Don't they like the USA anymore?

What is your idea of politics?

Sell or give away weapons to 3rd world countrys, then invade and occupie them for 5 years...

You don't even think about what others write.

wait...you are not incognito Bush, are you?

Sad that you lack any sensibility. I guess you are proud to be though old guy!
Come on...
what is really sad is your state of mind.
All this states are just some 100 years behind sozial developement
in the EU or the US.
What they don't need is war, they need to develope the country from
a 3rd world state to a 1st world country. When that has happened
the political systems will change slowly to democratic systems.
Why...because people get educated.

The UN are a good tool to control and develope countrys if no
countrys work against it only in there own interests.

Terror only came to the US couse they interfered with the local
interests of these countrys.
One way to stop this developement is not to interfere with local
political interests by supporting one group to fight the
other...just drop interest on these countrys.
It wouldn't hurt the US to try some more low profile international
politics.

Sometimes you have to lose something or give away interests to gain
something.

Only 7-12 year old Kids that grew up in a war and know what it
fells like to see people dying every day should be allowed to get
politicians and negotiate for peace.
Because the European politicians who grew up witnessing WWI did
such a great job? SOunds to me like you really understand 7-12
year old kid logic.
--
******************************************

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/40625?PHPSESSID=83d3a4daf9e5d5291cad7f53a28e039a
 
Actually, after reading my last post it struck me.. Having to constantly weigh the dollar cost of everything against the benifit of it isn't really freedom at all, is it? Seems more like a ball and chain.
 
Please tell me when we last occupied a country for 5 years, or 2 for that matter? If you would like your views to be taken seriously a history lesson would help. Repeating a bunch of anti-american propaganda is not a substitiute for facts.
You don't even think about what others write.

wait...you are not incognito Bush, are you?

Sad that you lack any sensibility. I guess you are proud to be
though old guy!
Come on...
what is really sad is your state of mind.
All this states are just some 100 years behind sozial developement
in the EU or the US.
What they don't need is war, they need to develope the country from
a 3rd world state to a 1st world country. When that has happened
the political systems will change slowly to democratic systems.
Why...because people get educated.

The UN are a good tool to control and develope countrys if no
countrys work against it only in there own interests.

Terror only came to the US couse they interfered with the local
interests of these countrys.
One way to stop this developement is not to interfere with local
political interests by supporting one group to fight the
other...just drop interest on these countrys.
It wouldn't hurt the US to try some more low profile international
politics.

Sometimes you have to lose something or give away interests to gain
something.

Only 7-12 year old Kids that grew up in a war and know what it
fells like to see people dying every day should be allowed to get
politicians and negotiate for peace.
Because the European politicians who grew up witnessing WWI did
such a great job? SOunds to me like you really understand 7-12
year old kid logic.
--
******************************************

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/40625?PHPSESSID=83d3a4daf9e5d5291cad7f53a28e039a
 
Was'nt it Randy Newman who sung:

Let's drop the big one now?

That's why we love the USA.
They've got the big one.

Bert
 
Saying the perfect way to deal with Iraq was to ignore the UN and invade the country is stupid.
The US has still troops in Germany...

Besides I didn't say the US ever did it, I jsut asked if you think this would be the correct way to deal with every dictatorship (even there where the US has no interests?)

What did you read as anti-american propaganda?
I thought you where proud of your weapon industrys history?
Please educate yourself and learn to think befor posting.
You don't even think about what others write.

wait...you are not incognito Bush, are you?

Sad that you lack any sensibility. I guess you are proud to be
though old guy!
Come on...
what is really sad is your state of mind.
All this states are just some 100 years behind sozial developement
in the EU or the US.
What they don't need is war, they need to develope the country from
a 3rd world state to a 1st world country. When that has happened
the political systems will change slowly to democratic systems.
Why...because people get educated.

The UN are a good tool to control and develope countrys if no
countrys work against it only in there own interests.

Terror only came to the US couse they interfered with the local
interests of these countrys.
One way to stop this developement is not to interfere with local
political interests by supporting one group to fight the
other...just drop interest on these countrys.
It wouldn't hurt the US to try some more low profile international
politics.

