So tired of compromising...

bkjones88 said:

Michael Fryd said:

Richrf said:

bkjones88 said:

...

Click to expand...

There are all excuses for insanely inept product design and marketing that is totally out of touch with the marketplace. Digital cameras are being designed and sold for a rapidly shrinking group of technophiles who enjoy technological complexity and churn. These digital gadgets are as remote from the hobby of photography as they can be. A total disaster. My guess is that the product designers don't even use these gadgets.

Click to expand...

The marketplace as a whole is not interested in interchangeable lens cameras (ILC). The cameras that are designed for the marketplace as a whole are called "smartphones."

The ILC market is a shrinking niche market. Not because of flaws with ILC cameras, but due to improvements in smartphones.

When the car became mainstream, the downturn in sales of horse drawn carriages was not due to deficiencies in the design of those carriages. The decline in sales of horse drawn carriages was due to the market moving towards powered vehicles.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. In another thread, I believe Richrf made the statement that his smartphone camera is all the camera he needs. Which is great for him, but I don't understand the hand-wringing over a market segment he's not interested in. I don't own or need a pickup truck, but I don't go on car forums and complain about Ford's truck lineup and how it doesn't cater to those who just want a small, economical commuter car.

Click to expand...

I see what you're saying but a truck is completely different - functionally - to a commuter car. The load carrying capacity, the engine, the frame, the gearbox, suspension, pretty much everything needs to be redone.

Adding a mic input jack or a few gaskets around buttons isn't quite that radical. (Sure you can nitpick, and I agree that its subjective to a degree).

So at one extreme we're not asking for 'free stuff'. At the other extreme, we don't want businesses to nickel and dime us either. Oh you want video features too? That's $200 more. Oh you want 20FPS, that's $50 more per FPS, etc, etc. IMO Consumer backlash is essential to the proper functioning of a market. With no consumer pressure, products would never improve.

jhunna said:

Camera companies need to just put everything in every camera and call it a day. MAYBE have two form factors (range finder and DSLR styles), but stop leaving pieces out.

For instance, ALL new cameras should be:

• weather sealed
• some sort of IS (in body or lens)
• in body charging and power through usb-c
• wireless connectivity (preferably Bluetooth)
• have a hot shoe and a viewfinder
• if they shoot video, a mic input jack

These are features that will work in the lowest point and shoot to the highest pro camera.

If you are a built in lens camera with leaf shutter you should sync to any flash (G1XM3 doesn't sync with external flash, not even sure how that's possible) and you should have some nd filters built in.

From there let the variety come in the form of button placement, body styles, add on features, sensor sizes, etc... As an example, I have a GX8 and a GX85. The GX85 isn't weather sealed and doesn't have a mic jack. The GX8 doesn't have in body charging. If they both had everything listed above then the differing aspects would be limited to handling, size, and higher end aspects such as the better EVF and the sharper sensor. I wold gladly pay the $500+ premium for the GX8 if that's my budget, if not, then there is the GX85. BUT as it stands neither camera really fits my desires 100%.

...and its disappointing.

Click to expand...

So you mean like a Sony a6500 and all recent a7 series and the a9?

or Fuji X-H1?

jhunna said:

Camera companies need to just put everything in every camera and call it a day. MAYBE have two form factors (range finder and DSLR styles), but stop leaving pieces out.

For instance, ALL new cameras should be:

• weather sealed
• some sort of IS (in body or lens)
• in body charging and power through usb-c
• wireless connectivity (preferably Bluetooth)
• have a hot shoe and a viewfinder
• if they shoot video, a mic input jack

These are features that will work in the lowest point and shoot to the highest pro camera.

If you are a built in lens camera with leaf shutter you should sync to any flash (G1XM3 doesn't sync with external flash, not even sure how that's possible) and you should have some nd filters built in.

