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the way the world is going.

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DiffractionLtd said:
Bobthearch said:
The American economy encourages (forces?) workers to be mobile, flexible, and versatile. Pouring beers one week, plowing a field the next, highway construction the next... geologist, archaeologist, photographer, driving railroad spikes, or loading a coal train... I've just about done it all.

Where I live, you do whatever work is needed or you starve.

So far though I've turned down every offer to be a wedding or event photographer. Ugh, I can't imagine.
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Your employment record sounds infinitely more interesting than some guy who spends his life in a cubicle.
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I just spent two weeks in the Aussie bush for a geophysicist, all weekend was spent pouring beers at the pub, and tomorrow is a side gig doing construction material analysis.
 
DiffractionLtd said:
sybersitizen said:
Donald B said:
Read this on social media and had a laugh.

"Anyone know or is anyone a wedding photographer and needing a 2nd photographer."
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That sounds reasonable. It's a time-honored way to learn something.
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Not that you'd know it. Screeching millenials are now demanding to be paid for internships, even though it's technically just an extension of school. Entitled little brats.
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If companies did not find value in offering internships they would not offer them, so they pay interns. Interns often bring fresh ideas to companies, spread the word about a company's brand to their peers, and both are worth paying for.

You got to get a grip and understand the old world order has been knocked down and replaced by the new order. You don't have to like it, but it is the reality.

Companies only do what is in their interest or the interest of their shareholders. These days it's in their interest to pay interns.

There are no free lunches anymore in particular for the companies of the olden days and yesteryear. Most of them are gone anyway.

--
Bill Poplawski (Photographer)
San Mateo, CA 94402
~ there is beauty in every face ~
https://www.billpoplawskiphotography.com
 
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Donald B said:
Moti said:
Donald B said:
Aaron801 said:
I don't really see a problem with that. At least this person doesn't have a shingle out offering wedding photography not ever having been a second shooter first. Generally to do anything really well takes some amount of experience, but how do you get that experience? Seems like being a second shooter would be the obvious way for wedding photography. If the thing is structured so that the 2nd shooter is doing the less challenging shots, if that person is a pretty good photographer already and if they're a pretty quick learner, it could work out very well, right?
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sorry dont agree, when i started out in the yachting world then to become a ships captain. i studied at nautical/aviation school for 6 years, at the same time i built a 35 foot yacht to commercial survey. then i approached a well known yacht to joining as crew as completed theory ocean masters course. so they excepted me as navigator. then when't on to solo sailing my first 10,000 miles on my own yacht (practical experience) to then holding a full qualification. then sat a few more courses and worked as a paid skipper of yachts up to 90 ft then applying for my commercial license . then i built a 47 foot ocean survey yacht and started my "own" business. as i said no pain no gain. just get off your behind is how you make it, not sucking up to someone else.

Don
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Oh dear, of course Don, but let's not forget that compared to to the average person waking on the streets, you are the exceptional genius and no one can simply come close to your level. Of course you are also very modest.

But all your blah blah is completely irrelevant to the subject because if you haven't understood yet, a yacht is not a camera and wedding photography is different from sailing and requires different skill, different approach and diffetent training.

Working as a second shooter for weddings is a very important part of this training and practicing and there are no shortcuts. only stupid photographers would skip that part. So actually, there was a very good treason or the photographer bin your OP to enquirer about that.

Moti
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Any person with a passion will become anything they wont,
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sure 🤔 I want to become an Opera singer. I have the passion.
Member said:
my 16 yo daughter still has 2 years left at high school and is planning a double degree in Medicine and teaching and as i have told her if she want's to succeed in medicine she must have a passion for it not just study it. she did top biology last year and enjoys it so only time will tell.

second shooter LOL learn by your self
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How? Where? What? Remember, the person wants to become a wedding photographer.
Member said:
if your going to be good at photography go take photos and study the art.
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That can help but it still won't get you to become a wedding photographer.
Member said:
theirs no short cuts ,
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now you just contradict yourself.
Member said:
build a portfolio of your own
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What portfolio? Spiders? Landscape? You need a wedding portfolio, shot during a real wedding. how would you build one? Steal images from others?
Member said:
and make your own mistakes and be responsible for them.
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You are not allowed to make any mistakes when you shoot weddings.
Member said:
no ones life is at risk,
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No but some wedding photographer ended up In court because of stupid mistakes they did.
Member said:
mind you some photographers have a different opinion :-)
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True, that is because they are less ignorants than you, more experienced then you and more clever. But anyway, thanks for a good lough.

