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MACBOOK Pro: feature or drawback

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graybalanced said:
The ultimate sealed devices are smartphones and tablets.
Click to expand...
How about CPUs? 4th-generation Haswell CPU chips had about 1.4 billion transistors, and that was four CPU generations ago. That is about one transistor for everybody in China – all "glued" to a semiconductor wafer and "sealed" into a plastic package.

You could service some early CPUs, like the one in the room-sized ENIAC. It had about 18,000 vacuum tubes, whose "reliability" must surely have kept users busy.

On the Mark II, opening the computer revealed a trapped moth, leading Grace Murray Hopper to note "First actual case of bug being found." Much more recently, there were photos on the Internet showing mouse/rat nests and crazy ant infestations inside PCs. These invaders could only get inside the computer's outer case; they had no way to get into the CPUs.
 
Tom_N said:
graybalanced said:
The ultimate sealed devices are smartphones and tablets.
Click to expand...
How about CPUs? 4th-generation Haswell CPU chips had about 1.4 billion transistors, and that was four CPU generations ago. That is about one transistor for everybody in China – all "glued" to a semiconductor wafer and "sealed" into a plastic package.

You could service some early CPUs, like the one in the room-sized ENIAC. It had about 18,000 vacuum tubes, whose "reliability" must surely have kept users busy.

On the Mark II, opening the computer revealed a trapped moth, leading Grace Murray Hopper to note "First actual case of bug being found." Much more recently, there were photos on the Internet showing mouse/rat nests and crazy ant infestations inside PCs. These invaders could only get inside the computer's outer case; they had no way to get into the CPUs.
Click to expand...
It is interesting and useful to look at the quickly changing technology in the last, say, 55 years that ordinary blokes like us now have access to. A lot to do with absurdly cheap prices of things now which were hundreds of thousands in price or simply non-existent. The speed of change is quickly outpacing our comfort level. I first became aware of this rather sci fi change when our kitchen housed a 'micro wave oven'. It did not seem like a normal device. But keeping up with the changes, Apple should offer a bit more than a three year guarantee on products. If their products are built not to be upgraded and built not to fail, then basic repairs and upgrades should be in the contract. Are these things just coming from complainers or are these things something that planners at Apple should be considering? I suspect that - a theory- that not being able to go to third party vendors will prevent 'designed' chips to be included in third party 'upgrades' that include security comprised hacks to be prevalent. Security is a rather important issue these days. Recommend a film called zero day.
 
Last edited:
robgendreau said:
IR1234 said:
I’m really not sure what t2 has to do with locking out general repairs. It could well lock out something like touchID sensors, but for general repairs I’m not seeing it.

If a resistor or capacitor needed replacing, how would the t2 chip even detect that a new one was installed? It can’t. If you have a voltage regulator thats gone, nope, not seeing it. If you have a connector to a chip gone bad or an interface connector that needs reseating, again, how is the t2 chip picking these things up, a track messed up that needs a jump wire? It can’t see any of these things.

So i’m not seeing what the end of the world screaming is all about.
Click to expand...
Here's how the T2 along with the new for Apple repair vs third party works, if you're interested: https://9to5mac.com/2018/11/12/apple-t2-third-party-repairs/

Whether their policy will change or there will be work arounds, dunno.
Click to expand...
Well, I did read the Apple document that your link posted, and again, I'm not sure how this is affecting many of the board level repairs, eg tracks that have become damaged, bad resistors etc. The t2 seems to concern itself with components who are supplying a key to ensure they haven't been modified.
 
deednets said:
So Windows is a catastrophe in history??
Click to expand...
Yes
deednets said:
When was the last time you actually used one??
Click to expand...
I don't care. No interest in changing.
deednets said:
No idea where your somewhat antiquated Windows hate comes from, you are not by any chance one of those who writes Micro$oft?? As if MS was the greedy party in all this ;-)
Click to expand...
Many of have used Windows from 95 through to the point when we bailed.

Every version according to the zealots were wonderful and we were told we are the stupid ones when it goes wrong. We spent days (not hours) with previous versions of Windows fixing them and generally maintaining them as they really weren't that reliable.

Windows itself changed it's UI how many times? Not gradual changes, but big whole scale changes - "where has the xxxx feature gone?". Remember the Start menu on Windows 8?

