Olympus failed the basics with the E M1X

You know what? Deleted expletive the full framers, there are plenty of options for them WHY even consider Olympus? You might as well cry because a subaru wrx doesn't have a V12 engine.
 
You know what? Deleted expletive the full framers, there are plenty of options for them WHY even consider Olympus? You might as well cry because a subaru wrx doesn't have a V12 engine.
But at least it has a pretty cool All-Wheel Drive system and much faster than a Honda Accord, so please don't cry. LOL
 
I don't believe that's possible, and I don't believe they have communicated with anyone who told them that it's "the same sensor". It's most probably a newer sensor.
Why would a newer sensor have the same specs and perform just the same as the old one? Or put it another way, if it's only additional virtue is that it's 'newer', what's the point?
It is totally possible. Many things can be changed with such a minor way that it doesn't get new designation or anything else.
Anything that's changed needs a new 'designation', otherwise stock control goes completely haywire, you don't know which is which. In a well managed production system, if there is some change in manufacturing process for a part, which isn't supposed to affect what the part does, it still needs some change, because it needs to be fully qualified as an acceptable substitute for the original, and it needs to be differentiated when it comes to service and support.
But considering that E-M1 II is their flagship and E-M1X is now its "lost twin" that just got bigger... (or born with different skin tone).
Sure, it's a vaguely warmed over E-M1II in a bigger box. We agree.
So why would eventually Olympus make a new sensor for it, to pay for double different batches and all the support work for it? It is just easier and cheaper to keep using one.
They wouldn't, you agree with me. They talk about a 'new coating', but given how marketing talk goes, that's just as likely on the IR cut filter as on the sensor itself.
 
They would have to acquire access to leading edge IP, like competitive column ADCs, they would have to find a foundry that can do wafer thinning and packaging for large chips to allow BSI, etc, etc.
Check Olympus finance papers about decade ago, they purchased the equipment to do all required.
10 years ago.... do you think it still works?... :-D

That is a long time for this sort of equipment, even if they managed to keep it functional. Let's hope they did some technological upgrades to it. Otherwise it may not be much good towards modern chip design.

I think they may still have plenty of the previous chip generation, either in stock or on committed order. Probably same with EVF parts. That stuff needs to be used somehow, it can't just be written off (well, at least not whilst the division is in the red)... Remember, Olympus not long ago downgraded their sales forecast for this year. They are now making less cameras than originally planned. They also extended their product cycles, I guess that includes components not only camera models.
 
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for bodies up to about 1k EUR/USD.

The more pricey the body gets the more attractive Fuji APSc and FF become.

If size and weight are very, I mean VERY, important to you, you might even spend up to 2k for a M43 body, but more is ridiculous in my eyes.

Exception perhaps is the GH line with it's video capabilities. But I am not interested in that.

Peter
how much more sensor size comparison tripe must be digested here?..

I would not take a FF camera for free... its the size and weight of the system that counts.. and m43 nails it.

APSc has always been "better" but yet, M43 was created, adopted, and grew.
 
As for better sensors, that would require someone to have product meetings with Sony followed by making some kind of deal. Sony (or any one else) has no reason to produce sensors if there no market for them.
Olympus has own sensor design and development capabilities and prototyping laboratories, but they do not have a factory for full sensor series production.

And why they should? When you get cheaper by simply buying someone else to do it for you, question is just about the batches size, batch periods and total production run and that gives you the underline how much it costs to do.
At the moment, Olympus designs (and possibly has manufactured) small specialist sensors for very high cost medical equipment. They have also prototyped some larger sensors. That is, however, a completely different matter from designing a competitive large sensor for mass production.
And yet E-M1 II sensor is their designed, as they have other 4/3" sensors designed and developed with even prototypes.
No sensor used in any production Ft or mFT camera was ever 'Olympus designed'.
They would have to acquire access to leading edge IP, like competitive column ADCs, they would have to find a foundry that can do wafer thinning and packaging for large chips to allow BSI, etc, etc.
Check Olympus finance papers about decade ago, they purchased the equipment to do all required.
BS. For a start, it wouldn't be Olympus that needed and purchased the equipment, it would be the foundry they used. Second, your time scale is up the shoot. Here is a paper from TSMC, one of the major image sensor foundries, detailing their wafer thinning process as a leading edge research topic in 2013.
Unlike Olympus, Nikon actually has a design team that has designed. now, six large high-volume sensors, and they cannot really produce a completely competitive sensor. Their last effort, the D5 sensor, had to give away a whole load of bright light DR to compete on low light performance.
Unlike you, Olympus has already done that kind things.
BS. Olympus has not designed any large, high-volume sensors. (And I never claimed that I had). If you wish to dispute that, please identify just one large mass-market sensor that they have designed, and what is the evidence that they designed it.
Because sensor is stacked with manufacturer brand, doesn't make it the manufacturer designed or made. Even Sony stamps all kind chips, processors and sensors with their own codes (IMX etc) while the designs are totally someones else. That is the common thing in the industry.
It's also nonsense. Sony doesn't do foundry sensor work and every chip labelled 'IMX' was designed (as in process, circuitry and layout) by Sony engineers. If you want foundries to make your sensors to your own design, you go to TowerJazz, or TSMC or Dongbu, not Sony.
LOL. So you really claim that because there is "SONY" on the chip, it is Sony designed?
Absolutely. Sony doesn't do foundry services for image sensors (it does for MEMS, but that's a completely different situation). An if you use a foundry service, and send the tape-outs to a foundry, your VLSI design engineers write you name on the chip, not the foundry's (why would they write the foundry's name?).