From there let the variety come in the form of button placement, body styles, add on features, sensor sizes, etc... As an example, I have a GX8 and a GX85. The GX85 isn't weather sealed and doesn't have a mic jack. The GX8 doesn't have in body charging. If they both had everything listed above then the differing aspects would be limited to handling, size, and higher end aspects such as the better EVF and the sharper sensor. I wold gladly pay the $500+ premium for the GX8 if that's my budget, if not, then there is the GX85. BUT as it stands neither camera really fits my desires 100%.

...and its disappointing.

Click to expand...

I find it a bit awkward to respond to your post since from my perspective, and my decades of experience, well, you started compromising with the first Pany you bought. Assigning your dissatisfaction to a design shortcoming of a pocketable camera is rather disingenuous.

You bought a pony, that is the cart that comes with it. If you want the advantages of a full spec cross country caravan get a Clydesdale next time.

Or be disappointed.

Zoc said:

Zoc said:

mamallama wrote:.

I never did understand the merits of in-camera charging. With the risks and heat generated by battery charging I never thought that my camera should also double as a battery charger. Moreover battery chargers are dirt cheap and your high tech camera is not tied up doing a mundane function..

Click to expand...

The risks and heat seem to work out fine in every smartphone ever made.

Click to expand...

Many people are carrying around bulky external batteries because they want to use the smartphone instead of having to stop and charge it.

Zoc said:

In-camera charging means you can use any generic USB charger, so you don’t have to take another bulky charger when traveling.

Click to expand...

Mine is not bulky at all. Not much larger than the USB cord you need to charge your battery in your camera. And I can still be charging my batteries when still using my camera.

Zoc said:

You can use a battery pack instead of taking extra batteries, and you can skip the expense of hacky dummy battery/DC converter kits for long exposures and studio work.

Click to expand...

I find having extra batteries is simpler than tethering my camera to something else.

Zoc said:

It’s definitely worthwhile and should only add a tiny tiny extra cost to manufacture.

Click to expand...

Yes the manufacturer saves money by putting the charger in your camera rather than supplying you with a stand alone charger.

Michael Fryd said:

Michael Fryd wrote...

Don't forget

• GPS
• Built-in stereo microphone for video
• Ability to use built-in mic to add voice annotations to images.
• Built-in level
• Face detection for auto-focus
• RGB+IR subject tracking for fast moving subjects
• Automatic correction of lens issues (vignetting, barrel/pincushion distortion)
• Optional automatic correction of vertical lines. If you are shooting a building, the camera knows how far it is from you, and the angle you are holding the camera, it can correct the image so the walls of the building are straight, and don't look like they are converging.
• 50+ megapixels
• 12+ frames per second
• Built-in flash
• Built-in wireless control of off-camera flash
• 120 FPS 4K video
• Capture of depth information to allow narrowing of depth of field in post processing (for instance Canon's Dual Pixel Raw files)

Click to expand...

Excellent additions!

I'll pick the +50 mp, so now I have...

weathersealing

viewfinder

+50 mp, which actually must be +70 mp before I'll upgrade from my 36 mp....

So, Nikon! Are you listening? Cut the crap bling and deliver a no-nonsense, down-to-basic, sensor-bolted-to-frame for... what? $3000?

I'll snap it up faster than you can say "Canon"! :-D

The items that are listed are not expensive, don't really add weight, and allow for there to be different segments for the market. I was not asking for luxury items, I was just asking that the camera makers stop purposely dumbing down the camera.

Weather sealing is the fz300 but not the fz1000 why? Fz300 is the cheaper camera, and weather sealing is seen as a premium add on.

I believe MOST newly released camera's allow for in camera charging and wireless connectivity and control. So I can check that box. By the way, I always have a charger with me, and I can charge everything EXCEPT an older model camera. I still carry extra camera batteries but its nice being able to top off the in camera battery when my extra isn't available.

Regarding a VF its a camera I shouldn't need to justify this, nor should it be excluded.