There comes a point where many of us (not all) got sick and tired of MS screwing around with Windows at considerable expense to our time, so we bought a Mac. For the most part, a machine that just works for most of us.

So the "antiquated Windows hate" comes from considerable experience in being fooled by MS year after year, OS after OS, that they had come up with something wonderful, when they really hadn't.

I am sure that Windows 10 is wonderful. Just like Windows 8. Just like Vista. But there comes a time when enough is enough.
 
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William Carson said:
The speed of change is quickly outpacing our comfort level. I first became aware of this rather sci fi change when our kitchen housed a 'micro wave oven'. It did not seem like a normal device.
Click to expand...
Speaking of 'not a normal device' … I see that the taxi in the driveway does not appear to have a human driver. Must be one of those self-driving cars that corporations have been testing on public roads. This car hails from the King Taxi Company.

There's a name on the side of the car: Christine.

Think it would be a good idea to get in?

:-P
 
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
So Windows is a catastrophe in history??
Click to expand...
Yes
IR1234 said:
When was the last time you actually used one??
Click to expand...
I don't care. No interest in changing.
IR1234 said:
No idea where your somewhat antiquated Windows hate comes from, you are not by any chance one of those who writes Micro$oft?? As if MS was the greedy party in all this ;-)
Click to expand...
Many of have used Windows from 95 through to the point when we bailed.

Every version according to the zealots were wonderful and we were told we are the stupid ones when it goes wrong. We spent days (not hours) with previous versions of Windows fixing them and generally maintaining them as they really weren't that reliable.

Windows itself changed it's UI how many times? Not gradual changes, but big whole scale changes - "where has the xxxx feature gone?". Remember the Start menu on Windows 8?

There comes a point where many of us (not all) got sick and tired of MS screwing around with Windows at considerable expense to our time, so we bought a Mac. For the most part, a machine that just works for most of us.

So the "antiquated Windows hate" comes from considerable experience in being fooled by MS year after year, OS after OS, that they had come up with something wonderful, when they really hadn't.

I am sure that Windows 10 is wonderful. Just like Windows 8. Just like Vista. But there comes a time when enough is enough.
Click to expand...
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??

Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above). Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.

Deed

MAC works for many people but not for everyone.
 
deednets said:
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??
Click to expand...
The interface over generations of OSX has evolved. If you update (for free) to the latest OSX then the changing interface is gradual. Not so much Windows.
deednets said:
Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
deednets said:
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
deednets said:
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
Click to expand...
Apple have always aggressively obsoleted kit. There is nothing new to see here. The fact that people with 8-10 year old laptops have suddenly found their kit unsupported is a testament to how good Apple kit is.

And please don't play this butter wouldn't melt act, remember how everything ran as a dog on Vista? It wasn't that your old PC wasn't compatible, it was that the PC became so slow as to be unusable.
deednets said:
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above).
Click to expand...
Vista was a pig. Even Bill Gates admitted it.
deednets said:
Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Start button missing? Don't you remember Metro? That's more than buttons changing color, that's a wholescale re-invisioning of an entire experience.

Even if you consider Windows to be much improved, why exactly is it that I can plug in a $1500 color printer and the Mac is printing almost immediately, whereas Windows 10 still needs a bunch of software installed?
 
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??
Click to expand...
The interface over generations of OSX has evolved. If you update (for free) to the latest OSX then the changing interface is gradual. Not so much Windows.
IR1234 said:
Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
IR1234 said:
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
IR1234 said:
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
Click to expand...
Apple have always aggressively obsoleted kit. There is nothing new to see here. The fact that people with 8-10 year old laptops have suddenly found their kit unsupported is a testament to how good Apple kit is.

And please don't play this butter wouldn't melt act, remember how everything ran as a dog on Vista? It wasn't that your old PC wasn't compatible, it was that the PC became so slow as to be unusable.
IR1234 said:
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above).
Click to expand...
Vista was a pig. Even Bill Gates admitted it.
IR1234 said:
Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Start button missing? Don't you remember Metro? That's more than buttons changing color, that's a wholescale re-invisioning of an entire experience.

Even if you consider Windows to be much improved, why exactly is it that I can plug in a $1500 color printer and the Mac is printing almost immediately, whereas Windows 10 still needs a bunch of software installed?
Click to expand...
Beta tells you that you can’t use certain software anymore. Fantastic for the average user like yoursef who uses Beta OS.