Moti
 
p0ppyman said:
Moti said:
Donald B said:
Aaron801 said:
I don't really see a problem with that. At least this person doesn't have a shingle out offering wedding photography not ever having been a second shooter first. Generally to do anything really well takes some amount of experience, but how do you get that experience? Seems like being a second shooter would be the obvious way for wedding photography. If the thing is structured so that the 2nd shooter is doing the less challenging shots, if that person is a pretty good photographer already and if they're a pretty quick learner, it could work out very well, right?
Click to expand...
sorry dont agree, when i started out in the yachting world then to become a ships captain. i studied at nautical/aviation school for 6 years, at the same time i built a 35 foot yacht to commercial survey. then i approached a well known yacht to joining as crew as completed theory ocean masters course. so they excepted me as navigator. then when't on to solo sailing my first 10,000 miles on my own yacht (practical experience) to then holding a full qualification. then sat a few more courses and worked as a paid skipper of yachts up to 90 ft then applying for my commercial license . then i built a 47 foot ocean survey yacht and started my "own" business. as i said no pain no gain. just get off your behind is how you make it, not sucking up to someone else.

Don
Click to expand...
Oh dear, of course Don, but let's not forget that compared to to the average person waking on the streets, you are the exceptional genius and no one can simply come close to your level. Of course you are also very modest.

But all your blah blah is completely irrelevant to the subject because if you haven't understood yet, a yacht is not a camera and wedding photography is different from sailing and requires different skills, different approach and diffetent training.

Working as a second shooter for weddings is a very important part of this training and practicing and there are no shortcuts. only stupid photographers would skip that part. So actually, there was a very good treason or the photographer bin your OP to enquirer about that.

Moti
Click to expand...
I really don't know what world some who post on this forum live in. The reality is there are some truly exceptional people in this world, many more than most might think. And I take Don at his word until I find out otherwise.
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I don't know either but as far as I'm concerned, I am a wedding photographer with about 250 weddings behind my back so trust me that I am very familiar with the subject and I am talking out of knowledge and experience.
p0ppyman said:
The worlds information is at a person's fingertips these days thanks to Google, its property YouTube, and the Internet.

People don't bow to some old world order anymore. If you want it, get off your ass, and go for it.
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Oh I did it. How do you think I became a wedding photographer?
p0ppyman said:
If you want to be a wedding photographer, or many other things for that matter, commit yourself to watch a month's worth of YouTube, 40 hours a week, and in a month your ready.
Click to expand...
that is like suggesting to to learn to become a sergeant by watching YouTube.
p0ppyman said:
Chances are you'll do OK if you are conservative on what you accept for your first gig.

And if you fail, learn from it and do better the next time. The world will not end and the sun will come up again tomorrow.
Click to expand...
you are not allowed to do mistakes in this field otherwise the world may end for you and the next sun you see might be through a jail window.
p0ppyman said:
If you have the courage to reach for the brass ring chances are you'll be successful. I've lived my life this way and I'm a long way from exceptional. But I believe in myself and I keep a positive frame of mind at all times. I shut the door on naysayers whenever they pop up but YMMV.
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Moti
 
I don't really see where the debate is that some of you are having based on what I said. I'm certainly not saying that anyone with zero experience in photography is ready to shoot a wedding, even as a second shooter. No, what I'm saying is that someone with experience in the photographic medium who's interested in pursuing wedding photography would be wise to start by looking for work as a second shooter.

With all due respect, I think that some folks are taking the most negative, cynical tact here and assuming that the the person that the OP is writing about is some kind of novice who probably doesn't even know which end is up on a camera and therefore isn't ready to even make the step of being a second shooter at a wedding. The fact is that based on the ad that's being referenced, we don't really know what kind of experience the person has. Of course if I'm the primary shooter who's hiring this second shooter person, I'm going to look at a portfolio and quiz them to see if they seem to be ready to take on this responsibility... that's a given. If I'm not a super-high priced wedding photog though, I'm not going to have so much to offer a second shooter for pay so I might be hiring folks who don't have any direct wedding experience, but like I said you have to start somewhere.

