The same arguments about the EM1x

"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????
The reason the D5 sells for what it does is not entirely limited to the camera body. If you are buying one of those your most likely a very serious or pro sports or wildlife shooter. The reason you pay the big bucks for a D5 or Canons 1Dx is that combined with the companies expensive, large, fast tele lenses, the combo can do things that no other camera lens combination can do.
Like what? When you spend 6500 on a camera body vs 1300 you expect the body to deliver an advantage. My comparison was inside formats.
Maybe not directly, but the thread was about the EM1x so it is an inevitable comparison. As for the D5 vs D750 you are paying for top notch AF performance and ruggedness. Ever notice how often pro football players run into the photogs on the sidelines. An 8 lb lens mounted on a camera mounted on a monpod with a 200-300 lb human running into it. It is a miracle the camera/lens doesn't break every time.
This will not change with the EM1X unless Oly releases lenses like a 200 1.4 (FF 400 2.8). A 150-400 4 or anything close to that is not going to change that.
You are suggesting that photographers are after equivalent apertures. As we can see from the wildlife exhibit on the home page, we don't actually need the apertures you are suggesting... So we are left with sports.
Recently someone posted some sports shots they did with m43. Don't remember who or exactly what they used but it was high end m43 stuff. One thing did stick out to me immediately when seeing the photos and that was the people in the stands behind the subject of the shots. Very distracting and the OOF areas were very nervous looking as is often seen in many recent lens designs. Someone using a Nikon or Canon 300 or 400 2.8 would have produced a very different and less distracting background for the shot.

I would say the same applies for wildlife shots typically.
Also remember many thought the EM1 II would be able to replace a pro sports oriented FF DSLR before it was announced. I don't think anyone now could make that claim with a straight face.
I personally don't understand this fascination with sports as the benchmark. How many photographers here are posting sports imagery? Yet it is spoken about over and over.
Why would you want a cameral like the EM1x if not doing sports or maybe wildlife? Seems totally aimed at that market.
There are tonnes of applications where reliability, speed and size matter.
PJs maybe?
Any professional application. It is a form factor and a build quality. We don't know yet if the features need this sizing, it seems video is also a component and vastly improved according to a random poster Art 43rumors. Anyways a few days and we will know for sure.
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Jonathan
 
If the EM1X meets these, the size and price of the camera are easy for me to get over.
 
How about posting this or maybe a poll on the Sport and Action Photography forum and see how many are interested in the camera. Really discussing this stuff in the rather closed world of the m43 forum isn't going to reveal much.
 
"Really discussing this stuff in the rather closed world of the m43 forum isn't going to reveal much."

Sorry, this is the busiest forum in DPreview.
Where else should a m43 camera be discussed?
 
but I can't help but fear that Olympus (and Panasonic with the G9) have decided to devote the lion's share of their resources to develop and improve the big cameras and lenses, which leaves the rest of us feeling a little neglected.
Doesn't Olympus offer a lot of cheaper lenses, too?
 
"Really discussing this stuff in the rather closed world of the m43 forum isn't going to reveal much."

Sorry, this is the busiest forum in DPreview.
Where else should a m43 camera be discussed?
you only want to discuss it relative to other m43 cameras, this place is fine. This camera however seems to have much broader ambitions than any current m43 camera. Many seem to think it can replace a pro FF sports oriented DSLR. Why not ask the people that use such equipment if they think so?
 
Any professional application. It is a form factor and a build quality. We don't know yet if the features need this sizing, it seems video is also a component and vastly improved according to a random poster Art 43rumors. Anyways a few days and we will know for sure.
the release of this camera. Much better to discuss fact than speculate which to some extent we all are doing. Makes me long for the good old day when you opened up your favorite photography magazine and discovered a new camera had been released. Ah the good old days.
 
"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????
The reason the D5 sells for what it does is not entirely limited to the camera body. If you are buying one of those your most likely a very serious or pro sports or wildlife shooter. The reason you pay the big bucks for a D5 or Canons 1Dx is that combined with the companies expensive, large, fast tele lenses, the combo can do things that no other camera lens combination can do.
Like what? When you spend 6500 on a camera body vs 1300 you expect the body to deliver an advantage. My comparison was inside formats.
Maybe not directly, but the thread was about the EM1x so it is an inevitable comparison. As for the D5 vs D750 you are paying for top notch AF performance and ruggedness. Ever notice how often pro football players run into the photogs on the sidelines. An 8 lb lens mounted on a camera mounted on a monpod with a 200-300 lb human running into it. It is a miracle the camera/lens doesn't break every time.
This will not change with the EM1X unless Oly releases lenses like a 200 1.4 (FF 400 2.8). A 150-400 4 or anything close to that is not going to change that.
You are suggesting that photographers are after equivalent apertures. As we can see from the wildlife exhibit on the home page, we don't actually need the apertures you are suggesting... So we are left with sports.
Recently someone posted some sports shots they did with m43. Don't remember who or exactly what they used but it was high end m43 stuff. One thing did stick out to me immediately when seeing the photos and that was the people in the stands behind the subject of the shots. Very distracting and the OOF areas were very nervous looking as is often seen in many recent lens designs. Someone using a Nikon or Canon 300 or 400 2.8 would have produced a very different and less distracting background for the shot.