Office 97 still works on Windows 10 so some pros and cons at either end. Not for you the typical “APPLE is just great” user. I use both and can often see a complete lack of any critical view when it comes to all things APPLE.

Software no longer compatible is rarely ever being sold as “great” like you tried above.

It’s NOT great, doesn’t work for everyone and for a substantial number of users, stopping software not a cause for celebration. I make money that way so not complaining.

Speaking of which: the migration of iPhoto to Photo wasn’t always that smooth either. A job I no longer even want to discuss with customers is the question why they can see some, but not all, of their iCloud photos on some, but not all devices ...

Windows now and again has issues after some upgrades, stays black. Major issues there, but I wouldn’t want to glorify that like you do regarding their shortcomings.

I just found out that my MBP 2016 ssd is faulty, major recall. No big deal for me, BUT (big but) I had tested the drive and it came p faulty and APPLE wanted me to use disk utility. If the drive passed it, the drive was good. Now a recall.

Also fantastic I guess?

Better leave it at that.

Deed
 
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??
Click to expand...
The interface over generations of OSX has evolved. If you update (for free) to the latest OSX then the changing interface is gradual. Not so much Windows.
deednets said:
Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
deednets said:
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
deednets said:
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
Click to expand...
Apple have always aggressively obsoleted kit. There is nothing new to see here. The fact that people with 8-10 year old laptops have suddenly found their kit unsupported is a testament to how good Apple kit is.

And please don't play this butter wouldn't melt act, remember how everything ran as a dog on Vista? It wasn't that your old PC wasn't compatible, it was that the PC became so slow as to be unusable.
deednets said:
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above).
Click to expand...
Vista was a pig. Even Bill Gates admitted it.
deednets said:
Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Start button missing? Don't you remember Metro? That's more than buttons changing color, that's a wholescale re-invisioning of an entire experience.

Even if you consider Windows to be much improved, why exactly is it that I can plug in a $1500 color printer and the Mac is printing almost immediately, whereas Windows 10 still needs a bunch of software installed?
Click to expand...
Beta tells you that you can’t use certain software anymore. Fantastic for the average user like yoursef who uses Beta OS.
Click to expand...
Oh please. All developers are part of the developer program at Apple, they have all the documentation to ensure that the next release of OS does not break their software. OSX is well documented and any developer that is taken by surprise by an incompatibility is on them, not Apple. There is no excuse for software to break on an OSX upgrade.

If you don't know about the Apple developer program, you just need to stop with this charade that you know what you're talking about.
 
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??
Click to expand...
The interface over generations of OSX has evolved. If you update (for free) to the latest OSX then the changing interface is gradual. Not so much Windows.
IR1234 said:
Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
IR1234 said:
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
IR1234 said:
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
Click to expand...
Apple have always aggressively obsoleted kit. There is nothing new to see here. The fact that people with 8-10 year old laptops have suddenly found their kit unsupported is a testament to how good Apple kit is.

And please don't play this butter wouldn't melt act, remember how everything ran as a dog on Vista? It wasn't that your old PC wasn't compatible, it was that the PC became so slow as to be unusable.
IR1234 said:
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above).
Click to expand...
Vista was a pig. Even Bill Gates admitted it.
IR1234 said:
Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Start button missing? Don't you remember Metro? That's more than buttons changing color, that's a wholescale re-invisioning of an entire experience.

Even if you consider Windows to be much improved, why exactly is it that I can plug in a $1500 color printer and the Mac is printing almost immediately, whereas Windows 10 still needs a bunch of software installed?
Click to expand...
Beta tells you that you can’t use certain software anymore. Fantastic for the average user like yoursef who uses Beta OS.
Click to expand...
Oh please. All developers are part of the developer program at Apple, they have all the documentation to ensure that the next release of OS does not break their software. OSX is well documented and any developer that is taken by surprise by an incompatibility is on them, not Apple. There is no excuse for software to break on an OSX upgrade.

If you don't know about the Apple developer program, you just need to stop with this charade that you know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
So the average APPLE user needs to be a developer now? Or just go with the flow and upgrade all software in question.