If I was a person who had to take advice from some of the folks here, I might assume that in order to be a second shooter at a wedding I'd probably first have to build my own film camera from scratch and then research chemistry so that I could create my own chemicals to use in developing the film. That might actually be an interesting exercise, but I'm not sure that it would bring me any closer to being qualified to be a 2nd shooter at a wedding...

--
my flickr:
www.flickr.com/photos/128435329@N08/
 
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p0ppyman said:
If you want to be a wedding photographer, or many other things for that matter, commit yourself to watch a month's worth of YouTube, 40 hours a week, and in a month your ready.
Click to expand...
LOL! :-):-):-) This made my day; a bit too late but it did!
 
Pontoneer said:
Bobthearch said:
The American economy encourages (forces?) workers to be mobile, flexible, and versatile. Pouring beers one week, plowing a field the next, highway construction the next... geologist, archaeologist, photographer, driving railroad spikes, or loading a coal train... I've just about done it all.

Where I live, you do whatever work is needed or you starve.

So far though I've turned down every offer to be a wedding or event photographer. Ugh, I can't imagine.
Click to expand...
Plowing a field ?!?!

Cant you spell plough ? Ploughing a field .
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Plough? Does that rhyme with cough, rough, though or through?
 
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Moti said:
p0ppyman said:
Moti said:
Donald B said:
Aaron801 said:
I don't really see a problem with that. At least this person doesn't have a shingle out offering wedding photography not ever having been a second shooter first. Generally to do anything really well takes some amount of experience, but how do you get that experience? Seems like being a second shooter would be the obvious way for wedding photography. If the thing is structured so that the 2nd shooter is doing the less challenging shots, if that person is a pretty good photographer already and if they're a pretty quick learner, it could work out very well, right?
Click to expand...
sorry dont agree, when i started out in the yachting world then to become a ships captain. i studied at nautical/aviation school for 6 years, at the same time i built a 35 foot yacht to commercial survey. then i approached a well known yacht to joining as crew as completed theory ocean masters course. so they excepted me as navigator. then when't on to solo sailing my first 10,000 miles on my own yacht (practical experience) to then holding a full qualification. then sat a few more courses and worked as a paid skipper of yachts up to 90 ft then applying for my commercial license . then i built a 47 foot ocean survey yacht and started my "own" business. as i said no pain no gain. just get off your behind is how you make it, not sucking up to someone else.

Don
Click to expand...
Oh dear, of course Don, but let's not forget that compared to to the average person waking on the streets, you are the exceptional genius and no one can simply come close to your level. Of course you are also very modest.

But all your blah blah is completely irrelevant to the subject because if you haven't understood yet, a yacht is not a camera and wedding photography is different from sailing and requires different skills, different approach and diffetent training.

Working as a second shooter for weddings is a very important part of this training and practicing and there are no shortcuts. only stupid photographers would skip that part. So actually, there was a very good treason or the photographer bin your OP to enquirer about that.

Moti
Click to expand...
I really don't know what world some who post on this forum live in. The reality is there are some truly exceptional people in this world, many more than most might think. And I take Don at his word until I find out otherwise.
Click to expand...
I don't know either but as far as I'm concerned, I am a wedding photographer with about 250 weddings behind my back so trust me that I am very familiar with the subject and I am talking out of knowledge and experience.
Moti said:
The worlds information is at a person's fingertips these days thanks to Google, its property YouTube, and the Internet.

People don't bow to some old world order anymore. If you want it, get off your ass, and go for it.
Click to expand...
Oh I did it. How do you think I became a wedding photographer?
Moti said:
If you want to be a wedding photographer, or many other things for that matter, commit yourself to watch a month's worth of YouTube, 40 hours a week, and in a month your ready.
Click to expand...
that is like suggesting to to learn to become a sergeant by watching YouTube.
Moti said:
Chances are you'll do OK if you are conservative on what you accept for your first gig.

