Reading mode: Light Dark

Warning! Rant about Win10!

Go to last post
XiaoDeer said:
afterburn said:
You're still missing the point. Yes, you can view and delete the data they collected.
Click to expand...
How? I login to Windows with a local account. I don't have or want a Microsoft account.
Click to expand...
That doesn't matter. The PC I'm on at the moment has a Local account, and I still have the Delete option.

Look under "Settings", "Privacy", "Diagnostics and Feedback".

I can "View" and "Delete" the data. Try it and see what happens.
XiaoDeer said:
XiaoDeer said:
That said, there is nothing on your computer or phone that Microsoft could be interesting in short of uploading your actual data that you haven't given away to Facebook if you use Facebook, WhatsApp or Instagram just by loggin into their service *once*.
Click to expand...
Not close to true.

I have lots of personal data on my desktop (e.g. financial information, tax returns etc). I would never dream of giving any of it to Facebook or any other social network. This data never goes onto my phone, tablet or laptop either.

My desktop is my one completely private electronic repository and I want that data to be as private as a locked file cabinet or safe. It's not there to be mined by Microsoft or any other corporation that feels like it. What is so unreasonable about that?

But the Windows 10 fanboys seem to feel I am a tinfoil hat lunatic that doesn't understand modern technology or how to use it correctly. That I'm crazy for believe Big Corporations can be trusted with the keys to the cookie jar when all available evidence demonstrates otherwise.

Either THEY don't understand
Click to expand...
Perhaps the fact that you didn't know about the very clear options I see in "Privacy" suggests you may not have as full an understanding of Windows 10 as you may think.

You can see more about these settings at:

Loading…

www.ghacks.net
XiaoDeer said:
or they're paid shills for MS.
Click to expand...
Dang! My checks never seem to arrive. :-(
 
Archer66 said:
Jeadm said:
You think everyone is up in arms about Microsoft and Windows now, just wait until they release the new Windows 12 later this year with emphasis on VR 🙄. Minds are really going to blow.

https://windowsreport.com/microsoft-windows-12/

I'll leave everyone here to jump right on it.
Click to expand...
It's released on April 1st ?
Click to expand...
Yes, April 1, 2017, with this note right on the page, lest anyone take it seriously:

Editor’s Note: This post was originally published on April Fool’s Day. As you probably noticed, this article is an April Fool’s Day prank. We hope you enjoyed the joke.

We also noticed that some of you got upset after reading this article. Keep in mind that it’s only a joke and should be taken as such.
 
Patco said:
Archer66 said:
Jeadm said:
You think everyone is up in arms about Microsoft and Windows now, just wait until they release the new Windows 12 later this year with emphasis on VR 🙄. Minds are really going to blow.

https://windowsreport.com/microsoft-windows-12/

I'll leave everyone here to jump right on it.
Click to expand...
It's released on April 1st ?
Click to expand...
Yes, April 1, 2017, with this note right on the page, lest anyone take it seriously:

Editor’s Note: This post was originally published on April Fool’s Day. As you probably noticed, this article is an April Fool’s Day prank. We hope you enjoyed the joke.

We also noticed that some of you got upset after reading this article. Keep in mind that it’s only a joke and should be taken as such.
Click to expand...
The article could have pulled even more chains if it had claimed that Windows 12 would introduce mandatory paid subscriptions. :-)
 
It might be useful, but it is a right? It is always presented as a bonus to the users, who pay money for the right to monitored. I think the cons outstrip the pros. There is no openness on what is collected, how long it is stored and what it is used for.

I think the usefulness is not really that much of a benefit to the development of the product as much as it contributes to development of revenue.
 
absquatulate said:
afterburn said:
absquatulate said:
Austinian said:
XiaoDeer said:
Austinian said:
Member said:
Interesting stuff from an academic perspective but it fails to empower anyone to take control of the process as advocated by the other posters.
Click to expand...
Didn't even read the page I linked, eh? Where it says:

"Tip: An extra, German-only, paper is available that includes system-based and network-based options to limit or block the collection or transfer of Telemetry data to Microsoft."
Click to expand...
Yes, I looked at it. Don't understand German but I understood many of the registry, group policy and network references.
Member said:
Grab it and use online translation tools to enable you to implement their blocks. Then publish their techniques for all the complainers to use.
Click to expand...
Herculean effort for a low return. Not worth it. Easier to air gap my Win 10 machine or run it in a VM with no network adapter.
Member said:
If I was half as upset about telemetry as some posters here claim to be, that's what I'd do. But it's all talk, no action, till I see someone actually do this.
Click to expand...
Once again, it's a simple and straightforward request: give those who wish it an opportunity to opt out from the data collection. If you want to call that a rant, so be it.