Sometimes you have to lose something or give away interests to gain
something.

Only 7-12 year old Kids that grew up in a war and know what it
fells like to see people dying every day should be allowed to get
politicians and negotiate for peace.
Because the European politicians who grew up witnessing WWI did
such a great job? SOunds to me like you really understand 7-12
year old kid logic.
--
******************************************

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/40625?PHPSESSID=83d3a4daf9e5d5291cad7f53a28e039a
--
******************************************

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/40625?PHPSESSID=83d3a4daf9e5d5291cad7f53a28e039a
 
And while waiting for these so called "sensible politicians"
thousands more Iraqi's would be slaughtered by a butchering
dictator.
In the mainstream media you only hear reports of death when a U.S. or British soldier dies. There are literally thousands of Iraqi's dying every day as a result of the occupation of their country. They are being killed both by their occupiers and violence among themselves as a result of there being absolutely no order in their country.

Adam
 
Yup, but can ya put a price on your family? How much? Besides its a
war we didnt start..remember the African embassaies? The USS Cole,
the first Trade center attack? The Kobar Towers? The military
barracks in Lebanon?

http://www.pbase.com/wbrosen/photoart
My family in the eyes of this current administration is worth
approximately 1/2 gallon of OIL.

We didn't start this war? Who trained Osama Bin Laden? The CIA
that's who. Who gave Iraq Money and weapons? The U.S. that's who.

I remember the Embassies and the U.S.S. Cole and the first WTC
attack. And I am aware that the anti-terrorism plan that former
pres. Clinton had in place was dismantled by the Bush
administration. Guess what happened after that?
I also want to add that currently, on top of the hazard pay cut Bush generously gave our troops, they don't even rate the value of 2 liters of water per day due to the current rationing.
 
How ironic that you thumb your nose at the participants in this thread yet you are here just the same AND you felt the need to post. How sadly ironic.
This is precisely why I find myself not wanting to come here to
look through forums anymore.

I come here for photography information, not a political debate.
 
Your sentiments are a breath of fresh air. If only you could get a
few tens of millions of your fellow countrymen to wake up and smell
the barbarity that is being perpetrated in the name of democracy,
then perhaps we could all look forward to change after the next
Presidential election. But as it is, with reported 70 percent of
Americans seemingly of the totally errant belief that Sadaam was
involved in 9-11 (a patent nonsense, but not one the Bush cabal has
been shy of maintaining, at least until very recently), then I fear
we're all in for another four years of this big-business-owned
regime that damns the rest of us to its exploitation and blinkered
so-called foreign 'policy'. Woe betide us all.

rm
Thank you, I didn't expect any positive reaction here.
 
Your sentiments are a breath of fresh air. If only you could get a
few tens of millions of your fellow countrymen to wake up and smell
the barbarity that is being perpetrated in the name of democracy,
then perhaps we could all look forward to change after the next
Presidential election. But as it is, with reported 70 percent of
Americans seemingly of the totally errant belief that Sadaam was
involved in 9-11 (a patent nonsense, but not one the Bush cabal has
been shy of maintaining, at least until very recently), then I fear
we're all in for another four years of this big-business-owned
regime that damns the rest of us to its exploitation and blinkered
so-called foreign 'policy'. Woe betide us all.

rm
Saddam's lack of involvement in 9-11 is completely irrelevant. He
was a brutal dictator who slaughtered thousands (perhaps millions)
of innocent people on an ongoing basis. "Civilized" Europe never
has had much of a problem turning a blind eye towards the suffering
and massacre of others. Additionally, Europe has had centuries to
perfect the politics of inaction.
Yeah Bush Sr. also turned a blind eye while Saddam gassed and bombed the Curds directly after 'Gulf War I'. However I didn't exaclty appreciate the 'waffeling' of the world while Bosnia was effectively turned into a crater either.

However, regardless of Saddam's lack of involvment in 9-11 GWB Jr. still has to turn up a WMD bigger than an RPG.
 