I would say the same applies for wildlife shots typically.
Certainly couldn't win international awards without those big, heavy, exotic lenses right?


14/15 of the award winning shots are within the current (and limited) shooting envelope of mFT. The 1 that was not, was within one stop. Worth noting, 5/15 were using integrated grip bodies.
 
But not a camera that has not been presented yet!
Only the results could convince the others.
Too early to discuss EM1X in other forums.
 
But not a camera that has not been presented yet!
Only the results could convince the others.
Too early to discuss EM1X in other forums.
it certainly would be better if this speculation everyone is involved in could wait for an actual camera to be released. Maybe the mods could ban it - you know, like equi …
 
"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????
The reason the D5 sells for what it does is not entirely limited to the camera body. If you are buying one of those your most likely a very serious or pro sports or wildlife shooter. The reason you pay the big bucks for a D5 or Canons 1Dx is that combined with the companies expensive, large, fast tele lenses, the combo can do things that no other camera lens combination can do.
Like what? When you spend 6500 on a camera body vs 1300 you expect the body to deliver an advantage. My comparison was inside formats.
This will not change with the EM1X unless Oly releases lenses like a 200 1.4 (FF 400 2.8). A 150-400 4 or anything close to that is not going to change that.
You are suggesting that photographers are after equivalent apertures. As we can see from the wildlife exhibit on the home page, we don't actually need the apertures you are suggesting... So we are left with sports.
Again you suggest that wildlife photographers don’t use their big lenses wide open. And you base that on one or two exhibits you’ve looked at.

What about this observation


“Wildlife Photographer of the year 2018 . . . it was dominated with Full Frame with the 200-400 F4, 500mm F4 and your typical 100-400ish lens. The majority of the shots were shot wide open and couldn't be achieved with M43 cameras”
Also remember many thought the EM1 II would be able to replace a pro sports oriented FF DSLR before it was announced. I don't think anyone now could make that claim with a straight face.
I personally don't understand this fascination with sports as the benchmark. How many photographers here are posting sports imagery? Yet it is spoken about over and over.
You don’t understand. Maybe you should go on a shoot with a Sports or Wildlife photographer - Pro or enthusiast - and see things from their end of the camera. Find out why shutter speed dominates their thinking and why big lenses are so important to their work.
There are tonnes of applications where reliability, speed and size matter.
no one is suggesting otherwise
 
"Really discussing this stuff in the rather closed world of the m43 forum isn't going to reveal much."

Sorry, this is the busiest forum in DPreview.
Where else should a m43 camera be discussed?
you only want to discuss it relative to other m43 cameras, this place is fine. This camera however seems to have much broader ambitions than any current m43 camera. Many seem to think it can replace a pro FF sports oriented DSLR. Why not ask the people that use such equipment if they think so?
At Fred Miranda that's exactly what some FF DSLR owners are saying, providing the E-M1X is able to perform as the rumors are saying it can.
 
Canon or Nikon cameras. How many of those you think will jump to Olympus for an EM1X?
You mean how many Canon and Nikon users would jump for it?
Yup.
That depends. If Olympus brings to the table something that neither Canon nor Nikon offer, then why not?
Because their cameras were enough to get those award winning shots? Because of the cost of switch and sensor step down they may not be used to?
The question is, will they?
Well, yes :-)
The whole move seems to be very bold to me. And even if it does, how will they convince people who are fixated on a single aspect like sensor size?
I have to admit that I find that amusing when so many here seem fixated on IBIS (which Sony and Nikon have now anyway). I see it as a hierarchy- a better sensor like the FF sensor gives you much more than what IBIS will give you overall. It's much more basic in what kind of image in general you can take in more domains.

