What Panasonic/Olympus need to do to evolve m43...

I think the ergonomic differences between Pana and Fuji are subjective.
If they are truly ergonomic differences, they shouldn't be subjective. Ergonomics is precisely about making objective and quantifying the measurement of human interaction with products.

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Ride easy, William.
Bob
 
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IMO, they need an updated sensor bad. To just stay competitive, they need a latest tech sensor with PDAF to track better, have accurate Eye AF, and also to perform better (DR, high ISO....). And they need this new sensor in a small body, not in the flagship.

This is, for Olympus, not just for evolution, but survival.

How many photogs go to Antarctica and war zones?
 
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Recently it has become quite apparent that any criticism of the M43 system or any good words about another camera system in M43speak is now called labelled as “trolling”.


Lots of hunting for Redtrolls under the bed too.

This place is getting really weird.
 
As i learned from your earlier explanation ISO value is just a number to show how much gain is used to brighten the exposure for a proper view (on a screen in most cases).
I hope you didn't learn that from me. One of the points I try to make is that 'ISO' intrinsically has nothing to do with 'gain'. That's one of the misnomers that leads to confusion. Digital still photography was derived from video, and in video there was 'gain' control, that changed the 'gain' of the amplifier driving the cathode ray tube, making the viewed image brighter, so video engineers came to calling the 'brightness' control 'gain'. However, ISO isn't that. The problem with the poor terminology is it leads people to believe that 'signal' is being 'gained' and that signal represents 'light'. The output of a camera is grey scale or 'lightness' and has no link to an absolute amount of light at all. So the exposure isn't being 'brightened', and gain isn't being used to do it. The 'brightening' term was introduced by gollywop, who is a fine and knowledgable fellow, but has the unfortunate consequence of engendering the fallacy described above.

In brief, the output is 'lightness', an exposure has no lightness, the processing of a raw file to a viewable output involves assigning lightness values to measured exposures at the sensor and that process doesn't require 'gain'.
Exposure is only related to time and aperture.
And scene luminance, and also transmission of the lens, including any ND filters.
So if i can manual lower iso value after the exposure, picture is taken , say 3 stops until it's in base "iso" and saves that rawfile manual ,but it showes a proper bright preview on my camera lcd to examen my scene, i can later in a raw developer corrected with 3 stops , and it wil be the same jpeg as the " normal" rawfile or better because the software has a better noisereduction.
Sorry, I'm not following what you're proposing there. You can't change the effects of the ISO control on the raw file after exposure. You can process as you like and assign any set of lightness values to the measured exposures in the raw file.
So if i follow you correct just lose the ISO adjustment, like i-ISO doesn't shows you which ISO value it has chosen only a preview of a rawfile you get when pushing the button.
What I'm proposing is this. A mirrorless camera is monitoring the sensor output all the time up to the exposure, since it is using that output to drive the VF. It can make an assessment therefore of the exposure at the sensor, and adjust the voltage gain (and other capture parameters) to best capture that range of exposures. It can do that without reference to 'ISO' since ISO doesn't change the exposure at the sensor, only changing the light coming from the scene or the aperture or shutter speed does that.
i have set my g80 on max iso 6400 and i-ISO.

This way i only have to think about Aperture and shuttertime.
As I understand it, 'iISO' increases ISO when subject movement is detected, which seems a bit back to front. The aim of raising ISO is to raise shutter speed, why not directly raise shutter speed?
Aperture for DoF and when shuttertime is important switch to S prio.
What when they are both important?
or use -EV for influence the shuttertime and correct later in post.
I think auto modes get needlessly complicated. Why not just set the aperture and shutter speed you want directly?
A noisy shot is better then no shot at al , so why bother to think to be better judge then the i-ISO modes?
Because you know your own acceptance thresholds and iISO doesn't.
 