Meanwhile sports fans and college kids can insight a riot when
their team wins. A riot that often results in the injury or death
of innocent bystanders as well as destruction of public and private
property. They receive a slap on the wrist by the way. Oh yeah and
then whine about it being unfair.
Because soccer crowds are known for their well mannered behavior!!!
If you live in the U.S. you should take this seriously. Sure soccer
crowds have been rioting forever. But that is no reason to make
light of this situation. I am trying to tell you that our current
government doesn't care if college kids want to get get drunk and
die or burn cars for fun. But if you're going to speak out against
a war that defys U.N. policy, destroys diplomatic relations with
our allies and makes our country look like the German war machine
of 1935, you risk spending 25 years to life in prison. That my
friend sounds worse than Saddam Hussain's regeim to me. Fortunatly
the bill didn't pass... this time. Those responsable for such a
mockery of our constitution won't give up though and it's people
who turn a blind eye to their indiscretion who help them win.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. This is just blatant
mis-statement.
But I'm afraid so many americans these days are too concerned about
how the next digicam from their favorite brand is going to stack up
against the 'competetion' and whether or not the 'better' version
will be sold in the U.S. to care about their civil liberties and
rights. All we want is gas for our H2's and we don't care how we
get it. It's sick and pathetic. Especially when another poster on
this thead expressed their concern for having another 3,000 of us
killed in another terrorist attack and they'd give up even more
rights to stay protected. I've got news for him and the rest of
this forum... 40,000 of us die every year in car accidents but that
doesn't stop any of us from getting up everyday, getting in our gas
and oil guzzeling death traps and fighting everybody else in their
gas and oil guzzeling death traps on the freeway so we can get to
work or the mall faster than they do. BTW other countries including
England said to us after 9/11, "welcome to the rest of the world."

Do you see my point yet? Am I wrong in thinking that the general
attitude of american society has become blase' to the rest of the
world and worse yet our own government's actions in favor of new
toys to occupy us? Please be my guest and tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
AWWWW! You've made my liberal heart bleed.

There is nothing amiss about my statement. Oregon Senator John Minnis did lobby for Bill 742 that would make a protest that obstructed traffic or disruppted any other part of a non participants life an act of terror. Look it up.

http://www.dailyemerald.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/04/03/3e8c4f41e202b

This part though sounds more like a riot than a protest though -

"any person who "knowingly plans, participates in or carries out any violent act that the person knows, or reasonably should know, could result in the death or serious injury of a person and is intended by at least one participant to disrupt or destroy""

Thank you for expressing you opinion about mine though at least we're still entitled to both of them.
 
Socialism has nothing to do with it. All those so-called socialist
parties in Europe and Canada are not preaching or implementing
socialism. They're advocation a welfare state.
yep, and I m a french speaking canadian, hey :-)
You seem to object to the government providing any service.
not me
Taking
this view to extreme, why not open the military and police to free
competition. Just leave the streets to various street gangs who
will compete for protection money.
dont mix things up, a private police force is not the same as a street gang
We all know, that this would
cost the citizens way more than the taxes used to finance the
police the way things are.
we know nothing of the sort
The truth is, that competition does not
always result in better service and lower prices. While
competition does work for some products, it does not work for
others. Two examples:
  • where there are great economies of scale, a natural monopoly is
likely. Think Microsoft, or a power utility. Choosing between a
government monopoly and a private one, I'd take the government
monopoly any day.
wrong answer, a private entity is always accountable, a government can just raise the taxes. That's what we are living right now in Canada.
  • where there is a star system involved. In certain fields,
certain players are perceived as having a much higher value than
other players, meaning that people would be willing to pay far, far
more for their services as opposed to the equivalent services
provided by others.
When the player or person is just "perceived" as being better there is a problem. But often enough it is more then just perception, they are better
Hollywood has that problem. There are plenty
of unemployed actors with just as much talent and good looks as
stars who get multi-million-dollar salaries.
Wrong, if it were so, they would get work since, being new, they would charge a few millions less.