The last “issue” I worked on was when a company didn’t consult their software developers first (filemaker) to find out whether there were incompatibilities, silly users in your world, right? They had to skip a few versions, load a different database access model where every client now needed its own license, VERY different from what they used before. A few thousand dollars extra and all was sorted.

Your model customer could have avoided all this, right?

You seem to be so taken with APPLE always consult the developers first before you upgrade AND possibly have the money to do so.

Good for you but hardly how the rest of the world ticks.

Deed
 
deednets said:
The latest Macbooks I believe have soldered on SSDs and also RAM. My partner's Macbook Air packed up some time last year because the diagnostics said "faulty memory".

APPLE confirmed that and said the MAC was 4 years old so time to move on ... I wanted to get an exemption for the MAC as I found that RAM should not require you to replace a complete MAC. The answer was that if you want cutting edge technology, then you have to stay "current".

She replaced the MAC with another Macbook Air but wasn't happy.

When I tried to uplift the data from a PCI-E SSD in a 2016 Macbook Pro a couple of weeks ago I was successful in the end as I used an identical Macbook pro to get the data off. Some well meaning people told me how to deal with issues like these (backup before the case) but since a true Time machine wasn't available at the time all that was left was a second MBP.

Coming to my question here: I believe the SSDs are all soldered on now making it near impossible to get any data off when a logic board fails. Using a MAC as a dumb terminal with ALL data in some cloud would address this, but not for everyone.

A business customer of mine whose whole family used MACs since their dislike for Windows 98 will no longer be using those MBPs.

2 reasons here:
  • The data and RAM issue as upgradable systems they simply found more compelling.
  • The landfill issue to "recycle" a MAC after (like in the case of my partner) 4 years is hardly record breaking for reliability
Since I use both Windows and MAC, I have no stakes in eiterh system, but find any silly HP with RAM upgradable when prices come down as well as SSD options (M.2) more interesting.

So what's the average MAC user's take on this Solid-State policy??
Click to expand...
Microsoft Surface 'laptops' also have soldered SSDs. As things get thinner that's largely inevitable (take phones and tablets, sure some have microSD card slots, but SSD and RAM is basically always soldered).

As most people are wont to, you also put way too much weight on that single 'four-year' data point you have. Yeah, it sucks if your computer breaks after only four years, but to believe that is typical is a fallacy.

In regard to RAM, I've maxed out the RAM on my Mac laptops for the last ten years at the date of purchase. For none of the motherboards used was there ever the option for it to support more RAM later in life, soldered or removable.
 
deednets said:
So the average APPLE user needs to be a developer now? Or just go with the flow and upgrade all software in question.

The last “issue” I worked on was when a company didn’t consult their software developers first (filemaker) to find out whether there were incompatibilities, silly users in your world, right? They had to skip a few versions, load a different database access model where every client now needed its own license, VERY different from what they used before. A few thousand dollars extra and all was sorted.

Your model customer could have avoided all this, right?

You seem to be so taken with APPLE always consult the developers first before you upgrade AND possibly have the money to do so.

Good for you but hardly how the rest of the world ticks.

Deed
Click to expand...
There has been only a few mac major upgrades that required new hardware/software upgrades. The old processor 6800X chips were abandoned in favor of intell chips long ago. Then, OSX was implemented and the old Mac OS was finally no longer supported again long ago. The latest is the transition to 64-bit abandoning 32-bit applications. That one is a big one for me as certain apps no longer function until I get new hardware. Indesign for one no longer functions with the latest High Sierra upgrade. Adobe has been the real app killer with their subscription model. But it is their loss as I just went over to Affinity design and Affinity Photo and DxO Photo Lab. Better all around. So, which application upgrades are causing a upgrade problem for you? Transitioning out of Adobe to Affinity was like $200. The 2011 MBP still is doing more than fine. A new Mac in a couple of years I figure. The main thing that I see as problematic is the over dependence on cloud-only storage and internet only functionality. If the sateilites/servers go down which could happen, where is all the data ? SSDs and Hard drive storage is also very not archival. Data should be stored in archival DVD/Blu-ray disks for long term storage.
 
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??
Click to expand...
The interface over generations of OSX has evolved. If you update (for free) to the latest OSX then the changing interface is gradual. Not so much Windows.
deednets said:
Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
deednets said:
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
Click to expand...
Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
deednets said:
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
Click to expand...
Apple have always aggressively obsoleted kit. There is nothing new to see here. The fact that people with 8-10 year old laptops have suddenly found their kit unsupported is a testament to how good Apple kit is.