Did you try out i ISO?

i ve set mine on that to let the camera decide to lower ss when scenery is stationary..
Great idea, the problem is that iISO does not lower the SS under 1/60s. Terrible Implementation by Panasonic. On the newer models (from GH5 on), you can finally set the min.SS manually.
 
absolutely love the A and SS direct controls on the body
For me it's the main reason for not considering those Fuji cameras. There are a few other reasons, but that's the deal-breaker. Two dials that are wasted for somebody mainly shooting aperture priority with auto-ISO.
 
absolutely love the A and SS direct controls on the body
For me it's the main reason for not considering those Fuji cameras. There are a few other reasons, but that's the deal-breaker. Two dials that are wasted for somebody mainly shooting aperture priority with auto-ISO.
I think there are countless people who mainly "shoot aperture priority with auto-ISO".
 
i am interested in is: auto iso, intelligent iso, is there taken account in the area that is called a sensor 's iso invariance ?
I'm going somewhat further, I want the opportunity not to use ISO at all. In the end, there is no need for it. I think a better fist can be made of a user interface where the camera controls the capture electronics to optimise the capture, which a mirrorless camera can do, because the sensor is capturing before you take the photo, so the camera can work out whether there is clipping, or whether clipping is inevitable given the brightness range of the scene. I can't see why that part of what the ISO control does needs to be linked to the film emulation at all. Then, what ISO is actually about, setting the tonal range of the final image, can be metered without reference to ISO, much as though it's metered at the moment.
But, isn't this what cameras with ISO-auto setting already try to do? It is useful in many circumstances, but not all. That is why people set a limit to the maximum ISO that auto-ISO is allowed to use.
I don't think they are doing it as well as it could be done, partly because they aren't separating the two different fictions, optimisation of the read chain to exposure (which should be a purely internal, invisible thing) and the decision on how to render a captured exposure, which IMO is better made after the capture than before.
I like to see ISO, as setting the working point along the sensitivity graph. Not something that can be done after the capture. But I see your idea.
I think today's sensors are just not good enough yet, for a really ISO free camera. A much larger DR would be needed.
It doesn't have much to do with the DR of the sensor, just the way that the camera handles the sensor. In any case, I think it's wrong to say that 'a much larger DR' would be needed, for many sensors a stop would handle it.
If that was the case, then larger sensors could be ISO-free today.
 
absolutely love the A and SS direct controls on the body
For me it's the main reason for not considering those Fuji cameras. There are a few other reasons, but that's the deal-breaker. Two dials that are wasted for somebody mainly shooting aperture priority with auto-ISO.
I think there are countless people who mainly "shoot aperture priority with auto-ISO".
What's your point?
 
Did you try out i ISO?

i ve set mine on that to let the camera decide to lower ss when scenery is stationary..
Great idea, the problem is that iISO does not lower the SS under 1/60s. Terrible Implementation by Panasonic. On the newer models (from GH5 on), you can finally set the min.SS manually.
No, it does lower it e.g. to 1/20 at least with the GX8 and PL12-60. I just tried when I read the advice about using the iISO
 
As i learned from your earlier explanation ISO value is just a number to show how much gain is used to brighten the exposure for a proper view (on a screen in most cases).

Exposure is only related to time and aperture.

So if i can manual lower iso value after the exposure, picture is taken , say 3 stops until it's in base "iso" and saves that rawfile manual ,but it showes a proper bright preview on my camera lcd to examen my scene, i can later in a raw developer corrected with 3 stops , and it wil be the same jpeg as the " normal" rawfile or better because the software has a better noisereduction.

So if i follow you correct just lose the ISO adjustment, like i-ISO doesn't shows you which ISO value it has chosen only a preview of a rawfile you get when pushing the button.

i have set my g80 on max iso 6400 and i-ISO.

This way i only have to think about Aperture and shuttertime.

Aperture for DoF and when shuttertime is important switch to S prio.

or use -EV for influence the shuttertime and correct later in post.

A noisy shot is better then no shot at al , so why bother to think to be better judge then the i-ISO modes?
Because for example with a longer shutter time, you could have both the shot AND a lower noise. In manual mode, YOU make this decision, according to the scene at hand and the circumstances you find yourself in. Like you may be able to lean to a tree or wall, or use a bean bag, or a tripod.... or sweep the camera with a moving object... use flash... wait until that cloud passes...

In i-ISO a software developer made this decision FOR YOU long time ahead of the fact - without even seeing the scene and the circumstances you are in right now.