Being a star is not something that happen. There is a lot of work involved. They dont just appear and "bingo", we are not talking about meteorite here but star. a star is a sure value, he/she as talent and is loved by the people, they do not even have to be good looking. The movie they participated in made money and that s from a long line of money making movie. Not just one. Remember Tom Cruse in "Legend"
There is no reason to
pay these salaries, yet they do.
they are worth it since they attract the crowd and make othere people makes money. You know, pension found are not just held in cash in a bank somewhere.
The medical profession has the
same problem. People are willing to pay huge amounts of money to
famous specialists when they get seriously ill, even though those
specialists are only marginally better than other doctors.
The same goes in everything, you pay a lot more for just a litlle better once you pass a certain point of quality.
This is
because sick people don't make their choices rationally.
that's laughable
While the market failure in Hollywood is not a big problem for us,
and does not warrant government intervention,
I would like to be as much a failure as Hollywood
the failure of the
medical community affects us all. That is why your idea won't work
so well. The famous doctors will not work for the insurers, and
people who get very sick will go to those stars and pay all their
money.
that's a choice they make and it's ok as long as there are other doctor available to do the same job.
Rather than dogmatically reject an idea because it is "socialist",
you should consider its merits.
Europeans pay a lot less for
similar medical treatment as Americans.
Your sure about that ?
This does result in less
European doctors who are millionaires.
come to Canada, If I were to take the part of my income tax, sale tax, charges and other strategy that the government use to take money from me I would have a "de luxe" medical insurance policy in the US with no waiting list. But right now, if I get sick and need an operation the waiting list is 1 year and more. And I am not covered for eye glass, teeth work and most medication.

--
Gaetan J.
 
Let me remind you that this isn't necessarily a bad thing for
Canadians. So we have to shop for some health services south of
the border, so what?
ever calculated the part of your income that goes to healthcare ?
The important thing is that we're getting the
best care possible because Canada takes an interest in it's
citizens.
LOLROTF
A person doesn't have to be a member of the elite 10% in
order to get the best possible care.
you are wright, but we have to wait a year in line. And let me tell you about my aunt who died of dehydratation in an HOSPITAL
Greed is an unfortuanate thing, and I will concede that there are
far too many Canadian doctors getting into the field for money
rather then actually being interested in helping people.
I m starting to have conflicting idea about greed. If greed is "trying to get the money of others" then it should be called stealing. If greed is wanting to be rich and be hable to buy a lot of thing then it is good. Why ? Everytime you buy something you get someone to work. Soemone had to work to build my house, my car, my sound system, my camera, my cloths everything that I want or bought was made by someone. And since I want more I work more (or better) to get more money building things that other people wants. But if nobody wants what I make I go broke.
Those are
the ones that head down to the US. That's life I guess, and the
free market system is definitely the place to enjoy that brand of
"success", as it seems to be commonly known though I'm not sure if
being rich and being successful are really the same thing.
2 different things but not irreconciliable
People shouldn't have to be wealthy to get the best possible care.
you are wright, but it's OK to share a room at the hospital.
I'll tell you a true story about the Canadian healthcare system.
My wife just had twin girls. Twins are automatically high risk, so
we automatically got an ultrasound every two weeks which was great
peace of mind. The labor was long and got complicated, eventually
ending in a cesarian section. Throughout the whole pregnancy and
delivery our care was amazing.
congratulation
There was no pressure to leave the
hospital before we were ready.
my sister in law got thrown out the day after her delivery.
There were no questions about
whether we were covered for this or that.. we just got what we
needed so that mom and children would be safe.

My wife is on a message board with other pregnant women, and we
were amazed at the debating that would go on from Amarican moms
about how many ultrasounds were necessesary seeing as they cost
$200+ each in the US, and what how much everything else costs.
Money this and money that. I can't imagine the flurry of red tape
there must be when a last minute C-section becomes necessary.
I believe, but may be wrong, that there is a law in the US stating that you cant deny healtservice for someone who cant pay.
It
made my wife and I appreciate Canada a little more, for sure.
There is no doubt that money is important for living, but there are
some times in a person's life when you just shouldn't have to
factor it into the choices you make.
Your are wright about that but you wont make be believe that the Canadian system is a good as you state. Our healtcare personal are great, but the serices are not there and the waiting list are long and we are not covered for a lot of thing.

