What is so good about the F828?

Matthew Cromer · Sep 28, 2003

dieselnyc said:
The problem I'm having is that if Sony wanted to make a big leap up
they should have improved the zoom. At least on my 717 I can add a
tele-converter to get up to 323mm w/ TCON-17(~$100) and 380mm w/
Sony 2x lens (~$175).

The 828 does not have the ability to add on lens or filters.

What is the 58mm lens thread for then?

It's for adding filters.

Add-on lenses will screw on as well, although Sony does not recommend it.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

dieselnyc · Sep 28, 2003

I did not know that the 828 had threads. If it does, I stand corrected, but that's was not my major gripe was anyway.

Matthew Cromer said:
dieselnyc said:

The problem I'm having is that if Sony wanted to make a big leap up
they should have improved the zoom. At least on my 717 I can add a
tele-converter to get up to 323mm w/ TCON-17(~$100) and 380mm w/
Sony 2x lens (~$175).

The 828 does not have the ability to add on lens or filters.

Click to expand...

What is the 58mm lens thread for then?

It's for adding filters.

Add-on lenses will screw on as well, although Sony does not
recommend it.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

Bobby Tan · Sep 28, 2003

dieselnyc said:
The problem I'm having is that if Sony wanted to make a big leap up
they should have improved the zoom. At least on my 717 I can add a
tele-converter to get up to 323mm w/ TCON-17(~$100) and 380mm w/
Sony 2x lens (~$175).

The 828 does not have the ability to add on lens or filters.

Why not? Just because someone mentioned that it will not offer wide-angle and telephoto lens attachments? You should be able to use the same attachments to screw onto the new F828. I don't see how this will hurt the F828, as you will be supporting the lens with the palm of your hand, or mount it on a tripod. The lens attachments are not all that heavy. When not in use, I will take it off - rather than leave it on, and carrying the whole rig by it's shoulder strap.

Anybody know the reason why the lens attachments are not recommended for the F828?

Jamie154594 · Sep 28, 2003

Bakman_29 said:
Shallow DOF capability with beautiful bokeh ?

You mean like this?

Next two samples same subject different focal point...

Bakman_29 said:
Bleeding or purple fringing ? I don't want it, do you ?

http://ittrad.pointclark.net/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Garden2003&id=DSC02522

Bakman_29 said:
Ofcourse, people will say : I have printed the images and I don't
see the purple fringing.....well let me wake you up, it is there,
but your printer is not good enough to print the details.

So does it really matter to that user then?

Jamie

butachan · Sep 28, 2003

Bobby Tan said:
If the Zeiss lenses for Sony are coming out from the same plant
that does the Zeiss lenses for their 35mm and medium format
Contaxes, there is no reason to think that it would be a dog.
There is also a good reason why the earlier F-series lenses are not
T* coated, as they were probably less expensive with less coating.
It is therefore logical to assume that the T* coated lens will be
better than the non T* coated lenses of earlier models.

Do you know where the "Sony Zeiss" lenses are manufactured?
This subject has been discussed many times.

Bobby Tan said:
For that matter, all digital images are not completely noiseless.

Yes, noise levels don't matter because all digital cameras create noise.

Bobby Tan said:
Quite. My point was that if they don't think cramming 8 million
pixels in a tiny sensor is a good thing, they would stick to 5
million pixels.

Look at it from a business/marketing point of view. It's called keeping up with your competitors.

Bobby Tan said:
I was actually referring to the manual exposure. I believe the
300D has no manual focus or manual override for exposure - it's
strictly auto.

Interesting... There is a full review of the 300D on this very site. You obviously didn't read it but yet you claim that there is no manual exposure or manual focus mode. Why?

Bobby Tan said:
I didn't make myself clear. I merely meant that the images we have
seen so far may not be as good as the D-SLRs, but I am confident
that actual tests with production cameras will show that the gap is
actually much narrower than we think.

You seem optimistic that the 828 will have a significantly better picture quality and much lower noise than a 7x7. If that is true, Sony certainly deserves a lot of credit.

--
'There is no conversation more boring than the one where everybody agrees.'

Agent · Sep 28, 2003

Bobby Tan said:
Bobby Tan said:

They aren't bad, but they're far from clean and noiseless.

Click to expand...

For that matter, all digital images are not completely noiseless.

I don't know but to me it seems you are searching for a reply and counterargument for everything someone says in response to you, even if what you have to say doesn’t make sense. Hence I see this is the essence of much of your entire post. You are finding things to say but many of these things are insignificant or flat out untrue. You should really do your research before you start bashing other cameras in favor of your bias.

Bobby Tan said:
I would rather do these things then buy super-expensive fast lenses.

Sorry to break the news but you can get Shallow DOF with the kit lens, which is neither super expensive nor fast). And if you need more light there is the very highly rated 50mm f1.8 ($60) which will give you tremendous DOF.

Jamie154594 · Sep 29, 2003

Jamie said:
Bakman_29 said:

Shallow DOF capability with beautiful bokeh ?

Click to expand...

You mean like this?