As I said before I didn't speak to touch screens, flippy screens, sensor size, minimum fstops, 4k video, sharpness of the lens, etc... because that's where manufacturers can apply their market segmentation.

But I would love to be able to pick up a camera and know that if it rained, or if I forgot my batteries, or if the sun is too bright I can still utilize the camera without worry.

(yeah I got the Toyota/Infinit thing crossed up, my mistake)

Richrf said:

There are all excuses for insanely inept product design and marketing that is totally out of touch with the marketplace. Digital cameras are being designed and sold for a rapidly shrinking group of technophiles who enjoy technological complexity and churn. These digital gadgets are as remote from the hobby of photography as they can be. A total disaster. My guess is that the product designers don't even use these gadgets.

Click to expand...

In that case it should be easy for you to get together the capital to capture the whole market, just think, next year you could be a billionaire.

jhunna said:

The items that are listed are not expensive, don't really add weight, and allow for there to be different segments for the market. I was not asking for luxury items, I was just asking that the camera makers stop purposely dumbing down the camera.

Weather sealing is the fz300 but not the fz1000 why? Fz300 is the cheaper camera, and weather sealing is seen as a premium add on.

I believe MOST newly released camera's allow for in camera charging and wireless connectivity and control. So I can check that box. By the way, I always have a charger with me, and I can charge everything EXCEPT an older model camera. I still carry extra camera batteries but its nice being able to top off the in camera battery when my extra isn't available.

Regarding a VF its a camera I shouldn't need to justify this, nor should it be excluded.

As I said before I didn't speak to touch screens, flippy screens, sensor size, minimum fstops, 4k video, sharpness of the lens, etc... because that's where manufacturers can apply their market segmentation.

But I would love to be able to pick up a camera and know that if it rained, or if I forgot my batteries, or if the sun is too bright I can still utilize the camera without worry.
(yeah I got the Toyota/Infinit thing crossed up, my mistake)

Click to expand...

You're not an engineer are you?

Tuonov2 said:

jhunna said:

The items that are listed are not expensive, don't really add weight, and allow for there to be different segments for the market. I was not asking for luxury items, I was just asking that the camera makers stop purposely dumbing down the camera.

Weather sealing is the fz300 but not the fz1000 why? Fz300 is the cheaper camera, and weather sealing is seen as a premium add on.

I believe MOST newly released camera's allow for in camera charging and wireless connectivity and control. So I can check that box. By the way, I always have a charger with me, and I can charge everything EXCEPT an older model camera. I still carry extra camera batteries but its nice being able to top off the in camera battery when my extra isn't available.

Regarding a VF its a camera I shouldn't need to justify this, nor should it be excluded.

As I said before I didn't speak to touch screens, flippy screens, sensor size, minimum fstops, 4k video, sharpness of the lens, etc... because that's where manufacturers can apply their market segmentation.

But I would love to be able to pick up a camera and know that if it rained, or if I forgot my batteries, or if the sun is too bright I can still utilize the camera without worry.
(yeah I got the Toyota/Infinit thing crossed up, my mistake)

Click to expand...

You're not an engineer are you?

Click to expand...

it always turns personal...

jhunna said:

robblackett said:

jhunna said:

Camera companies need to just put everything in every camera and call it a day. MAYBE have two form factors (range finder and DSLR styles), but stop leaving pieces out.

For instance, ALL new cameras should be:

• weather sealed
• some sort of IS (in body or lens)
• in body charging and power through usb-c
• wireless connectivity (preferably Bluetooth)
• have a hot shoe and a viewfinder
• if they shoot video, a mic input jack

These are features that will work in the lowest point and shoot to the highest pro camera.

If you are a built in lens camera with leaf shutter you should sync to any flash (G1XM3 doesn't sync with external flash, not even sure how that's possible) and you should have some nd filters built in.

