RIP Olympus PEN-F. best small M43 camera with articulating LCD

cba_melbourne · Mar 3, 2019

Tommi K1 said:
cba_melbourne said:

iamphil said:

cba_melbourne said:

iamphil said:

SirPalomid said:

Loga said:

I always saw the digital Pen-F as an overdesigned, misconcepted camera.

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Kinda the same for me, for "street camera" it lacks (imho) a few things:

1- Tilting screen

2. Weather sealing

3. Better manual AF helpers (they can learn from Fuji to implement digital DOF / distance scale and putting separate AF/MF lever on camera).

And not must for a street camera, but for all-rounder - PDAF and good C-AF.

If it only had first 3 points, even without PDAF - I would definately grab it as a travel / street camera (99% of my shots) because of the small form factor, unique JPEG engine / profiles. E-M1.2 is alittle bit too bulky to be "every time with me" camera, but Pen-F could be.

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I'm still shocked there's no automatic hyperfocal program implemented. Is it that hard?

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Or would you like to enter a depth of focus range, and have the camera set the aperture and focus point to achieve this for you?

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Yes. If I'm in Av mode, I'd like to be able to push a button and have it set. It should be possible but the last time I asked if it was an available feature I was told no.

It's one thing on a manual lens with markings where you can guess at it but on a focus by wire lens with no markings this should be a feature.

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It would require that focus motors have an absolute position encoder (or at least an index for two calibrated positions). Ordinary fly by wire focus lenses simply do not have that. Professional broadcast cameras do.

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M4/3 lenses has the range information. Not exact by centimeters but enough.

Interesting. It is possible that they have an approximate range information. I simply do not know.

What I have observed, is that when I mount a lens and turn on the camera, the lens focus is at the position, where the lens was left when used last time. It does not first go to infinity to find an index mark.

If after mounting it did first go to infinity, it could from there on count the number of steps to know its focus position. Provided the focus drive motor is either a stepper motor, or its drive mechanism is fitted with at least an incremental focus encoder. That would of course only work until power is turned off, then the process would have to start afresh.

Do you know if there is any form of focus position or distance information hidden in the exif data? If so, then that would support your claim.

If no such information exists in exif data, that does not automatically invalidate your claim. The information may till exist, but so far not be used or only used internally.

Member said:
The lenses needs to know what is its focus range, and they know each step/rotation they have and where they are. They know where to park focus, where it was left and when they are reaching the end of their range and they know how much to move for reaching given focus distance.

It is all there.

JaKing · Mar 3, 2019

Chris, there is distance info in the EXIF data. PIE can read it in both distance and steps.

IMHO, PIE is the most complete GUI to exiftool.

Tom Caldwell · Mar 3, 2019

Felice62 said:
Tom Caldwell said:

tenthwashfree said:

The most interesting camera in their line up, in my personal opinion.

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Well I might have bought one with a tilt screen, but I bought GX7, GX85 and GX9 instead.

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With all due respect apart from being all ragefinder styled cameras there's nothing else in common.

PEN-F is an absolute. That has nothing to do with the features of the camera itself and how it performs. For this reason one cannot compare it to anything else.

Well you have a point, but there is such a thing as a tipping point (some call it deal-breaker) where the deal is tipped out of contention by some unliveable-with feature - no matter how great the rest of the camera might be.

In my case - I cannot really ever choose to own a RF-style (especially) camera with a FAS. Just my choice. I feel no regrets in owning successive Panasonic RF camera bodies with tilt lcd and I did like the E-M1 with tilt screen but passed on the E-M1ii because of its FAS.

I did buy a G9 despite my better judgement but its FAS is the only thing I truly dislike about it.

I am sure that others quite like FAS, and by all means - go for it - but a FAS is not my FAShion and it is my money that gets stumped up to buy these things.

Goodness knows how many sales Olympus has lost by concentrating on FAS for almost all of its more recent cameras.

FAS was a bad move on the PEN. With tilt lcd I would surely have bought one - but that would only have been one more sale? I am sure that Olympus is not discontinuing the PEN because of my lost sale.

cba_melbourne · Mar 3, 2019

JaKing said:
Chris, there is distance info in the EXIF data. PIE can read it in both distance and steps.