The sole exception in the case of Sony is the D5 sensor, which was a Nikon co-designed with Toshiba and was being fabricated on Toshiba's line when Sony bought the business, so there is an existing contractual arrangement. And that sensor doesn't have 'Sony' written on the chip.

In any case, why would any company want to use Sony as a foundry, when they'd always take second place to Sony's own work and risk their own IP being co-opted by Sony when there are plenty of independent image sensor foundries available? The only reason that Sony sensors perform better that the competition is their design, particularly the column ADC and digital CDS. You wouldn't get those if you designed you designed your own sensor, so there's be no reason going with Sony.
You can't tell anything who designed the silicone by looking at its texts or serial numbers.
By and large silicone is not used in image sensors, sometimes it is used to enhance the subjects those sensors get pointed at.
Even a very slight series change can mean that the chip is designed totally differently by someone else.
Please do explain what you mean by that, and give an actual example of such a case.
Playstation 2, Playstation 3, Playstation 4 etc.
What on earth are you talking about? Playstations are games consoles, not chips. The transdition from PS, PS2, PS3 and PS4 is not a 'very slight series change', they were each ground-up new products. Only the name carried forward.

The original PS and PS2 used a MIPS processor core, Sony designed GPU fabricated by Sony SS. PS3 used the IBM Cell PowerPC architecture plus and nVidea GPU, fabricated on the Sony/Toshiba/IBM 'fab club' (three companies keeping their lines compatible so that they could all process the same chip designs). Playstation 4 used a custom design by AMD based around its Jaguar x86 microarchitecture and fabricated by TSMC. I guess the move to TSMC was due to Sony deciding that dedicating their fabs to image sensor production was a better option than trying to keep up with the competitive processor market.

In any, case, this has zero connection to the question of an image sensor which has the same specification and same performance.
Just like they have as well imaging sensors designed by others and produced only by Sony, stamped with Sony production codes and brands in the same way.
Complete nonsense for which you have zero supporting evidence, and which goes agains common practice in the semiconductor industry.

What's amusing is to work out what is your motivation for making up all this nonsense. To argue that Olympus might have designed their own sensor for this camera, and made it work no better than the sensor they were already buying from Sony. If true, all it would mean would be that their management was incredibly stupid, that they would spend good money designing a complete new sensor that only did what the old sensor would do. Why would they do that?
 
They would have to acquire access to leading edge IP, like competitive column ADCs, they would have to find a foundry that can do wafer thinning and packaging for large chips to allow BSI, etc, etc.
Check Olympus finance papers about decade ago, they purchased the equipment to do all required.
10 years ago.... do you think it still works?... :-D

That is a long time for this sort of equipment, even if they managed to keep it functional. Let's hope they did some technological upgrades to it. Otherwise it may not be much good towards modern chip design.
The joke is, it isn't even about the equipment. Wafer thinning has been around for a long time. The cheapest and most widely used method is grinding, simply abrade away the unwanted silicon. But it's no good for image sensors, because it doesn't leave an optical finish (and typical optical grinding and polishing processes can't easily be applied to silicon wafers). Image sensors have had to use chemical or plasm etching based thinning techniques, and until recently they were simply too expensive to allow for mass market products. It's one of the areas that Sony has put an enormous amount of R&D effort into, not just thinning wafers, but finding a process economical enough for mass production. To think that Olympus would be able to do it by 'buying the equipment' is a joke.
 
for bodies up to about 1k EUR/USD.

The more pricey the body gets the more attractive Fuji APSc and FF become.

If size and weight are very, I mean VERY, important to you, you might even spend up to 2k for a M43 body, but more is ridiculous in my eyes.

Exception perhaps is the GH line with it's video capabilities. But I am not interested in that.

Peter
how much more sensor size comparison tripe must be digested here?..

I would not take a FF camera for free... its the size and weight of the system that counts.. and m43 nails it.
The only reason m43 system weighs less is when you do not compare apples to apples. If you can find a FF lens slow enough to be truly equivalent to a m43 lens or conversely find a m43 lens fast enough to be equivalent to a FF lens . The size weight and cost differences evaporate in fact m43 is often more expensive in a true apples to apples comparison.

This does not suggest that m43 is not a great system and meets all your needs. As is demonstrated daily in the forum you can make great images with m43. It is the pointless inaccurate comparisons with other formats that make no sense.

APSc has always been "better" but yet, M43 was created, adopted, and grew.
m43 market share is contracting not growing.
 
I also do agree that oly should Ave made a sensor that Blows up during exposute to capture also the full Image circle with the interesting border and then immediately shrink again for readout and porcessing. thus the cam could be kept small, but has momentary extreme large sensor. ist my patent no. xyzabc and much better than Hasselblad for Zero euro.

br gusti
 
Yes, and this new Olympus EM1X is help speeding up the death toll

for m4/3.

Why? because it does not advance m4/3 one little bit. It is supposed to rival

Sony A9 and Canon sports cameras which of course it doesn't. The price

Olympus are asking is beyond ludicrous. So who's it for? not the Sports Photog's

nor the faithful m4/3 user. The claims they made for the EM1X do not hold up! Olympus'

failure is showing they just are unable to compete and yet want top dollar for this abject

failure. They have put themselves in a corner now which they cannot escape from!

Please Panasonic help save this wonderful system.
 

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