And if you fail, learn from it and do better the next time. The world will not end and the sun will come up again tomorrow.
Click to expand...
you are not allowed to do mistakes in this field otherwise the world may end for you and the next sun you see might be through a jail window.
Moti said:
If you have the courage to reach for the brass ring chances are you'll be successful. I've lived my life this way and I'm a long way from exceptional. But I believe in myself and I keep a positive frame of mind at all times. I shut the door on naysayers whenever they pop up but YMMV.
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Moti
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I respect your knowledge and experience but that was your journey. In my experience people do extraordinary things because they believe in themselves and charge forward, are agile and make adjustments as they go, and don't let negative thoughts enter their mind.

If I wanted to say you could be a surgeon I would have said it so those are your words IMO an attempt by you to toss out a red herring (facts not in evidence).

A wedding is process that creates a series of mostly group portraits, often driven by a checklist you can find on YouTube agreed to with the bride and groom to build a shooting schedule. I have this experience gained through multiple marriages. Believe me on this one and I have the canceled checks to prove it. :-)

If you are good at shooting group portraits with variable lighting conditions you have a good chance for technical success.

There is a lot more related to details which I'm purposely glossing over due to trying to keep it brief but that information is readily available on YouTube and other internet sites.

It is my opinion if you are good at project management and client relations with a reasonable technical foundation in shooting group portraits in variable lighting conditions you got a shot at success if you stay conservative in what you accept so the engagement is in line with your technical skills when given the opportunity.

I'm in no way discounting the effort it may have taken some to be successful in wedding photography. There are some really talented wedding photographers. You are probably one of them. You and they deserve whatever people are willing to pay them.

But everyone of them had to shoot their first wedding. Within that distribution I bet you we'll find some, at least one anyway, who avoided starting as a second shooter and just went for it.

My life experience has proven to me there is more than one way to a destination. I expect withing the wedding photographer universe people got there in all different ways

People can do great things. Some have to struggle and pay their dues. Others just seem to waltz right in and knock a home run the first time at the plate. The world is not fair!:-)
 
Donald B said:
Aaron801 said:
I don't really see a problem with that. At least this person doesn't have a shingle out offering wedding photography not ever having been a second shooter first. Generally to do anything really well takes some amount of experience, but how do you get that experience? Seems like being a second shooter would be the obvious way for wedding photography. If the thing is structured so that the 2nd shooter is doing the less challenging shots, if that person is a pretty good photographer already and if they're a pretty quick learner, it could work out very well, right?
Click to expand...
sorry dont agree, when i started out in the yachting world then to become a ships captain. i studied at nautical/aviation school for 6 years, at the same time i built a 35 foot yacht to commercial survey. then i approached a well known yacht to joining as crew as completed theory ocean masters course. so they excepted me as navigator. then when't on to solo sailing my first 10,000 miles on my own yacht (practical experience) to then holding a full qualification. then sat a few more courses and worked as a paid skipper of yachts up to 90 ft then applying for my commercial license . then i built a 47 foot ocean survey yacht and started my "own" business. as i said no pain no gain. just get off your behind is how you make it, not sucking up to someone else.

Don
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Neat.

Not sure that applies to an artistic field, but your dad must have been proud.
 
J A C S said:
p0ppyman said:
If you want to be a wedding photographer, or many other things for that matter, commit yourself to watch a month's worth of YouTube, 40 hours a week, and in a month your ready.
Click to expand...
LOL! :-):-):-) This made my day; a bit too late but it did!
Click to expand...
I'm glad I could add some value to your day with my opinion! :-)

Until you try it like I did you will never really know exactly what you can, or cannot, accomplish as a result of your time investment. Of course you need to be a person who knows how to learn through that medium in all fairness.

People learn in different ways which I accept.
 
p0ppyman said:
DiffractionLtd said:
sybersitizen said:
Donald B said:
Read this on social media and had a laugh.

"Anyone know or is anyone a wedding photographer and needing a 2nd photographer."
Click to expand...
That sounds reasonable. It's a time-honored way to learn something.
Click to expand...
Not that you'd know it. Screeching millenials are now demanding to be paid for internships, even though it's technically just an extension of school. Entitled little brats.
Click to expand...
If companies did not find value in offering internships they would not offer them, so they pay interns. Interns often bring fresh ideas to companies, spread the word about a company's brand to their peers, and both are worth paying for.

You got to get a grip and understand the old world order has been knocked down and replaced by the new order. You don't have to like it, but it is the reality.

Companies only do what is in their interest or the interest of their shareholders. These days it's in their interest to pay interns.