It's like in a car. If it has a powerful large engine with plenty torque, an automatic gearbox will do an excellent job. If it is a small engine, you may often wish to override the gearbox choices, or wish you a manual gearbox...
 
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As i learned from your earlier explanation ISO value is just a number to show how much gain is used to brighten the exposure for a proper view (on a screen in most cases).
I hope you didn't learn that from me. One of the points I try to make is that 'ISO' intrinsically has nothing to do with 'gain'. That's one of the misnomers that leads to confusion. Digital still photography was derived from video, and in video there was 'gain' control, that changed the 'gain' of the amplifier driving the cathode ray tube, making the viewed image brighter, so video engineers came to calling the 'brightness' control 'gain'. However, ISO isn't that. The problem with the poor terminology is it leads people to believe that 'signal' is being 'gained' and that signal represents 'light'. The output of a camera is grey scale or 'lightness' and has no link to an absolute amount of light at all. So the exposure isn't being 'brightened', and gain isn't being used to do it. The 'brightening' term was introduced by gollywop, who is a fine and knowledgable fellow, but has the unfortunate consequence of engendering the fallacy described above.

In brief, the output is 'lightness', an exposure has no lightness, the processing of a raw file to a viewable output involves assigning lightness values to measured exposures at the sensor and that process doesn't require 'gain'.
Exposure is only related to time and aperture.
And scene luminance, and also transmission of the lens, including any ND filters.
And the base sensitivity of the sensor, of course... which somehow brings ISO back to the table
So if i can manual lower iso value after the exposure, picture is taken , say 3 stops until it's in base "iso" and saves that rawfile manual ,but it showes a proper bright preview on my camera lcd to examen my scene, i can later in a raw developer corrected with 3 stops , and it wil be the same jpeg as the " normal" rawfile or better because the software has a better noisereduction.
Sorry, I'm not following what you're proposing there. You can't change the effects of the ISO control on the raw file after exposure. You can process as you like and assign any set of lightness values to the measured exposures in the raw file.
So if i follow you correct just lose the ISO adjustment, like i-ISO doesn't shows you which ISO value it has chosen only a preview of a rawfile you get when pushing the button.
What I'm proposing is this. A mirrorless camera is monitoring the sensor output all the time up to the exposure, since it is using that output to drive the VF. It can make an assessment therefore of the exposure at the sensor, and adjust the voltage gain (and other capture parameters) to best capture that range of exposures. It can do that without reference to 'ISO' since ISO doesn't change the exposure at the sensor, only changing the light coming from the scene or the aperture or shutter speed does that.
i have set my g80 on max iso 6400 and i-ISO.

This way i only have to think about Aperture and shuttertime.
As I understand it, 'iISO' increases ISO when subject movement is detected, which seems a bit back to front. The aim of raising ISO is to raise shutter speed, why not directly raise shutter speed?
Aperture for DoF and when shuttertime is important switch to S prio.
What when they are both important?
or use -EV for influence the shuttertime and correct later in post.
I think auto modes get needlessly complicated. Why not just set the aperture and shutter speed you want directly?
A noisy shot is better then no shot at al , so why bother to think to be better judge then the i-ISO modes?
Because you know your own acceptance thresholds and iISO doesn't.
 
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As i learned from your earlier explanation ISO value is just a number to show how much gain is used to brighten the exposure for a proper view (on a screen in most cases).
I hope you didn't learn that from me. One of the points I try to make is that 'ISO' intrinsically has nothing to do with 'gain'. That's one of the misnomers that leads to confusion. Digital still photography was derived from video, and in video there was 'gain' control, that changed the 'gain' of the amplifier driving the cathode ray tube, making the viewed image brighter, so video engineers came to calling the 'brightness' control 'gain'. However, ISO isn't that. The problem with the poor terminology is it leads people to believe that 'signal' is being 'gained' and that signal represents 'light'. The output of a camera is grey scale or 'lightness' and has no link to an absolute amount of light at all. So the exposure isn't being 'brightened', and gain isn't being used to do it. The 'brightening' term was introduced by gollywop, who is a fine and knowledgable fellow, but has the unfortunate consequence of engendering the fallacy described above.