From there let the variety come in the form of button placement, body styles, add on features, sensor sizes, etc... As an example, I have a GX8 and a GX85. The GX85 isn't weather sealed and doesn't have a mic jack. The GX8 doesn't have in body charging. If they both had everything listed above then the differing aspects would be limited to handling, size, and higher end aspects such as the better EVF and the sharper sensor. I wold gladly pay the $500+ premium for the GX8 if that's my budget, if not, then there is the GX85. BUT as it stands neither camera really fits my desires 100%.

...and its disappointing.

Click to expand...

What you're asking for will never happen. Most manufacturers could perhaps make your 'perfect' camera (although it probably wouldn't be someone else's perfect camera).

But if they did away with market segmentation it would reduce the product range to potentially just one model. So maybe great for you (if it happened to suit your needs and you could afford it) but not viable for the manufacturer because no reason to upgrade and vastly reduced sales volume overall. And because sales volume would be reduced so would profits and therefore much smaller re-investment into development of new products. Ultimately that's not great for the consumer.

It's not only camera manufacturers that use this business model - think about cars for example. In any given range you can pay $ thousands more for a top model compared with the base model. It's basically the same car and these days the base model probably even contains most of the same circuits and software which would enable those extra features you pay through the nose for, only they're not switched on!

Click to expand...

Your car analogy is pretty much making my point. In the old days GM would take one platform and market it to several people Chevy, Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Cadillac. Market confusion and they LOST money. So they simplified. The japanese did it the right way, Honda went with Acurra and Toyota with Infinity. Two brands same base models AND MORE profitable....
Give me a base camera for enthusiasts, with the features mentioned in the original post, and then give me the pro version with better sensors/mega pixels/etc...

Click to expand...

The reason those models lost money was because they were garbage. GM made really bad vehicles. So the market confusion was, "Why on earth did I waste my money on this trash?"

bkjones88 said:

Michael Fryd said:

Richrf said:

bkjones88 said:

...

Click to expand...

There are all excuses for insanely inept product design and marketing that is totally out of touch with the marketplace. Digital cameras are being designed and sold for a rapidly shrinking group of technophiles who enjoy technological complexity and churn. These digital gadgets are as remote from the hobby of photography as they can be. A total disaster. My guess is that the product designers don't even use these gadgets.

Click to expand...

The marketplace as a whole is not interested in interchangeable lens cameras (ILC). The cameras that are designed for the marketplace as a whole are called "smartphones."

The ILC market is a shrinking niche market. Not because of flaws with ILC cameras, but due to improvements in smartphones.

When the car became mainstream, the downturn in sales of horse drawn carriages was not due to deficiencies in the design of those carriages. The decline in sales of horse drawn carriages was due to the market moving towards powered vehicles.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. In another thread, I believe Richrf made the statement that his smartphone camera is all the camera he needs. Which is great for him, but I don't understand the hand-wringing over a market segment he's not interested in. I don't own or need a pickup truck, but I don't go on car forums and complain about Ford's truck lineup and how it doesn't cater to those who just want a small, economical commuter car.

Click to expand...

What I said was that digital cameras are only interesting to a rapidly shrinking marketplace of technolophiles who are willing to spend thousands of dollars for complex and chaotic gadgets that produce images that have to be corrected by even more complex post-processing software.

That this craze lasted even this long before imploding is amazing. Yet, the President of Canon, after observing the new gadgets his product team has created, has presciently forecasted an even more accelerated decline over the next two years and has more or less thrown in the towel. I guess he has decided to change direction.

Hopefully, the whole product development team is shipped out to Siberia and new developers, who understand what photography is all about, brings the hobby back to the millions who have left in disgust.

Richrf said:

Richrf said:

...

Click to expand...

What I said was that digital cameras are only interesting to a rapidly shrinking marketplace of technolophiles who are willing to spend thousands of dollars for complex and chaotic gadgets that produce images that have to be corrected by even more complex post-processing software.

...

Click to expand...