And please don't play this butter wouldn't melt act, remember how everything ran as a dog on Vista? It wasn't that your old PC wasn't compatible, it was that the PC became so slow as to be unusable.
deednets said:
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above).
Click to expand...
Vista was a pig. Even Bill Gates admitted it.
deednets said:
Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Start button missing? Don't you remember Metro? That's more than buttons changing color, that's a wholescale re-invisioning of an entire experience.

Even if you consider Windows to be much improved, why exactly is it that I can plug in a $1500 color printer and the Mac is printing almost immediately, whereas Windows 10 still needs a bunch of software installed?
Click to expand...
Beta tells you that you can’t use certain software anymore. Fantastic for the average user like yoursef who uses Beta OS.
Click to expand...
Oh please. All developers are part of the developer program at Apple, they have all the documentation to ensure that the next release of OS does not break their software. OSX is well documented and any developer that is taken by surprise by an incompatibility is on them, not Apple. There is no excuse for software to break on an OSX upgrade.

If you don't know about the Apple developer program, you just need to stop with this charade that you know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
So the average APPLE user needs to be a developer now? Or just go with the flow and upgrade all software in question.

The last “issue” I worked on was when a company didn’t consult their software developers first (filemaker) to find out whether there were incompatibilities, silly users in your world, right? They had to skip a few versions, load a different database access model where every client now needed its own license, VERY different from what they used before. A few thousand dollars extra and all was sorted.

Your model customer could have avoided all this, right?

You seem to be so taken with APPLE always consult the developers first before you upgrade AND possibly have the money to do so.

Good for you but hardly how the rest of the world ticks.

Deed
Click to expand...
Average user has to be a developer? Do you understand anything?

Your issue was that software for a previous OSX didnt work on a new OSX. This isnt a user issue, this is a developer issue.

Beta software isnt for general customers, it’s for developers to test against and for a select few users who want to be part of the problem to test for general compatibility and who understand that this is beta software and the inherent risks.
 
William Carson said:
There has been only a few mac major upgrades that required new hardware/software upgrades. The old processor 6800X chips were abandoned in favor of intell chips long ago.
Click to expand...
Before Apple moved to Intel CPUs, it moved to PowerPC ones. When Apple moved from 68K to PowerPC, they put a 68K emulator into Mac OS. It didn't emulate floating point instructions (so some applications had to be rewritten), but many applications worked just fine. After a while, the 68K emulation ran faster on the latest PowerPCs than any of the hardware 68Ks had run in the old Macs.
William Carson said:
Then, OSX was implemented and the old Mac OS was finally no longer supported again long ago.
Click to expand...
For a while, there was dual-booting, and a Classic environment. Unfortunately, these used Mac OS 9, and could not run any of the After Dark screensavers, like the Looney Tunes / ACME Home Shopping Channel one.

Who could resist a sales pitch for rocket-powered roller skates (with no steering), or a Coyoatomic Rocket? Or boulders ("Our boulders are older")? Every once in a while, the screensaver would even pop up a sales pitch for aspirin …
 
Tom_N said:
William Carson said:
There has been only a few mac major upgrades that required new hardware/software upgrades. The old processor 6800X chips were abandoned in favor of intell chips long ago.
Click to expand...
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Tom_N said:
Before Apple moved to Intel CPUs, it moved to PowerPC ones. When Apple moved from 68K to PowerPC, they put a 68K emulator into Mac OS. It didn't emulate floating point instructions (so some applications had to be rewritten), but many applications worked just fine. After a while, the 68K emulation ran faster on the latest PowerPCs than any of the hardware 68Ks had run in the old Macs.
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What many people don't know is that the change to PowerPC on the OS was so seamless, there were reports that Microsoft at board level were both worried and impressed that Apple had managed to pull it off. The betting in the industry at the time was that no one could do what they did.

I'm not sure the move from PowerPC to Intel was as impressive as NeXT already allowed for multibinary packages, iirc NeXT compatible software was distributed in Sparc, Intel and 68k (I'm fuzzy on the exact binaries as I'm drawing from memory a long time ago).
 