But I will reiterate that such data collection has been abused over and over by smartphone makers, cellular carriers and app developers. That's a fact!

I would like to be in control of my privacy with easy-to-use tools and clear choices. Not have to reverse engineer a ton of code, install packet sniffers, break SSL encryption and more.
Click to expand...
Those BSI guys already did that, and published the results.
Member said:
This is exactly what Microsoft purport to do:

"We will put you in control of your privacy with easy-to-use tools and clear choices."

https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/

How about they live up to their own claims?
Click to expand...
"Privacy" doesn't mean they can't collect any information at all from your Windows install. If you have specific information about Microsoft violating the claims shown in your link, you should publicize the details as best you can.

For example, if you don't think Windows 10 is GDPR-compliant, please detail Microsoft's violations to the EU. The EU has shown no reluctance at all to punish Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Microsoft can't be GDPR non-compliant, because their EULA is written such that you have to give your consent for them to use your data before you can actually install Windows. That's how all these types of companies, google etc, circumnavigate the law. If the law actually really cared about your privacy they would force these companies to give you a choice prior to installation, clearly they don't.
Click to expand...
Which is why anything written in the EULA is void and not applicable nor legally enforceable in the EU. There is already legal precedent on this as well. If it is not on paper, and you are not forced to read it and sign before breaking the wrapper from the box (ie cannot return the software) it is not legally valid. Also, anything you can click agree for without reading, not legally enforceable.
Click to expand...
Firstly, if you believe that then you'll have to produce evidence of this precedent. Secondly, what you've stated around physical paper is clearly not true. Courts prosecute people all the time based on electronic data and transactions. Do you really actually think huge corporations produce legally invalid EULA's to millions of consumers across the world? Why do you think they have distinctly differently worded EULA's for different legal jurisdictions? These companies have their own large legal teams just to cover this aspect of selling goods and services.
Click to expand...
1) if you buy a physical product (eg boxed version of Windows) in a store, they need to be presented to you before opening the box as you generally cannot return software if the box is opened. That means either a separate physical copy you can read before opening, or note with a link to a pdf document you can print or read before doing so.

2) For an electronic license, it is NOT sufficient to show the EULA on screen with a checkbox. You have to provide a downloadable document like a pdf which you can save to your computer. You can either provide a link or the document itself but you have to provide the possibility to save and download it. It is not sufficient to allow the user to copy/paste it themselves to a document.

If you do not do this and all you have is a screen you can scroll through and click agree than everything in there is null and void under European law.

3) if you put things in the EULA that are illegal or unreasonable, the consumer can declare those things null and void. Since burden of proof would be with the consumer (if challenged) and it would be very hard to do for a ordinary person, the EU maintains a black list and a grey list. The black list has things that are plain illegal and if you include those, they are null and void. Anything on the grey list changes burden of proof to the vendor, ie if the consumer finds it is illegal and thus void it is up to the vendor to prove in court why it is not.

This is how it works in the EU, and yes that is completely different from how it works in the US. Doesn't just apply to software, also to for instance services offered online that have terms and conditions applied to them. If you spell them out on your website before purchase, not sufficient and invalid. If you say "terms and conditions apply, please download here" (link to pdf), they do.

Mind you, this is consumer protection laws. If or how it is different for companies, I don't know. It can be and most likely is.
 
afterburn said:
absquatulate said:
afterburn said:
absquatulate said:
Austinian said:
XiaoDeer said:
Austinian said:
afterburn said:
Interesting stuff from an academic perspective but it fails to empower anyone to take control of the process as advocated by the other posters.
Click to expand...
Didn't even read the page I linked, eh? Where it says:

"Tip: An extra, German-only, paper is available that includes system-based and network-based options to limit or block the collection or transfer of Telemetry data to Microsoft."
Click to expand...
Yes, I looked at it. Don't understand German but I understood many of the registry, group policy and network references.
afterburn said:
Grab it and use online translation tools to enable you to implement their blocks. Then publish their techniques for all the complainers to use.
Click to expand...
Herculean effort for a low return. Not worth it. Easier to air gap my Win 10 machine or run it in a VM with no network adapter.
afterburn said:
If I was half as upset about telemetry as some posters here claim to be, that's what I'd do. But it's all talk, no action, till I see someone actually do this.
Click to expand...
Once again, it's a simple and straightforward request: give those who wish it an opportunity to opt out from the data collection. If you want to call that a rant, so be it.