Actually, smartphones tend to have even more complicated software. Those lenses need more corrections, and the small apertures require more aggressive noise reduction. Some smartphones have software that combines data from multiple camera modules, and/or simulates shallow depth of field with software.

Compared to smartphones, the in-camera DSLR software that processes the raw data is simple.

jhunna said:

Tuonov2 said:

jhunna said:

The items that are listed are not expensive, don't really add weight, and allow for there to be different segments for the market. I was not asking for luxury items, I was just asking that the camera makers stop purposely dumbing down the camera.

Weather sealing is the fz300 but not the fz1000 why? Fz300 is the cheaper camera, and weather sealing is seen as a premium add on.

I believe MOST newly released camera's allow for in camera charging and wireless connectivity and control. So I can check that box. By the way, I always have a charger with me, and I can charge everything EXCEPT an older model camera. I still carry extra camera batteries but its nice being able to top off the in camera battery when my extra isn't available.

Regarding a VF its a camera I shouldn't need to justify this, nor should it be excluded.

As I said before I didn't speak to touch screens, flippy screens, sensor size, minimum fstops, 4k video, sharpness of the lens, etc... because that's where manufacturers can apply their market segmentation.

But I would love to be able to pick up a camera and know that if it rained, or if I forgot my batteries, or if the sun is too bright I can still utilize the camera without worry.
(yeah I got the Toyota/Infinit thing crossed up, my mistake)

Click to expand...

You're not an engineer are you?

Click to expand...

it always turns personal...

Click to expand...

You're easily offended? Why is stating a fact 'personal'?

If someone said to me 'you're not a doctor are you?' I wouldn't be offended in the least......

jhunna said:

Camera companies need to just put everything in every camera and call it a day. MAYBE have two form factors (range finder and DSLR styles), but stop leaving pieces out.

For instance, ALL new cameras should be:

• weather sealed
• some sort of IS (in body or lens)
• in body charging and power through usb-c
• wireless connectivity (preferably Bluetooth)
• have a hot shoe and a viewfinder
• if they shoot video, a mic input jack

These are features that will work in the lowest point and shoot to the highest pro camera.

If you are a built in lens camera with leaf shutter you should sync to any flash (G1XM3 doesn't sync with external flash, not even sure how that's possible) and you should have some nd filters built in.

From there let the variety come in the form of button placement, body styles, add on features, sensor sizes, etc... As an example, I have a GX8 and a GX85. The GX85 isn't weather sealed and doesn't have a mic jack. The GX8 doesn't have in body charging. If they both had everything listed above then the differing aspects would be limited to handling, size, and higher end aspects such as the better EVF and the sharper sensor. I wold gladly pay the $500+ premium for the GX8 if that's my budget, if not, then there is the GX85. BUT as it stands neither camera really fits my desires 100%.

...and its disappointing.

Click to expand...

I think your anticipated $500 premium is about $1,500 short of reality. An all-in-one camera would need to be somewhere around $3,500 to keep a company in business. Seems even at that price, the company would be short lived.

And, don’t forget that some buyers like to have features that only they can afford, just human nature.

True. Even after I purchased my new camera, there were aspects about it that I never found on reviews and that I didn't even think about before the time. Sometimes, a situation, for example, an unexpected fog, can ruin your intended photo, but other times, it can be because of an inferior feature or something that's simply missing. The good is that a lack of features can be worked around by focusing on skill and technique.

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31391486@N04/

jhunna said:

Camera companies need to just put everything in every camera and call it a day. MAYBE have two form factors (range finder and DSLR styles), but stop leaving pieces out.

For instance, ALL new cameras should be:

• weather sealed
• some sort of IS (in body or lens)
• in body charging and power through usb-c
• wireless connectivity (preferably Bluetooth)
• have a hot shoe and a viewfinder
• if they shoot video, a mic input jack

These are features that will work in the lowest point and shoot to the highest pro camera.