But yes, I think your question is valid, for sure. At least from a marketing point of view.
Anyway, the best strategy is to offer a product that solves some problem or offers a competitive advantage to the user. Hopefully Olympus gets it.
Aha :-). I think that would have been a top pro tech EM5 MKIII (we can call it even something else). Nothing can match the size at all in FF that way. But right now..

I think you and I agree the there has to be some unique selling proposition. Not happy with the body of the EM1X from what I see but at least in telephoto lenses m43rds keeps an advantage in size for the lens vs FF.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
 
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"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????
The reason the D5 sells for what it does is not entirely limited to the camera body. If you are buying one of those your most likely a very serious or pro sports or wildlife shooter. The reason you pay the big bucks for a D5 or Canons 1Dx is that combined with the companies expensive, large, fast tele lenses, the combo can do things that no other camera lens combination can do.
Like what? When you spend 6500 on a camera body vs 1300 you expect the body to deliver an advantage. My comparison was inside formats.
This will not change with the EM1X unless Oly releases lenses like a 200 1.4 (FF 400 2.8). A 150-400 4 or anything close to that is not going to change that.
You are suggesting that photographers are after equivalent apertures. As we can see from the wildlife exhibit on the home page, we don't actually need the apertures you are suggesting... So we are left with sports.
Again you suggest that wildlife photographers don’t use their big lenses wide open. And you base that on one or two exhibits you’ve looked at.

What about this observation

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61892536

“Wildlife Photographer of the year 2018 . . . it was dominated with Full Frame with the 200-400 F4, 500mm F4 and your typical 100-400ish lens. The majority of the shots were shot wide open and couldn't be achieved with M43 cameras”
Nothing in that link supports what you said. The overwhelming majority of this years winners used focal lengths and apertures easily achieved on current mFT lenses.
 
"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????
The reason the D5 sells for what it does is not entirely limited to the camera body. If you are buying one of those your most likely a very serious or pro sports or wildlife shooter. The reason you pay the big bucks for a D5 or Canons 1Dx is that combined with the companies expensive, large, fast tele lenses, the combo can do things that no other camera lens combination can do.
Like what? When you spend 6500 on a camera body vs 1300 you expect the body to deliver an advantage. My comparison was inside formats.
Maybe not directly, but the thread was about the EM1x so it is an inevitable comparison. As for the D5 vs D750 you are paying for top notch AF performance and ruggedness. Ever notice how often pro football players run into the photogs on the sidelines. An 8 lb lens mounted on a camera mounted on a monpod with a 200-300 lb human running into it. It is a miracle the camera/lens doesn't break every time.
Your replies indicate that you missed that Latchin's questions are rhetorical and satirical. He is not saying that Nikon have no right to charge 5x the price for a camera with the same MP and DR as the cheaper camera. He is mocking the m43-bashers who are so outraged that Olympus dare charge 3x the PEN-F price for a camera with similar MP and DR. If it is outrageous for Olympus to do it, then same applies to Nikon, right? Get it?
 
"Really discussing this stuff in the rather closed world of the m43 forum isn't going to reveal much."

Sorry, this is the busiest forum in DPreview.
Where else should a m43 camera be discussed?
you only want to discuss it relative to other m43 cameras, this place is fine. This camera however seems to have much broader ambitions than any current m43 camera. Many seem to think it can replace a pro FF sports oriented DSLR. Why not ask the people that use such equipment if they think so?
Oh, if only people restricted discussions here to m43 vs m43. Where have you been?
 
"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????
Oh come on. The Nikon D5 has all the tech Nikon can bring to bear for a DSLR. It has better components - mechanical and electronic - than any other camera ion the line. Absolutely beats the D850 in frame speed, focus speed, tracking assuredness, frame blackout time, HI ISO performance, battery performance, robustness, etc, etc. It is easily the most amazing DSLR ever built.
"The sensor is tiny"
The sensor may only be 2 stops behind in theory, but the sensor technology lags behind a little bit more. There is not as much development in 4/3rds sensors by Sony. For instance, even their latest 4/3rds sensors aren't BSI. The latest 24MP FF sensor from Sony is more technically advanced BSI.

Olympus must up the resolution of their sensors to around 30MP or risk getting left behind. I can put a 300mm f/4.0 on a FF Nikon Z7 and shoot in DX crop and still get 20MP. When Canon brings out their 75MP FF in an EOS R things will get even tougher: that's almost the break even point (4 X 20 +80MP).

But, hey, it still looks like a cool camera, even if it's not for me.
 
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But not a camera that has not been presented yet!
Only the results could convince the others.
Too early to discuss EM1X in other forums.
it certainly would be better if this speculation everyone is involved in could wait for an actual camera to be released. Maybe the mods could ban it - you know, like equi …
Yeah, lets just scrap the forum all together. Discussing upcoming products is one of the major subjects for a forum like this.
 