But I will reiterate that such data collection has been abused over and over by smartphone makers, cellular carriers and app developers. That's a fact!

I would like to be in control of my privacy with easy-to-use tools and clear choices. Not have to reverse engineer a ton of code, install packet sniffers, break SSL encryption and more.
Click to expand...
Those BSI guys already did that, and published the results.
afterburn said:
This is exactly what Microsoft purport to do:

"We will put you in control of your privacy with easy-to-use tools and clear choices."

https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/

How about they live up to their own claims?
Click to expand...
"Privacy" doesn't mean they can't collect any information at all from your Windows install. If you have specific information about Microsoft violating the claims shown in your link, you should publicize the details as best you can.

For example, if you don't think Windows 10 is GDPR-compliant, please detail Microsoft's violations to the EU. The EU has shown no reluctance at all to punish Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Microsoft can't be GDPR non-compliant, because their EULA is written such that you have to give your consent for them to use your data before you can actually install Windows. That's how all these types of companies, google etc, circumnavigate the law. If the law actually really cared about your privacy they would force these companies to give you a choice prior to installation, clearly they don't.
Click to expand...
Which is why anything written in the EULA is void and not applicable nor legally enforceable in the EU. There is already legal precedent on this as well. If it is not on paper, and you are not forced to read it and sign before breaking the wrapper from the box (ie cannot return the software) it is not legally valid. Also, anything you can click agree for without reading, not legally enforceable.
Click to expand...
Firstly, if you believe that then you'll have to produce evidence of this precedent. Secondly, what you've stated around physical paper is clearly not true. Courts prosecute people all the time based on electronic data and transactions. Do you really actually think huge corporations produce legally invalid EULA's to millions of consumers across the world? Why do you think they have distinctly differently worded EULA's for different legal jurisdictions? These companies have their own large legal teams just to cover this aspect of selling goods and services.
Click to expand...
1) if you buy a physical product (eg boxed version of Windows) in a store, they need to be presented to you before opening the box as you generally cannot return software if the box is opened. That means either a separate physical copy you can read before opening, or note with a link to a pdf document you can print or read before doing so.

2) For an electronic license, it is NOT sufficient to show the EULA on screen with a checkbox. You have to provide a downloadable document like a pdf which you can save to your computer. You can either provide a link or the document itself but you have to provide the possibility to save and download it. It is not sufficient to allow the user to copy/paste it themselves to a document.

If you do not do this and all you have is a screen you can scroll through and click agree than everything in there is null and void under European law.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure Microsoft have that covered with a hyperlink in the onscreen EULA.
afterburn said:
3) if you put things in the EULA that are illegal or unreasonable, the consumer can declare those things null and void. Since burden of proof would be with the consumer (if challenged) and it would be very hard to do for a ordinary person, the EU maintains a black list and a grey list. The black list has things that are plain illegal and if you include those, they are null and void. Anything on the grey list changes burden of proof to the vendor, ie if the consumer finds it is illegal and thus void it is up to the vendor to prove in court why it is not.

This is how it works in the EU, and yes that is completely different from how it works in the US. Doesn't just apply to software, also to for instance services offered online that have terms and conditions applied to them. If you spell them out on your website before purchase, not sufficient and invalid. If you say "terms and conditions apply, please download here" (link to pdf), they do.

Mind you, this is consumer protection laws. If or how it is different for companies, I don't know. It can be and most likely is.
Click to expand...
In principle this all sounds great, until you check how much Microsoft spends on lobbying in the EU, and how MS and other companies try to hide behind NGO's in order to disguise how much of the pie they have their fingers in.

http://techrights.org/2009/06/05/microsoft-lobby-in-europe/

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/01/microsoft_tops_tech_eu_lobbying_spend/

https://lobbyfacts.eu/representative/60239386204445e2b0fb38cada46b204/microsoft-corporation

But don't worry, we all know how much integrity they have in Brussels......
 
absquatulate said:
But don't worry, we all know how much integrity they have in Brussels......
Click to expand...

Loading…

www.cnbc.com

Nothing could satisfy you except corporate destruction, but the EU has done a better job than most governments of consumer protection.
 
afterburn said:
absquatulate said:
mclewis said:
SantaFeBill said:
If you don't want to read it, please don't. But as I've been researching what I will need to deal with as I'm forced to move to Win10 as Win7 support is ended, I'm appalled.