IMHO, PIE is the most complete GUI to exiftool.

Thanks.

In this case, there is no reason why a hyperfocal routine could not be implemented.

Now I go looking for this PIE... I want it

JaKing · Mar 3, 2019

cba_melbourne said:
JaKing said:

Chris, there is distance info in the EXIF data. PIE can read it in both distance and steps.

IMHO, PIE is the most complete GUI to exiftool.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

In this case, there is no reason why a hyperfocal routine could not be implemented.

Now I go looking for this PIE... I want it

Full name is Picture Information Extractor

JakeJY · Mar 3, 2019

Tom Caldwell said:
I am sure that others quite like FAS, and by all means - go for it - but a FAS is not my FAShion and it is my money that gets stumped up to buy these things.

Goodness knows how many sales Olympus has lost by concentrating on FAS for almost all of its more recent cameras.

FAS was a bad move on the PEN. With tilt lcd I would surely have bought one - but that would only have been one more sale? I am sure that Olympus is not discontinuing the PEN because of my lost sale.

The GX8 has the same "problem". Interesting that both high end rangefinders saw their demise and shared this same characteristic. Anecdotal evidence should be taken with a grain of salt, but my impression is that street photographers (probably the biggest market for these type of cameras) seem to prefer tilt screens for various reasons (whether it is because of smaller footprint when screen is angled, or because it might be slightly faster to get screen to tilt from a flat position).

Too bad they didn't come with a hybrid screen so the screen didn't have to play a factor. The Fuji version is interesting, but I think the ones in the Sony SLT cameras really addresses both even more. The screen can be folded in like a FAS and also support selfies.

Belgarchi · Mar 3, 2019

Lightcycle said:
Lightcycle said:

But...what if they make something better instead?

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Frankly, I can no longer hear this useless whining because of the sudden cessation of production. This is a normal process in the industry and therefore absolutely nothing new. I am firmly convinced that sooner or later there will be a worthy successor!

Like for the Panasonic GM-5?

Not sure at all.

cba_melbourne · Mar 3, 2019

JaKing said:
cba_melbourne said:

JaKing said:

Chris, there is distance info in the EXIF data. PIE can read it in both distance and steps.

IMHO, PIE is the most complete GUI to exiftool.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

In this case, there is no reason why a hyperfocal routine could not be implemented.

Now I go looking for this PIE... I want it

Click to expand...

Full name is Picture Information Extractor

Got it, great software and free. Thanks for recommending it.

The distance information is there for pictures taken with my Pen-F. But not for pictures taken with my GM1 or GM5. And as expected, it is also not there for fully manual lenses.

So, it looks like the availability of this information is both camera AND lens dependent.

I need to do more experimenting...

Tommi K1 · Mar 3, 2019

cba_melbourne said:
The distance information is there for pictures taken with my Pen-F. But not for pictures taken with my GM1 or GM5. And as expected, it is also not there for fully manual lenses.

Didn't the GM1 have a range scale? I have faint recollection of that on its screen when manually focusing 12-32mm...

Tommi K1 · Mar 3, 2019

gary0319 said:
Tommi K1 said:

gary0319 said:

Of course if you are a Raw only shooter, none of these would have any benefit to you.

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They offer huge benefit for raw shooters as well, as it is not just about JPEG bit about guidance for previsualization.

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Yes, I should have mentioned that. I most always shoot Raw + JPEG and sometimes use, as an example, the Mono or Color profiled JPEG as a reference image for processing the Raw file. Since it was is the JPEG rendition that I was looking at through the EVF at the time of capture, it serves as a reminder of what interested me to take the image in the first place.

Exactly why the art knob is totally useful for every raw shooter. Even if they reject JPEG, they get a previsualization that they otherwise would need to imagine, and considering how quickly one dial different filters with PEN-F, it is faster than raw shooters can think.

That is same thing with ETTR methods that you get bunch of overexposed photographs that doesn't resemble anything until you go through each one testing that what did you really capture.....

cba_melbourne · Mar 3, 2019

Tommi K1 said:
cba_melbourne said:

The distance information is there for pictures taken with my Pen-F. But not for pictures taken with my GM1 or GM5. And as expected, it is also not there for fully manual lenses.