If you are a built in lens camera with leaf shutter you should sync to any flash (G1XM3 doesn't sync with external flash, not even sure how that's possible) and you should have some nd filters built in.

From there let the variety come in the form of button placement, body styles, add on features, sensor sizes, etc... As an example, I have a GX8 and a GX85. The GX85 isn't weather sealed and doesn't have a mic jack. The GX8 doesn't have in body charging. If they both had everything listed above then the differing aspects would be limited to handling, size, and higher end aspects such as the better EVF and the sharper sensor. I wold gladly pay the $500+ premium for the GX8 if that's my budget, if not, then there is the GX85. BUT as it stands neither camera really fits my desires 100%.

...and its disappointing.

Click to expand...

they should also make a 1mm-8000mm zoom, that way we wouldn't have to make any lens compromises once we had our 'no compromise' body to mount it on :-D

The entire world doesn't revolve around a single person, and so many people on this website spend way too much time complaining about it.

gary0319 said:

jhunna said:

Camera companies need to just put everything in every camera and call it a day. MAYBE have two form factors (range finder and DSLR styles), but stop leaving pieces out.

For instance, ALL new cameras should be:

• weather sealed
• some sort of IS (in body or lens)
• in body charging and power through usb-c
• wireless connectivity (preferably Bluetooth)
• have a hot shoe and a viewfinder
• if they shoot video, a mic input jack

These are features that will work in the lowest point and shoot to the highest pro camera.

If you are a built in lens camera with leaf shutter you should sync to any flash (G1XM3 doesn't sync with external flash, not even sure how that's possible) and you should have some nd filters built in.

From there let the variety come in the form of button placement, body styles, add on features, sensor sizes, etc... As an example, I have a GX8 and a GX85. The GX85 isn't weather sealed and doesn't have a mic jack. The GX8 doesn't have in body charging. If they both had everything listed above then the differing aspects would be limited to handling, size, and higher end aspects such as the better EVF and the sharper sensor. I wold gladly pay the $500+ premium for the GX8 if that's my budget, if not, then there is the GX85. BUT as it stands neither camera really fits my desires 100%.

...and its disappointing.

Click to expand...

I think your anticipated $500 premium is about $1,500 short of reality. An all-in-one camera would need to be somewhere around $3,500 to keep a company in business. Seems even at that price, the company would be short lived.

Click to expand...

The Sony a6500 comes pretty close and costs nowhere near that and it's tiny.

I just want a Sony APSC or Full Frame camera that no longer overheats. Unlimited recording would be nice too, but I'm willing to settle for a hardware fix for the overheat.

Tuonov2 said:

jhunna said:

Tuonov2 said:

jhunna said:

The items that are listed are not expensive, don't really add weight, and allow for there to be different segments for the market. I was not asking for luxury items, I was just asking that the camera makers stop purposely dumbing down the camera.

Weather sealing is the fz300 but not the fz1000 why? Fz300 is the cheaper camera, and weather sealing is seen as a premium add on.

I believe MOST newly released camera's allow for in camera charging and wireless connectivity and control. So I can check that box. By the way, I always have a charger with me, and I can charge everything EXCEPT an older model camera. I still carry extra camera batteries but its nice being able to top off the in camera battery when my extra isn't available.

Regarding a VF its a camera I shouldn't need to justify this, nor should it be excluded.

As I said before I didn't speak to touch screens, flippy screens, sensor size, minimum fstops, 4k video, sharpness of the lens, etc... because that's where manufacturers can apply their market segmentation.

But I would love to be able to pick up a camera and know that if it rained, or if I forgot my batteries, or if the sun is too bright I can still utilize the camera without worry.
(yeah I got the Toyota/Infinit thing crossed up, my mistake)

Click to expand...

You're not an engineer are you?

Click to expand...

it always turns personal...

Click to expand...

You're easily offended? Why is stating a fact 'personal'?

If someone said to me 'you're not a doctor are you?' I wouldn't be offended in the least......

Click to expand...

You win.