Here is an exemple

While my wife was not in danger, it took 6 month before she could have her "biopsy au trocard" (dont know the anglish equivalent) for a breasts cancer diagnosis. While her life was not in danger, the time it took for the test may have prooven the difference between a simple non-disfiguring surgy and a breasts ablation. We were hapy to find out that it was not a growing cancer/tumor or even malignent. They were just calcification, thank god. But how many people are sufering because it takes too long ? Too long for anything ...

--
Gaetan J.
 
To tell you the truth, with the shooting (guns) we just had down the street this morning, I wouldn't mind moving to a quiet villa in rural Italy right now. Would it be too much to ask for a DSL hookup and UPS? Hey, only dreaming...
 
And while waiting for these so called "sensible politicians"
thousands more Iraqi's would be slaughtered by a butchering
dictator.
In the mainstream media you only hear reports of death when a U.S.
or British soldier dies.
yes, oh wait, were did I get the news about irakies death ... dont remember but there was news about them too. Remeber that irakies police group that got killed. How do I know that.
There are literally thousands of Iraqi's
dying every day as a result of the occupation of their country.
there is just no way of knowing, so your last phrase is a totaly free ascertion from you without any basis. May be, maybe not

...

--
Gaetan J.
 
And while waiting for these so called "sensible politicians"
thousands more Iraqi's would be slaughtered by a butchering
dictator.
In the mainstream media you only hear reports of death when a U.S.
or British soldier dies. There are literally thousands of Iraqi's
dying every day as a result of the occupation of their country.
They are being killed both by their occupiers and violence among
themselves as a result of there being absolutely no order in their
country.

Adam
Adam, please provide evidence of your claim that literally thousands of Iraqi's are dying every day as a result of the occupation. Yes, there are casualties, which is always a tragedy, but not in the numbers you are stating.

Take a look at the Al Jazeera website, and you will not find any such claims.
http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/News/ArabWorld/

This is certainly not the mainstream press and is perhaps the most trusted source of news in the Arab world. I see no news stories that support your position.

Until you can do so, your statement seems to be nothing more than hyperbole.
 
sorry i mistyped, that should be thousands a week, but still that's an awfully large amount. This was reported on kpfk 90.7FM los angeles I believe you can hear them on the internet at http://www.kpfk.org They were interviewing different iraqi's who worked in the morgues around the country.

I believe http://www.guadian.co.uk had some sort of statistics on civilian deaths too but I'm not positive on that one.

Adam
And while waiting for these so called "sensible politicians"
thousands more Iraqi's would be slaughtered by a butchering
dictator.
In the mainstream media you only hear reports of death when a U.S.
or British soldier dies. There are literally thousands of Iraqi's
dying every day as a result of the occupation of their country.
They are being killed both by their occupiers and violence among
themselves as a result of there being absolutely no order in their
country.

Adam
Adam, please provide evidence of your claim that literally
thousands of Iraqi's are dying every day as a result of the
occupation. Yes, there are casualties, which is always a tragedy,
but not in the numbers you are stating.

Take a look at the Al Jazeera website, and you will not find any
such claims.
http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/News/ArabWorld/

This is certainly not the mainstream press and is perhaps the most
trusted source of news in the Arab world. I see no news stories
that support your position.

Until you can do so, your statement seems to be nothing more than
hyperbole.
 
Yup, but can ya put a price on your family? How much? Besides its a
war we didnt start..remember the African embassaies? The USS Cole,
the first Trade center attack? The Kobar Towers? The military
barracks in Lebanon?
Bill,

I'm a Brit, and my politics are what you guys call 'liberal'. A few
days ago I had dinner with 20 millionaire Republican Americans, an
experience that was entirely new to me -- but one that made me
'understand' your post above.