How can anyone here know anything about the performance of a camera by the way it looks?

Let me help:

"It's too big"
We read this again and again, and despite many users chiming in that for a long day shooting, or when shooting with heavy lenses they prefer to use the grip. I can tell you that for every professional shoot I do with the EM1.2 or EM5.2 they both are gripped.

We don't know what Olympus has chosen to do with the extra room, maybe it is for the dual processors and cooling, maybe it is for extra IBIS tech and motion sensors, maybe it has sim tech/wifi and an antenna etc.

"It's too expensive"
Currently the Nikon D750, a 24mp FF body retails at $1300 at BH, the Nikon D5 retails at $6500 at BH. How can Nikon justify the price difference? It isn't image quality as the D750 has that beaten on all fronts. We are talking 4 times the price, how could they dare ask such a price with no IQ improvement????

The Pen F, a 20mp rangefinder is currently $999 at BH, at $3000 this body would be 3 times the price. It would offer a number of technical features that the Pen doesn't, as well as the usual benchmarks of a professional grade tool of build quality, reliability etc.

But more importantly if it performs the part, and we have no idea yet, it is under half the price of the larger sensor camera targeting the same market.

"The sensor is tiny"
Its a deal breaker since m43 can't match the dof control ff provides, for me, everything else you wrote matters 0.

As far as sensor size is different this deal breaker stays, i will never consider m43 camera.

Also second very important point, i can use all the lenses designes for ff film cameras on ff sensor and most of them are cheaply available.

You can use them on m43 but then the crop factor is a deal breaker.

I am sure for lots of camera buyers what i said is very important but somehow you missed it completely.
2 stops. That is the difference between the smaller sensor and the larger. Visit the wildlife 2018 photographer award on the home page. Note the apertures are stopped down for the most part and depth of field is best described as "deep" in most images.

Most sports imagery is not poster material, but online and in small print. This is why, combined with speed, all sports cameras have around 20mp.

Often one of those 2 stops is clawed back by lenses. So if a FF users uses a 300mm f4, the difference is one stop, one. The FF user needs to buy the fastest long lenses to maintain that advantage. So they need a 300mm f2.8, 400mm f2.8, 600mm f4. And if they select the lighter option the advantage is now 1 stop, one.

"Noone will buy it"
The idea that the majority of m43rds users are frail individuals who only casually use the equipment and need the lightest stuff possible becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. If Olympus never builds a top of the line body, people who want a top of the line body will never be able to buy it.

If technologies are as leading as seem to be implied:
Fastest FPS with AF
Industry leading stabilization
Hand Held High res (portrait, landscape, macro
GPS, barometer and thermometer readings in camera
Longest battery life of any mirrorless camera
Fully functional wifi and high speed sharing of files
Most complete mirrorless lens suite of any camera maker
Improved video with LOG and framerate options
Industry leading weathersealing and ruggedness

Those elements have real value. The hand held high res might be enough for me to get it. If it combines that with GH5-ish video quality it is a no-brainer.

"It is like 43rds all over again"
This is complete revisionist history. When Olympus moved to Mirrorless it was ahead of the game, when it moved to AF cameras and Digital SLRs it was behind the times.

When Olympus launched the E-Volt system it began with its most expensive cameras and lenses and trickled down. However in mirrorless it built from the ground up, with smaller lenses and cameras first, building up to a professional set of bodies.

When Olympus made the E-5 it was trailing the leaders in almost every technology, AF, DR, Resolution, Video specs, Lens selection etc. Today with the new EM1x the m43rds system has one of the most diverse lens selections and technologies in the market.

To finish, without a doubt the camera market is contracting. However the production of lenses and bodies to expand the usefulness of the lenses in the system makes the system successful. When DJI makes a drone with the M43rds mount they sell Olympus and Panasonic lenses, as Black Magic makes a class leading video camera with a m43rds mount they sell m43rds lenses etc.

The success of this mount is less on the individual bodies, but as an ecosystem. The EM1x builds on 10 years of mirrorless development, as the major players move into mirrorless and their users move into the mirrorless space, being the maker with the smallest high performance body and fullest suite of compatible lenses is not to be ignored.

The major push at winning the FF mirrorless wars will leave Olympus and Fuji with a larger crop sensor market with both companies having deep lens selections and little competition. In fact, so little that I wouldn't be surprised if sony releases an APSC body soon.

Anyways, back to work.
--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
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