Just one example (out of too many):

https://windows.gadgethacks.com/how-to/everything-you-need-disable-windows-10-0163552/ (And how many of these fixes still work, or will work after the next update?)
Click to expand...
Stop worrying. That article is a bit scaremongery.

Some of those things disabled in that article are actually useful. Why would you want to disable sharing of Windows updates across your own network? It saves time and bandwidth as you don't have to keep downloading them all for each computer on your network. If you have only one computer on your home network then it won't do anything if it is turned on.

None of those options are hard to find. They are all easily accessible if you want to turn them off/on. They are all fully described so you can make an informed choice on how you want them set. Once you have toggle the settings to how you want them you can forget about them. This is the same with any OS. Maybe you have a quick check after an update to make sure they are still set the way you want them but that happens twice a year for Windows.
Click to expand...
Part of the problem is that Windows keeps changing your settings, which isn't like any other OS.
Click to expand...
*cough*MacOS*cough*
Click to expand...
Credible references? If not, take your medecine.
 
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
 
calson said:
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
Click to expand...
Why don't you simply switch to Mac so you won't feel the compulsion to keep coming to this forum regularly to complain about MS and Windows?

Or... considering your inordinate problems with Windows, hire someone to take care of those computers who knows more about them than you? Maybe the Geek Squad?
 
calson said:
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
Click to expand...
 
Robert Zanatta said:
calson said:
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
Click to expand...
Actually, it dates back to 1989.

I did not know that Apple never puts out more than one update per year. Does that mean that if there's a security issue, or bug, a Mac user could have to wait for up to 12 months for a fix?
Click to expand...
Updates are regular, I think he's referring to major OS updates. The beauty of OSX is that it's easy to manage because the exact hardware is known, unfortunately that comes with a hefty price for the hardware.
 
Robert Zanatta said:
calson said:
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
Click to expand...
Actually, it dates back to 1989.

I did not know that Apple never puts out more than one update per year. Does that mean that if there's a security issue, or bug, a Mac user could have to wait for up to 12 months for a fix?
Click to expand...
Actually it doesn't. You are both factually incorrect, which doesn't help your case to be taken seriously. XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 are all based on win2k workstation, released in 1999, which in turn was based on winnt. There is nothing win95 or dos related to these operating systems other than they were made by the same company. Completely different architecture and design.

As far as macos, it's based on the barely usable thing they released in 2001, which isn't a whole lot different, age wise. Osx didn't become really usable until Tiger (10.4) in 2005
 
afterburn said:
Robert Zanatta said:
calson said:
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
Click to expand...
Actually, it dates back to 1989.

I did not know that Apple never puts out more than one update per year. Does that mean that if there's a security issue, or bug, a Mac user could have to wait for up to 12 months for a fix?
Click to expand...
Actually it doesn't. You are both factually incorrect, which doesn't help your case to be taken seriously. XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 are all based on win2k workstation, released in 1999, which in turn was based on winnt. There is nothing win95 or dos related to these operating systems other than they were made by the same company. Completely different architecture and design.

As far as macos, it's based on the barely usable thing they released in 2001, which isn't a whole lot different, age wise. Osx didn't become really usable until Tiger (10.4) in 2005
Click to expand...
And "macOS is based on technologies developed between 1985 and 1997 at NeXT, a company that Apple co-founder Steve Jobs created after leaving the company" according to Wikipedia. However, I don't know if "based on technologies" means "uses code".
 
Simon Garrett said:
afterburn said:
Robert Zanatta said:
calson said:
With our computers running Mac OS X we do an annual OS update and that is it. In the past 11 years we spend 99% of our time and money with the Windows computers keeping them running. Under the covers the Microsoft code architecture dates back to 1995. It is as bad an operating system as anyone has devised and only succeeded thanks to IBM's personal computer department head giving the OS monopoly to the 18 year old son of a personal friend of the chairman of IBM.
Click to expand...
Actually, it dates back to 1989.

I did not know that Apple never puts out more than one update per year. Does that mean that if there's a security issue, or bug, a Mac user could have to wait for up to 12 months for a fix?
Click to expand...
Actually it doesn't. You are both factually incorrect, which doesn't help your case to be taken seriously. XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and 10 are all based on win2k workstation, released in 1999, which in turn was based on winnt. There is nothing win95 or dos related to these operating systems other than they were made by the same company. Completely different architecture and design.