Next two samples same subject different focal point...

Jamie154594 said:

Bleeding or purple fringing ? I don't want it, do you ?

http://ittrad.pointclark.net/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Garden2003&id=DSC02522

Click to expand...

Jamie154594 said:

Ofcourse, people will say : I have printed the images and I don't
see the purple fringing.....well let me wake you up, it is there,
but your printer is not good enough to print the details.

Click to expand...

So does it really matter to that user then?

Jamie

Hans vdC · Sep 29, 2003

great point, and one that I'm considering myself now. Still deciding, but the price of the F717 + addon lenses + flash = F828 or A1 or 300D, so maybe I should go for the F717

Ron Parr · Sep 29, 2003

Bobby Tan said:
If the Zeiss lenses for Sony are coming out from the same plant
that does the Zeiss lenses for their 35mm and medium format
Contaxes, there is no reason to think that it would be a dog.
There is also a good reason why the earlier F-series lenses are not
T* coated, as they were probably less expensive with less coating.
It is therefore logical to assume that the T* coated lens will be
better than the non T* coated lenses of earlier models.

Are they coming form the same plant? That would be interesting.

I've never seen a 7X zoom w/o very noticeable CA at the long end, so it will be interesting to see what they can accomplish.

Bobby Tan said:
Bobby Tan said:

It's not entirely clear what you're saying here, but there are no
restrictions on zooming and focusing with the 300D, if that's what
you meant to imply.

Click to expand...

I was actually referring to the manual exposure. I believe the
300D has no manual focus or manual override for exposure - it's
strictly auto.

That's incorrect.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

Hans vdC · Sep 29, 2003

the Minolta Dimage A1 does 7x zoom without any noticeable CA (so I'm told)

Ron Parr said:
Bobby Tan said:

If the Zeiss lenses for Sony are coming out from the same plant
that does the Zeiss lenses for their 35mm and medium format
Contaxes, there is no reason to think that it would be a dog.
There is also a good reason why the earlier F-series lenses are not
T* coated, as they were probably less expensive with less coating.
It is therefore logical to assume that the T* coated lens will be
better than the non T* coated lenses of earlier models.

Click to expand...

Are they coming form the same plant? That would be interesting.

I've never seen a 7X zoom w/o very noticeable CA at the long end,
so it will be interesting to see what they can accomplish.

Member said:

Member said:

It's not entirely clear what you're saying here, but there are no
restrictions on zooming and focusing with the 300D, if that's what
you meant to imply.

Click to expand...

I was actually referring to the manual exposure. I believe the
300D has no manual focus or manual override for exposure - it's
strictly auto.

Click to expand...

That's incorrect.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

f1.2 · Sep 29, 2003

i still think too many people assume we all need the 28-200mm lens for telephoto. i for one do not want this lens for the telephoto part but for the wide angle part, and we all know how expensive it is to use wide angle with dslrs. most people cant afford full fram dslrs or extremely expensive super wides that have apertures much slower than f2.0 that the sony offers.

Hans vdC · Sep 29, 2003

which is why I consider the Dimage A1 too, since it's also a 28-200mm lens (but with f2.8 at wide angle)

f1.2 said:
i still think too many people assume we all need the 28-200mm lens
for telephoto. i for one do not want this lens for the telephoto
part but for the wide angle part, and we all know how expensive it
is to use wide angle with dslrs. most people cant afford full fram
dslrs or extremely expensive super wides that have apertures much
slower than f2.0 that the sony offers.

snooter · Sep 29, 2003

Bobby Tan said:
The
image quality coming out of this camera is no less than maybe 70%
of a D-SLR with an APS-size or even full-frame sensor ... and it's
looking increasingly likely that it will be closer to 90%.

That paragraph reminds of two statistics jokes:

89.35% of all statistics quoted to prove a point are made up on the spot.

87.16625305387965463452985735% of all statistics claim a precision of results that is not justified by the method employed.

Bakman_29 · Sep 29, 2003

Matthew, purple fringing and CA are 2 different things.

Purple fringing you will only see with digital camera, CA can appear due to lens distortion. So what you are referring to is CA, not purple fringing. CA will accuentuate purple fringing even more.

It does not only appears in the corners but all over the image, due to the limitation of photosites.

BaKMaN

Matthew Cromer said:
Matthew Cromer said:

Bleeding or purple fringing ? I don't want it, do you ?

Click to expand...

I was just looking at some 1Ds samples with the acclaimed 28-70L
$1300 lens and comparing to the 828 samples I have.

Both cameras showed a similar degree of purple fringing at the
corners.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

--

http://www.digitallyactive.com

Bakman_29 · Sep 29, 2003

I don't see any bokeh and furthermore ONLY macro shots will deliver you shallow DOF, now try a portrait from 3 feet distance....

BaKMaN

Jamie said:
Bakman_29 said:

Shallow DOF capability with beautiful bokeh ?

Click to expand...

You mean like this?

Next two samples same subject different focal point...