Those millionaire elite, graduates of the best schools in America,
were completely unaware of multiple things that we in Britain take
for granted. Not liberal spin, but well-documented FACTS.

Like how Iraq and Al-Quaeda are completely unrelated. (And how
Sadaam's Baathist party's religious position makes it an avowed
enemy of Bin Laden & Co). Like how Iraq had ZERO to do with the
horrors of 9-11. Like how almost ALL of the perpetrators of 9-11
were actually Saudi Arabians (can't say THAT out loud, since the
Saudis, never mind their horrific human rights record, are toeing
the American Oil Industry Line, right?). Like how, after anthrax
appeared in America after 9-11, the finger that automatically
pointed towards Sadaam was in truth due to an established
historical fact that remains almost ignored by your supposed
'liberal' press: that George Bush Snr, when President, over-ruled
America's democratic process and denied both Senate and Congress a
say when he personally allowed biological weapons, including large
quantities of anthrax, to be shipped to Iraq (for the simplistic
reason that Iraq was America's friend, and their enemy Iran was
not).

I sat a few evenings ago with some of America's white power-broking
elite. And I was astonished at their ignorance of the facts.

So maybe it's no surprise that 70 percent of Americans STILL think
that Sadaam had direct involvement in 9-11. Your lack of interest
in seeking the basic truths is shocking, and for that alone, the
rest of the world will pay for decades to come. In the blood of
innocent people. Congratulations, Republican America -- and
congratulations Tony Blair, for being America's Christian poodle in
this horror war crime.

At least here in the UK it looks like Blair's time is up. If only
in America the bells were tolling for Bush.

rm
Well said!

There are quite a few of us here though that have faith that these are also the last days of Bush. Unless of course they rig another election. Bush himself said recently that terror strikes when we are weak. I've never lived through a weaker moment than when my vote didn't count. No wonder 9-11 happened.

They are trying to spin this as WWII to us here in the U.S. and most of the sheep here are eating up. I guess you could say that it is 'kind of' like WWII exept we're the ones with the concentration camp and we're the ones invading, occupying and oppressing. Not once here have I heard mention of fuel rationing, starting a garden to feed yourself and family or war bonds. And there is definitely not a bum's rush to the military recruting offices with everybody signing up for the war despite all the patriotism everybody claims to have and the fact that a lot of people here seem to be needing jobs. Not to mention that out troops need to be relieved. You think these rich white collar guys who defend this war are going to join up? No, like Dan Quayle and George Bush Jr. they'd rather have cocktails at the national gaurd golf course so they pull some strings and dodge baby dodge.

My father and all my uncles fought in WWII it was what they believed they had to do it, was their duty. Now our duty is to do what we're told which is to buy a new car every 2 years, watch reality T.V. while we eat McDonalds and make babies. I can hear all the vets in Arlington cemetery now... they're rolling in their graves. To believe that this is WWII and we're the 'good guys' (my father learned very quickly that there are no 'good' or 'bad' guys on the battlefield, just guys doing what they have to.) cheapens the life and death of every WWII vet even the 'bad guys'. I for one will not let my uncle Ted who died in a bomber have died in vain. I won't let the sacrifice of sanity that my father, his brothers and countless others made be in vain either. It sickens me though that so many here would and you should all be ashamed.

It is true that feedom isn't free. But it's price is not war and death. It is the sacrifice of selfish wants and desires. The price of freedom is tolorance and the reward is peace.
 
sorry i mistyped, that should be thousands a week, but still that's
an awfully large amount. This was reported on kpfk 90.7FM los
angeles I believe you can hear them on the internet at
http://www.kpfk.org They were interviewing different iraqi's who
worked in the morgues around the country.

I believe http://www.guadian.co.uk had some sort of statistics on civilian
deaths too but I'm not positive on that one.
.... (big breath here), what kind of death ? Natural ? Bullet of other military source ? Military personel ? civilians ? And how does it compare with what was before the occupation. Were the sources checked ?

--
Gaetan J.
 

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