense.
  • and it's optimized for a thicker sensor stack
That would really surprise me. They'd need to modify the design, and I very much doubt they would do that.
They didn't. It's Sony fanboys contaminating the information pool, again.
Huh? Are you agreeing with me or trying to insult me?
Agreeing with you. My insults are few, but never subtle.
(Although not as bad as the wikipedia war on "translucent")
If you are talking about Sony's mysterious choice of calling a pellicle mirror an SLT, well, I can only chalk that up to the combination of Sony marketing wanting a new name and not having enough native English speakers involved in the naming process.
Indeed. I think they chose the initials first, then backtracked to find words to fit them.
 
Is it? Virtually all M mount lenses have focusing ranges from infinity to 0.5m because they have to couple to that "rangefinder" thingy. Leica made a compromise to balance close focusing, focus throw, and parallax. You can only compensate for so much parallax before it starts to seriously screw with your composition.
...
I did a double-take on the 0.5mm... I thoughtlessly just assumed an across-the-board 0.7m. So I checked most of mine and wide(r) lenses seem to be 0.5m, normals usually 0.7m and (short) teles 0.9m. However, it isn't consistent, Ziess, Leica, Voigtlander are all different across different lines, some 0.5m, some 0.7m...They all tend to be optimized for a 2m-3m subject distance (wide open on an M), so it isn't something that one dwells on when framing...

Always learning... ; - )
 

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