There are no free lunches anymore in particular for the companies of the olden days and yesteryear. Most of them are gone anyway.
Click to expand...
Some companies like Apple, etc., roll in money and can afford to pay "twice the min wage" or whatever for interns. But some intern positions aren't compensated. Like you say, if you don't like it, or they don' t like it, they can go elsewhere.
 
DiffractionLtd said:
sybersitizen said:
Donald B said:
Read this on social media and had a laugh.

"Anyone know or is anyone a wedding photographer and needing a 2nd photographer."
Click to expand...
That sounds reasonable. It's a time-honored way to learn something.
Click to expand...
Not that you'd know it. Screeching millenials are now demanding to be paid for internships, even though it's technically just an extension of school. Entitled little brats.
Click to expand...
I know one particular company that runs on internships, 25 'employees' and 20 of them are unpaid interns, not a bad business model if you don't have a conscience.
 
donmarse said:
I live in a dirt poor section of the USA, where lots of people start a wedding photography business with a few hundred dollars invested or someone gave them a used camera. If they have the social skills it takes to do weddings they can learn the photography skills as they go along.
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Really? would you like someone 'learning their photography skills' to do your wedding?

How about someone learning how to do roofing working on your roof?

Or learning how to be a mechanic fixing your brakes?

You should learn how to do something prior to charging for it.......
 
Tuonov2 said:
DiffractionLtd said:
sybersitizen said:
Donald B said:
Read this on social media and had a laugh.

"Anyone know or is anyone a wedding photographer and needing a 2nd photographer."
Click to expand...
That sounds reasonable. It's a time-honored way to learn something.
Click to expand...
Not that you'd know it. Screeching millenials are now demanding to be paid for internships, even though it's technically just an extension of school. Entitled little brats.
Click to expand...
I know one particular company that runs on internships, 25 'employees' and 20 of them are unpaid interns, not a bad business model if you don't have a conscience.
Click to expand...
Have to know more about the situation but I'd say it's unsustainable, unless they had something really exceptional to offer the unpaid.
 
Tuonov2 said:
donmarse said:
I live in a dirt poor section of the USA, where lots of people start a wedding photography business with a few hundred dollars invested or someone gave them a used camera. If they have the social skills it takes to do weddings they can learn the photography skills as they go along.
Click to expand...
Really? would you like someone 'learning their photography skills' to do your wedding?

How about someone learning how to do roofing working on your roof?

Or learning how to be a mechanic fixing your brakes?

You should learn how to do something prior to charging for it.......
Click to expand...
I totally agree. at the least completed a course and supervised.

Don
 
p0ppyman said:
J A C S said:
p0ppyman said:
If you want to be a wedding photographer, or many other things for that matter, commit yourself to watch a month's worth of YouTube, 40 hours a week, and in a month your ready.
Click to expand...
LOL! :-):-):-) This made my day; a bit too late but it did!
Click to expand...
I'm glad I could add some value to your day with my opinion! :-)

Until you try it like I did you will never really know exactly what you can, or cannot, accomplish as a result of your time investment. Of course you need to be a person who knows how to learn through that medium in all fairness.

People learn in different ways which I accept.
Click to expand...
Utube is a wonderful thing, I have learnt motor machenics through watching them and saved a fortune. I love stripping down my landrover and have a great workshop as well.

Don
 
DiffractionLtd said:
Tuonov2 said:
DiffractionLtd said:
sybersitizen said:
Donald B said:
Read this on social media and had a laugh.

"Anyone know or is anyone a wedding photographer and needing a 2nd photographer."
Click to expand...
That sounds reasonable. It's a time-honored way to learn something.
Click to expand...
Not that you'd know it. Screeching millenials are now demanding to be paid for internships, even though it's technically just an extension of school. Entitled little brats.
Click to expand...
I know one particular company that runs on internships, 25 'employees' and 20 of them are unpaid interns, not a bad business model if you don't have a conscience.
Click to expand...
Have to know more about the situation but I'd say it's unsustainable, unless they had something really exceptional to offer the unpaid.
Click to expand...
They've 'sustained it' for 20 yrs, they offer 'experience'. they have a steady procession of interns pushed through from local universities(not that anyone at the uni gets any kickbacks, honest) they usually stay 3-4 months. My daughter worked there for a week.....
 
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