In brief, the output is 'lightness', an exposure has no lightness, the processing of a raw file to a viewable output involves assigning lightness values to measured exposures at the sensor and that process doesn't require 'gain'.
Sorry forgot that part (and to point out), That "gain" isn't really a stepped amplifier of the readout . I am already happy as i remember that iso has nothing to do with the sensor and it's exposure result.
Exposure is only related to time and aperture.
And scene luminance, and also transmission of the lens, including any ND filter
yes that to. any filter for that matter.
So if i can manual lower iso value after the exposure, picture is taken , say 3 stops until it's in base "iso" and saves that rawfile manual ,but it showes a proper bright preview on my camera lcd to examen my scene, i can later in a raw developer corrected with 3 stops , and it wil be the same jpeg as the " normal" rawfile or better because the software has a better noisereduction.
Sorry, I'm not following what you're proposing there. You can't change the effects of the ISO control on the raw file after exposure.
ok, sorry, lets say: discard, delete , iso value in the exifdata and it's effect in the making of the raw file, and do all in post. ( If iso isn't that important at it's self because of the fact the sensor is in a certain range iso invariance )

the "problem" can be viewing on the camera's lcd can get very dark. So there is helping iso, to give you a preview how the jpeg would look like without correction.
You can process as you like and assign any set of lightness values to the measured exposures in the raw file.
So if i follow you correct just lose the ISO adjustment, like i-ISO doesn't shows you which ISO value it has chosen only a preview of a rawfile you get when pushing the button.
What I'm proposing is this. A mirrorless camera is monitoring the sensor output all the time up to the exposure, since it is using that output to drive the VF. It can make an assessment therefore of the exposure at the sensor, and adjust the voltage gain (and other capture parameters) to best capture that range of exposures. It can do that without reference to 'ISO' since ISO doesn't change the exposure at the sensor, only changing the light coming from the scene or the aperture or shutter speed does that.
i have set my g80 on max iso 6400 and i-ISO.

This way i only have to think about Aperture and shuttertime.
As I understand it, 'iISO' increases ISO when subject movement is detected, which seems a bit back to front. The aim of raising ISO is to raise shutter speed, why not directly raise shutter speed?
maybe they (the camera) do and the result is a higher iso value?
Aperture for DoF and when shuttertime is important switch to S prio.
What when they are both important?
switch to manual?
or use -EV for influence the shuttertime and correct later in post.
I think auto modes get needlessly complicated. Why not just set the aperture and shutter speed you want directly?
that would be my next experience, i hope the G80 does still has auto iso in manual .

i like automodes 🙂 helps me to avoid fxckups do wrong decicions.
A noisy shot is better then no shot at al , so why bother to think to be better judge then the i-ISO modes?
Because you know your own acceptance thresholds and iISO doesn't.
that's why i set max iso 6400. 6400 is stil "repairable" and gets a acceptable view on my screen. For me that is.

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knowledge is addictive, every time i get some i want more.....
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(If i can remember 1/1000 of everything i learned/read in the past i will be happy as a monky with........)
 
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Did you try out i ISO?

i ve set mine on that to let the camera decide to lower ss when scenery is stationary..
Great idea, the problem is that iISO does not lower the SS under 1/60s. Terrible Implementation by Panasonic. On the newer models (from GH5 on), you can finally set the min.SS manually.
No, it does lower it e.g. to 1/20 at least with the GX8 and PL12-60. I just tried when I read the advice about using the iISO
Haven't you hit the ceiling for ISO? Then it lowers the SS under 1/60s on my cameras, but otherwise it does not do that.
 
I think the ergonomic differences between Pana and Fuji are subjective.
If they are truly ergonomic differences, they shouldn't be subjective. Ergonomics is precisely about making objective and quantifying the measurement of human interaction with products.
I think you're being rather pedantic; my meaning was quite clear, no?

Fuji and Panasonic have basic differences their approach and design around basic controls and menus. Your preference for one approach or the other may be different from someone else's. Therefore, "better" is subjective.

Better?
 