Tom_N said:
On the Mark II, opening the computer revealed a trapped moth, leading Grace Murray Hopper to note "First actual case of bug being found." Much more recently, there were photos on the Internet showing mouse/rat nests and crazy ant infestations inside PCs. These invaders could only get inside the computer's outer case; they had no way to get into the CPUs.
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Around 5 years ago I had two experiences with tiny ants setting up a colony in an APC Uninterruptible Power Supply under the computer desk in my home office. When I opened up the UPS I found eggs, larvae and, of course, lots of angry ants. I cleaned up the first infestation but six months later the ants were back! (They gain access via small cracks in the oak flooring in my 50s-era ranch house.) One theory is that the ants are attracted to the electrical field generated by the device. Fortunately, we were able to successfully address the problem without resorting to spraying poisons in our house or in the yard. The ants have not returned. . .
 
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IR1234 said:
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
It seems you are a tad overenthused about the pretty buttons in MAC OS, thinking that the user interface hasn't changed much - so this must be a good thing??
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The interface over generations of OSX has evolved. If you update (for free) to the latest OSX then the changing interface is gradual. Not so much Windows.
IR1234 said:
Well, since I work in IT I have had multiple complaints about MAC OS "upgrades" where the buttons stayed but the OS under the hood changed big time, which then led to compatibility problems. Some issues were (and some still are):
  • Compatibility with accounting software where the software wouldn't run anymore on the new OS. Ask MYOB users as to how they solved the problems.
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Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
IR1234 said:
  • Compatibility issues with various Office products where the solution offered was to use Pages instead of Word (would this work for you??) or an upgrade to Office 365 subscription.
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Apple release betas long in advance of OSX updates, any third party software that becomes incompatible is the responsibility of the developer, not Apple.
IR1234 said:
  • New OS no longer compatible with the hardware. (no probs for people who have the means to upgrade every three years when the extended warranty runs out)
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Apple have always aggressively obsoleted kit. There is nothing new to see here. The fact that people with 8-10 year old laptops have suddenly found their kit unsupported is a testament to how good Apple kit is.

And please don't play this butter wouldn't melt act, remember how everything ran as a dog on Vista? It wasn't that your old PC wasn't compatible, it was that the PC became so slow as to be unusable.
IR1234 said:
Windows had 2 versions that were less than clever, Vista and Windows 8. Vista wasn't actually too bad unless you consider a differently coloured start button a major OS change (like you suggest in your text above).
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Vista was a pig. Even Bill Gates admitted it.
IR1234 said:
Windows 8 was just crap imho, but since the starts button and menu only changed once in a dramatic fashion (Windows 8) I would hardly call this whole scale changes. But if the colour of the button irritates you more than incompatibilities then I understand where you are coming from.
Click to expand...
Start button missing? Don't you remember Metro? That's more than buttons changing color, that's a wholescale re-invisioning of an entire experience.

Even if you consider Windows to be much improved, why exactly is it that I can plug in a $1500 color printer and the Mac is printing almost immediately, whereas Windows 10 still needs a bunch of software installed?
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Beta tells you that you can’t use certain software anymore. Fantastic for the average user like yoursef who uses Beta OS.
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Oh please. All developers are part of the developer program at Apple, they have all the documentation to ensure that the next release of OS does not break their software. OSX is well documented and any developer that is taken by surprise by an incompatibility is on them, not Apple. There is no excuse for software to break on an OSX upgrade.

If you don't know about the Apple developer program, you just need to stop with this charade that you know what you're talking about.
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So the average APPLE user needs to be a developer now? Or just go with the flow and upgrade all software in question.

The last “issue” I worked on was when a company didn’t consult their software developers first (filemaker) to find out whether there were incompatibilities, silly users in your world, right? They had to skip a few versions, load a different database access model where every client now needed its own license, VERY different from what they used before. A few thousand dollars extra and all was sorted.

Your model customer could have avoided all this, right?

You seem to be so taken with APPLE always consult the developers first before you upgrade AND possibly have the money to do so.

Good for you but hardly how the rest of the world ticks.

Deed
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Average user has to be a developer? Do you understand anything?

Your issue was that software for a previous OSX didnt work on a new OSX. This isnt a user issue, this is a developer issue.