As far as macos, it's based on the barely usable thing they released in 2001, which isn't a whole lot different, age wise. Osx didn't become really usable until Tiger (10.4) in 2005
Click to expand...
And "macOS is based on technologies developed between 1985 and 1997 at NeXT, a company that Apple co-founder Steve Jobs created after leaving the company" according to Wikipedia. However, I don't know if "based on technologies" means "uses code".
Click to expand...
They could and probably have, as NeXTSTEP by that time was mature on both PowerPC and X86 platforms, as well as PA-RISC and SPARC as by 1993 NeXT had basically abandoned hardware and focused solely on software.
 
I have used Win 10 at different times since it's introduction hoping that it would possibly get better without all the ridiculous amounts of garbage that they make it so difficult to get rid of but to no avail.

It has become worse and worse and worse , it's an absolutely God awful operating system , they have completely removed users ability to really make it there own .

Compared to Win 7 which allows a tremendous amount of user control it's the exact opposite .

When i found out that no matter what you do it's impossible to turn off the spying completely it made it that much worse.

A security forum detailed all the ways microsoft uses to spy on you and none of the stand alone programs to prevent spying will completely stop it , people would be floored if they really knew how intently the user is being watched it's truly sickening.

It's not just MS though :

" Dotcom also took aim at Microsoft, Apple and Alphabet, Google’s parent company, saying they are “the worst of all deep State collaborators” because they “contain the most backdoors, they supply the most data and technology to the Deep State making spying on all of us easier.”

" Kim Dotcom has slammed ‘deep state’ Facebook and Twitter for meddling in US elections, warning they do ‘100 times’ more damage to democracy than all foreign meddlers combined"
 
Relatively speaking, considering the progress of technology, it is the worst OS ever.

I have experience only with W10 Home (my wife's laptop) and W10 Enterprise (at work). Really I should have found a new job that doesn't require it. W10 Pro might be better for some of you out there, hard for me to say.

W10 Enterprise loses its Ethernet connection about once a week, for no reason that I can determine, and requires reboot to reconnect.

W10 Home has > 100 connections to our so-called smart TV, but can't connect to our WiFi printer because it's always finding a new connection (and losing the old one) every time the printer powers on.

Personally I find it more than incredible that in 2019, after networking has become a known commodity, that Microsoft can't deal with network connections in a supposedly new OS.

Of course Windows ME was worse, but that was decades ago.

I'm not very political so this has nothing to do with telemetry, OS as a service, etc. It's just a terrible OS for daily use.
 
Last edited:
CAcreeks said:
Relatively speaking, considering the progress of technology, it is the worst OS ever.

I have experience only with W10 Home (my wife's laptop) and W10 Enterprise (at work). Really I should have found a new job that doesn't require it. W10 Pro might be better for some of you out there, hard for me to say.

W10 Enterprise loses its Ethernet connection about once a week, for no reason that I can determine, and requires reboot to reconnect.

W10 Home has > 100 connections to our so-called smart TV, but can't connect to our WiFi printer because it's always finding a new connection (and losing the old one) every time the printer powers on.
Click to expand...
I find that, and it's also true of W7 and predecessors.

If printers have DHCP-assigned addresses, then if the printer restarts and gets a new IP address, Windows computers may stubbornly continue to use the previous IP address. Rebooting Windows makes it search anew for the IP address, but this is hardly a solution.

The best work-around is to assign a fixed IP address to printers - either in the printer itself, or in the router (most routers allow fixed IP addresses for specific MAC addresses).
CAcreeks said:
Personally I find it more than incredible that in 2019, after networking has become a known commodity, that Microsoft can't deal with network connections in a supposedly new OS.

Of course Windows ME was worse, but that was decades ago.

I'm not very political so this has nothing to do with telemetry, OS as a service, etc. It's just a terrible OS for daily use.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Zormpas
A57 Firmware update thrash...
Replies
2
Views
3K
Zormpas
Zormpas
G
Getting into GFX at last - a GFX 100 (original) - tips?
2
Replies
29
Views
29K
GeoffHarris
G
Z
A WIDE-RANGING REVIEW OF TOPAZ LABS - WARNING LONG POST
2
Replies
28
Views
63K
Ernie Misner
Ernie Misner
photofan1986
Still waiting, but patience wearing thin...(warning, kind of a rant)
6 7 8
Replies
149
Views
30K
GutiWong
G
Glen Barrington
Why I decided on Topaz Photo AI rather than DXO Pure Raw
2 3
Replies
40
Views
188K
tbcass
tbcass

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top