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They have successfully implemented the A/SS direct dials only in the LX100 series which was a great success and they also have the success story of Fuji cameras (among other things, I believe the A/SS controls are one of their differentiating factors). I can't understand why don't they use this approach to more models especially their RF range.
Perhaps because it's likely more people prefer the dual customizable dial setup?
 
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I think the ergonomic differences between Pana and Fuji are subjective.
If they are truly ergonomic differences, they shouldn't be subjective. Ergonomics is precisely about making objective and quantifying the measurement of human interaction with products.
I think you're being rather pedantic; my meaning was quite clear, no?

Fuji and Panasonic have basic differences their approach and design around basic controls and menus. Your preference for one approach or the other may be different from someone else's. Therefore, "better" is subjective.

Better?
Another example is the flat grip-less or minimal grip design of most fujis vs cameras with a grip like an SLR. Which is "better" objectively?
 
I think the ergonomic differences between Pana and Fuji are subjective.
If they are truly ergonomic differences, they shouldn't be subjective. Ergonomics is precisely about making objective and quantifying the measurement of human interaction with products.
I think you're being rather pedantic; my meaning was quite clear, no?
Yes, but your misuse of the word 'ergonomics' was worth commenting on, since other people might be misled about what the word actually means.
Fuji and Panasonic have basic differences their approach and design around basic controls and menus. Your preference for one approach or the other may be different from someone else's. Therefore, "better" is subjective.

Better?
Another example is the flat grip-less or minimal grip design of most fujis vs cameras with a grip like an SLR. Which is "better" objectively?
To make an objective judgement, you first have to ask a more defined question than 'which is better'. Which characteristics do you want to compare? For which purpose? One of the reasons that I try to use precise terminology is that sloppy choice of words leads to sloppy thinking.

That relates to the question of the differences in the user interface between Fujifilm and Panasonic. The UI of the Fujus is not so much centred around ergonomics. They favour UIs based on traditional film cameras, where the placement and function of the controls was dictated more by mechanical constraints than by the dynamics of interaction. I suspect that the Panasonic Corporation has an active ergonomics units, and their cameras tend to reveal its influence. Which is 'better' for you, well that's a personal judgment.
 
Sorry, I'm not following what you're proposing there. You can't change the effects of the ISO control on the raw file after exposure.
ok, sorry, lets say: discard, delete , iso value in the exifdata and it's effect in the making of the raw file, and do all in post. ( If iso isn't that important at it's self because of the fact the sensor is in a certain range iso invariance )

the "problem" can be viewing on the camera's lcd can get very dark. So there is helping iso, to give you a preview how the jpeg would look like without correction.
What do you mean by 'correction'. We agreed that the raw file has no intrinsic lightness. It is only the ISO in the current workflow which determines how the exposure will be rendered. In an ISO free workflow, there is no problem with the VR displaying the projected rendering of the image.
As I understand it, 'iISO' increases ISO when subject movement is detected, which seems a bit back to front. The aim of raising ISO is to raise shutter speed, why not directly raise shutter speed?
maybe they (the camera) do and the result is a higher iso value?
The shutter speed has nothing to do with ISO unless you let the ISO setting bias the meter. So what I'm setting is why bother with ISO at all, if you want the higher shutter speed, just set it.
Aperture for DoF and when shuttertime is important switch to S prio.
What when they are both important?
switch to manual?
And then, what do you do with ISO, in the current workflow?
or use -EV for influence the shuttertime and correct later in post.
I think auto modes get needlessly complicated. Why not just set the aperture and shutter speed you want directly?
that would be my next experience, i hope the G80 does still has auto iso in manual .
Why have ISO at all?
i like automodes 🙂 helps me to avoid fxckups do wrong decicions.
What decision is to be made?
A noisy shot is better then no shot at al , so why bother to think to be better judge then the i-ISO modes?
Because you know your own acceptance thresholds and iISO doesn't.
that's why i set max iso 6400. 6400 is stil "repairable" and gets a acceptable view on my screen. For me that is.
Your posts show how deeply ingrained the film simulation and 'ISO' has become. Setting a maximum ISO does nothing to prevent your images from becoming noisy, it just marks a point at which the camera will override your exposure decisions (if you're using Auto ISO with another auto mode). So, why not just keep control yourself?
 

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