Beta software isnt for general customers, it’s for developers to test against and for a select few users who want to be part of the problem to test for general compatibility and who understand that this is beta software and the inherent risks.
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I see a misunderstanding: I didn't mean incompatibility forever but the need to upgrade software, occasionally accompanied with hefty expenses on top of the acquisition of new hardware. When I tried to rectify the MYOB issue, it turned out that MYOB's updated software was unstable at the time and the business in question ran a warehouse for cosmetics. They simply followed the update now suggestion migrated their emails and then had to get back to the previous system with the issue of the email containers not being downgradable. The folders were there but no emails ...

A lot of this could have been avoided for sure, but I find that often people, businesses or not, ring AFTER a system falls over and not before. You wouldn't get a plumber in regularly just in case the toilet gets blocked?? Maybe?

I think the fronts here are quite clear, you can't see any faults with the APPLE model and I work in IT and rectify faults in their system ;-) How can that be??

User error??

Deed
 
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
deednets said:
IR1234 said:
Oh please. All developers are part of the developer program at Apple, they have all the documentation to ensure that the next release of OS does not break their software. OSX is well documented and any developer that is taken by surprise by an incompatibility is on them, not Apple. There is no excuse for software to break on an OSX upgrade.

If you don't know about the Apple developer program, you just need to stop with this charade that you know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
So the average APPLE user needs to be a developer now? Or just go with the flow and upgrade all software in question.

The last “issue” I worked on was when a company didn’t consult their software developers first (filemaker) to find out whether there were incompatibilities, silly users in your world, right? They had to skip a few versions, load a different database access model where every client now needed its own license, VERY different from what they used before. A few thousand dollars extra and all was sorted.

Your model customer could have avoided all this, right?

You seem to be so taken with APPLE always consult the developers first before you upgrade AND possibly have the money to do so.

Good for you but hardly how the rest of the world ticks.

Deed
Click to expand...
Average user has to be a developer? Do you understand anything?

Your issue was that software for a previous OSX didnt work on a new OSX. This isnt a user issue, this is a developer issue.

Beta software isnt for general customers, it’s for developers to test against and for a select few users who want to be part of the problem to test for general compatibility and who understand that this is beta software and the inherent risks.
Click to expand...
I see a misunderstanding: I didn't mean incompatibility forever but the need to upgrade software, occasionally accompanied with hefty expenses on top of the acquisition of new hardware. When I tried to rectify the MYOB issue, it turned out that MYOB's updated software was unstable at the time and the business in question ran a warehouse for cosmetics. They simply followed the update now suggestion migrated their emails and then had to get back to the previous system with the issue of the email containers not being downgradable. The folders were there but no emails ...

A lot of this could have been avoided for sure, but I find that often people, businesses or not, ring AFTER a system falls over and not before. You wouldn't get a plumber in regularly just in case the toilet gets blocked?? Maybe?

I think the fronts here are quite clear, you can't see any faults with the APPLE model and I work in IT and rectify faults in their system ;-) How can that be??

User error??

Deed
Click to expand...
This sounds more like a case of MYOB pushing out a new version without sufficient testing. I'm not sure how Apple or Microsoft would be responsible for a software developer not doing the job a developer's customers expect.
 
IR1234 said:
I'm not sure the move from PowerPC to Intel was as impressive as NeXT already allowed for multibinary packages, iirc NeXT compatible software was distributed in Sparc, Intel and 68k (I'm fuzzy on the exact binaries as I'm drawing from memory a long time ago).
Click to expand...
Apple had fat binaries for the PowerPC transition. Those served the same purpose as multi-binary packages (NeXT), or Universal binaries (Intel transition). The trouble with any of these is that they are only as useful as developers' willingness to use them.

In any event, Universal binaries were not the impressive part of the Intel transition. A Universal binary is just a container with several things in it. Rosetta would have been considerably more complex and sophisticated.
 
Tom_N said:
Tom_N wrote:

How about CPUs? 4th-generation Haswell CPU chips had about 1.4 billion transistors, and that was four CPU generations ago. That is about one transistor for everybody in China – all "glued" to a semiconductor wafer and "sealed" into a plastic package.

You could service some early CPUs, like the one in the room-sized ENIAC. It had about 18,000 vacuum tubes, whose "reliability" must surely have kept users busy.
Click to expand...
That's an excellent point. Nobody argues that individual transistors should be replaceable because you have to throw out the whole chip if one is bad.
 
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