Click to expand...

Didn't the GM1 have a range scale? I have faint recollection of that on its screen when manually focusing 12-32mm...

Because the 12-32 lens has no focus ring, the only way to manually focus it is to use an on-screen slide bar. It has only arrows for fast/slow, near/far. There is no graduated scale. I very rarely use MF with this lens, it feels more like a phone than a camera without a true focus ring...

For other lenses with focus ring, there is no on-screen information for distance. If used with a lens with focus clutch (like Olympus 12/2 and 17/1.8), there is only the distance information on the lens ring itself. The GM1 seems not to be aware of the distance setting. I only have GM1 and GM5 from Panasonic. Maybe newer (or larger) Panasonic cameras do have a distance information?

Panasonic lenses used on the PenF do show the distance information in PIE, so it must be a GM1 camera limitation.

Felice62 · Mar 3, 2019

Tom Caldwell said:
Felice62 said:

Tom Caldwell said:

tenthwashfree said:

The most interesting camera in their line up, in my personal opinion.

Click to expand...

Well I might have bought one with a tilt screen, but I bought GX7, GX85 and GX9 instead.

Click to expand...

With all due respect apart from being all ragefinder styled cameras there's nothing else in common.

PEN-F is an absolute. That has nothing to do with the features of the camera itself and how it performs. For this reason one cannot compare it to anything else.

Click to expand...

Well you have a point, but there is such a thing as a tipping point (some call it deal-breaker) where the deal is tipped out of contention by some unliveable-with feature - no matter how great the rest of the camera might be.

In my case - I cannot really ever choose to own a RF-style (especially) camera with a FAS. Just my choice. I feel no regrets in owning successive Panasonic RF camera bodies with tilt lcd and I did like the E-M1 with tilt screen but passed on the E-M1ii because of its FAS.

I did buy a G9 despite my better judgement but its FAS is the only thing I truly dislike about it.

I am sure that others quite like FAS, and by all means - go for it - but a FAS is not my FAShion and it is my money that gets stumped up to buy these things.

Goodness knows how many sales Olympus has lost by concentrating on FAS for almost all of its more recent cameras.

You have a point. A dislike FAS as well but was completely captured by the beauty of PEN-F. GOd knows how I would have liked it not to have a FAS..

But I have learnt to live with it. I keep it closed at all times. then the back of my PEN-F looks exactly the way I want

Tom Caldwell said:
FAS was a bad move on the PEN. With tilt lcd I would surely have bought one - but that would only have been one more sale? I am sure that Olympus is not discontinuing the PEN because of my lost sale.

deednets · Mar 3, 2019

gary0319 said:
izzylars said:

This is sad and a pity to me, I've been looking at the Pen F 2 for a while and wishing to buy it, but wanted to wait for it to be updated and improved upon. :-( Will have to find a different camera that has the same charm to fill it's spot since I rather buy something newer than 2017 model.

Click to expand...

You guys really slay me, sometimes.

Some won't buy a camera for fear that it will be replaced in the near future by some better version, and then when the better version comes along, it's to expensive so we have to wait for the price to go down and the whole damn thing starts all over again.

The Pen F has been in my hands for the last two years and it will remain so for the foreseeable future. It really doesn't need any upgrades for my usage so it remains a gem as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad I bought it when I did, and if it were to be stolen or damaged, I'd buy it all over again, regardless of it's age.

+1

Although I sold it it remains that one camera I regretted selling. (had my reasons but sometimes wonder...)

Deed

Jon555 · Mar 4, 2019

I was speaking to two people from Olympus U.K. at an event last week and they both said there won't be a Pen-F mk 2 as the current one didn't sell well enough for that, sorry. (I'd have been interested if there had been.)

gary0319 · Mar 4, 2019

Dr_Jon said:
I was speaking to two people from Olympus U.K. at an event last week and they both said there won't be a Pen-F mk 2 as the current one didn't sell well enough for that, sorry. (I'd have been interested if there had been.)

Same information from my local Olympus Outlet here in the US.

I would encourage you to seek out one of the remaining Pen F and make it your own.....one of the few “keeper” camera buys I have made. It’s no wonder they are hard to find on the used market.