Jamie154594 said:

Bleeding or purple fringing ? I don't want it, do you ?

http://ittrad.pointclark.net/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Garden2003&id=DSC02522

Click to expand...

Jamie154594 said:

Ofcourse, people will say : I have printed the images and I don't
see the purple fringing.....well let me wake you up, it is there,
but your printer is not good enough to print the details.

Click to expand...

So does it really matter to that user then?

Jamie

--

http://www.digitallyactive.com

Bakman_29 · Sep 29, 2003

Bobby Tan said:
I meant "between" your subject and background.

Anyway, if you are shooting lanscapes/scenics, architetural
subjects, macro and closeup, you WANT more DOF, and that has been
the deficiency with with SLRs.

Unfortunately, your macro setting is not actual macro (e.g. 1:1) and contains lens distortion, were a dedicated macro lens has been correct in such a way that the distortion has been brought down to almost zero (there is no lens on this planet without distortion.)

Bobby Tan said:
Besides, I didn't say that the F828 is perfect, and is a camera for
everyone. It's horses for courses. Be as happy with your D-SLR,
as I know I will be happy with the F828.

Agreed.

BaKMaN
--

http://www.digitallyactive.com

Jean-Sebastien Morisset · Sep 29, 2003

Unless the F828 has "flash biasing", I'm not going to upgrade. Since a good portion of my pictures are underwater, I need a way to tell the camera to use less available light, and more flash. Right now I have to use my F717 in manual mode. When I upgrade (next year), I'll probably look at the 10D's successor.

LateR!
js.
--

DSC-F717, 54MZ-3, SCA-3602-M, SCA-3008-A, VCL-MHG07A, MCON-35, TCON-14b, Hoya IR/UV/ND2-8, Velbon EFL-3A, Kirk BH-3, Ikelite DSC-F717 Housing w/ DS-125, Two DSC-P5s, MPK-P5 w/ Ikelite DS-50, Sea&Sea 20MM and 3T Conv Lenses, 20GB Sima Image Bank

Bobby Tan · Sep 29, 2003

Hans von der Crone said:
great point, and one that I'm considering myself now. Still
deciding, but the price of the F717 + addon lenses + flash = F828
or A1 or 300D, so maybe I should go for the F717

Good decision. If you don't need all the bells and whistles on the F828, why pay for it? I am upgrading from a F707, which is a bigger jump. Besides, I love the 28mm wide angle and F2 speed for indoor work.

If you can wait a bit longer i.e. until the F828 is released, I think the price of the F717 may drop even further, and that would make it even more attractive.

I need to sell my F707, and I know that the price will drop further if I wait until the F828 comes out, but who knows when it's going to come out, so I have no choice but to hang on my F707.

Bobby Tan · Sep 29, 2003

f1.2 said:
i still think too many people assume we all need the 28-200mm lens
for telephoto. i for one do not want this lens for the telephoto
part but for the wide angle part, and we all know how expensive it
is to use wide angle with dslrs. most people cant afford full fram
dslrs or extremely expensive super wides that have apertures much
slower than f2.0 that the sony offers.

We do assume that MOST people want as wide a zoom range as possible, and that is why we envy dSLR owners, as they can have from fisheye to a super telephoto, albeit at a price. We want to have our cake and eat it too, and the F828 comes closest to this dream i.e. we get some of the best dSLR features and the best of the prosumer camera ... for the price of an entry-level dSLR.

Of course, pundits will still disagree that "everybody wants to have the cake and eat it too" and they would rather have the entry-level dSLR than a sophisticated prosumer or crossover camera, and that's fine, as we are not here to debate on what camera is good for everybody - as no such camera exist.

We are here just to extol on the pros and cons of the F828 i.e. what is good about it, and whether it's worth the RRP. Not everybody will agree that the F828 is worth $1,200 and some will not even pay $600 for it. I mean, if you need the flexibility of an interchangeable lens system, you shouldn't even be looking at this forum as, surprise, surprise, Sony does not make dSLR cameras.

Sorry, I digress and got a little carried away and I apologise.

Hans vdC · Sep 29, 2003

after careful consideration, I decided to get the Minolta Dimage A1. mainly because I love the anti-shake feature and the way it's held (like an SLR). I sure hope the camera won't be a disappointment, but I'm also sure the camera will hold up quite well to the F828 (although the Sony will no doubt be a great cam too)

Bobby Tan said:
Hans von der Crone said:

great point, and one that I'm considering myself now. Still
deciding, but the price of the F717 + addon lenses + flash = F828
or A1 or 300D, so maybe I should go for the F717

Click to expand...

Good decision. If you don't need all the bells and whistles on the
F828, why pay for it? I am upgrading from a F707, which is a
bigger jump. Besides, I love the 28mm wide angle and F2 speed for
indoor work.

If you can wait a bit longer i.e. until the F828 is released, I
think the price of the F717 may drop even further, and that would
make it even more attractive.

I need to sell my F707, and I know that the price will drop further
if I wait until the F828 comes out, but who knows when it's going
to come out, so I have no choice but to hang on my F707.

What is so good about the F828?

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