Raist3d · Mar 4, 2019

The years old well before Pentax Q (all Pentax Qa) have a dual that you can customize to custom filter but also other functions

kinda funny the Q had this front dial thing but when people don’t know any better here, they may think Olympus was first ;-) not that I find it as an idea too extreme since film cameras already did this- but Some people here using their logic, one would have to conclude Olympus copied Pentax again (ibis), and did it later

(not that I see it as copying per se, but some here think it’s a first)

This is why the little Pentax Q was impossibly amazing all the features of a full featured DSLR at that size with lenses that turned out to be pretty good (not talking about the cheaper “toy” lenses which are also fun)

Raist3d · Mar 4, 2019

vs “gear” and/or photographer insecurity not necessarily the same thing at all

I think there’s something to be said for simplicity and on that end having the dial at the front dononoy that one thing could be attractive- if it wasn’t for how Olympus goes all out already with too many options kinda surprising they don’t enable that one- just put the color profiles as defaults

Mahmoud Mousef · Mar 4, 2019

I have never touched or used or seen the product in-the-flesh. With that out of the way, I dislike the retro design and the high price.

I remember when Olympus and Panasonic designs didn't have a hint of looking-back: they didn't even attempt any retro designs. They had all eyes on the future and they had better ergonomics with less harsh edges with that philosophy.

Raist3d · Mar 4, 2019

Marty4650 said:
The Dpreview camera database is full of innovative camera designs that were tried but failed to sell well enough to merit a second model.

Here are just some of the examples of innovative camera models that never got a second version, and will probably never get one:

Canon 1D C

Canon N

Fujifilm X-M1

Fujifilm XS1

Kodak Pixpro S-1

Nikon AW1

Nikon Df

Panasonic GX8

Panasonic LF1

Panasonic XS1

Pentax K-01

Samsung NX-Mini

Sigma SD1

YI M1

And some entire camera series and camera systems have disappeared due to lack of sufficient sales, even though their makers are still making cameras:

Fujifilm Finepix Pro DSLRs

Nikon 1 series

Olympus Four Thirds DSLRs

Panasonic GM series

Olympus Pen Mini series

Pentax Q system

Hi Marty - just one exception The Q is not dead just yet Ricoh officially said they are still considering moving ahead with the line Keep in mind there were several Q models (Q, Q10, Q7, Q-S) so the Q had a bit of an arc rather then fail from the get go- and did capture for Ricoh for a time some market share in Japan/ Asia

So I would say the Q is a bit like the schrödinger cat right now- when you open the box , 50% chance it’s not killed as a line or 50% chance it’s still dead ;-)

if Ricoh wants to continue it, they need to release the telephoto macro lens which was almost done and tested by some Ricoh insiders

Marty4650 said:
Ricoh GXR modular system

Sony SLT series

And there are also examples of companies that stopped making digital cameras altogether, for any of a variety of reasons:

Agfa

Casio

Contax

Epson

HP

Konica Minolta

Kyocera

Lytro

Samsung

Sanyo

Toshiba

This situation isn't unique for cameras. It happens to all consumer products. A manufacturer tries something new, and if it becomes popular it is followed by follow up models.

If it doesn't, then it dies.

One thing for certain, even if there is no future Pen-F Mark II model, the concept of "retro styled digital camera" is alive and well. The next version may not come from Olympus, but it will come from someone.

gary0319 · Mar 4, 2019

Mahmoud Mousef said:
I have never touched or used or seen the product in-the-flesh. With that out of the way, I dislike the retro design and the high price.

I remember when Olympus and Panasonic designs didn't have a hint of looking-back: they didn't even attempt any retro designs. They had all eyes on the future and they had better ergonomics with less harsh edges with that philosophy.

I think that Olympus bringing forward their heritage design philosophy is one of the endearing attributes of the brand .... and, it is not simply the Pen F that personifies this.

Consider the similarities between the original E-M1 from the film era and the E-M10 II (be sure to check out the knurling on the dials). Oh, and how about that on/off switch? And, the shape of the top deck?

RIP Olympus PEN-F. best small M43 camera with articulating LCD

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