tlittlefield
Forum Enthusiast
Yes this is a "Z" forum and just noticed that you have zero equipment listed in your profile.
Do you actually own a 6/7 or any cameras at all?
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Controlling in Camera JPEG Creation in Z6, Z7
Do you actually own a 6/7 or any cameras at all?
Yes, I do. And now, it's clear that you either aren't reading, don't understand what you read, or are very poor at detective work. In my very first response to you, I posted a link to this thread:
Or, click my username above to take a look at my past posts. Or search the forum for my user name.
And you think I don't own a Z6 or Z7 camera? Which other Nikon cameras do you / did you own before the Z (the only equipment in your profile)? Or are you just learning too? And if you are just learning these basics, why are you adding misinformation to this thread, such as not understanding how raw rendering works?
Actually, forget about answering those.
It's clear that you don't quite understand the topics at hand, and that you are adding nothing of substance. This back and forth with you is a waste of my time. I'll just add you onto my ignore list.
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tlittlefield
Forum Enthusiast
YOU don't understand!! You do not have any equipment listed in your profile why? I don't care about your past posts it is all about this one.
And I am not a beginner in photography, if YOU read my entire post. I sot film for 20 years exclusively with Nikon, F-5, N90s bodies and many Nikkor lenses over time. Then digitally with the D70, D100 and P7800 and I have processed many, many RAW files.
I am just pointing out that with the processing power that is now in the Z series RAW files and post processing is a thing of the past
tlittlefield
Forum Enthusiast
Nikon Z6 setup guide with tips and tricks 2025
Nikon Z6 setup guide with tips and tricks Introduction The Nikon Z6 uses a new 24 megapixel Full-frame sensor as incorporates many of the features...
www.wimarys.com
It is a more or less re-hash of the users manual but the author does offer some good suggestions
Wasn't implying other cameras didn't! The D3100 was the first camera I had which had them, one of a number of reasons I upgraded from my D80, which didn't. Never felt the need to import picture controls on the D3100, although I've used that facility on my Df. Not sure but I think the D90 may have had them.The D3100 and other entry-level cameras don't allow importing picture controls. But every Nikon even close to this Z range has always allowed them, for well over a decade. Today, I think every camera from the D5### series and up, so essentially just not the D3### cameras.Think the OP is making a perfectly valid point. I've been relying on tweaking jpeg parameters in camera ever since I had usable controls to tweak when I bought a D3100 around 8 years ago; I find it an effective way of working. But with the Z6 Nikon has given us a whole new level of controls to tweakI'm only just starting to play with them.
Nigel
Yes, Nikon's D90 (from 10 years ago) also allowed importing custom picture controls. That's the point I am making: this is not news.Wasn't implying other cameras didn't! The D3100 was the first camera I had which had them, one of a number of reasons I upgraded from my D80, which didn't. Never felt the need to import picture controls on the D3100, although I've used that facility on my Df. Not sure but I think the D90 may have had them.The D3100 and other entry-level cameras don't allow importing picture controls. But every Nikon even close to this Z range has always allowed them, for well over a decade. Today, I think every camera from the D5### series and up, so essentially just not the D3### cameras.Think the OP is making a perfectly valid point. I've been relying on tweaking jpeg parameters in camera ever since I had usable controls to tweak when I bought a D3100 around 8 years ago; I find it an effective way of working. But with the Z6 Nikon has given us a whole new level of controls to tweak
Nigel
When you say "a whole new level of controls to tweak," this is not really the case. The Nikon Z6 literally added only one new control: mid-range sharpening. That's not exactly "a whole new level of controls to tweak."
So I stand by my earlier comments. It's misleading to even suggest that this is a new feature just because someone just learned about it.
The salient point is that with the newer Nikons you have more control on how the scene is translated to jpeg. Specifically:Yes, Nikon's D90 (from 10 years ago) also allowed importing custom picture controls. That's the point I am making: this is not news.Wasn't implying other cameras didn't! The D3100 was the first camera I had which had them, one of a number of reasons I upgraded from my D80, which didn't. Never felt the need to import picture controls on the D3100, although I've used that facility on my Df. Not sure but I think the D90 may have had them.The D3100 and other entry-level cameras don't allow importing picture controls. But every Nikon even close to this Z range has always allowed them, for well over a decade. Today, I think every camera from the D5### series and up, so essentially just not the D3### cameras.Think the OP is making a perfectly valid point. I've been relying on tweaking jpeg parameters in camera ever since I had usable controls to tweak when I bought a D3100 around 8 years ago; I find it an effective way of working. But with the Z6 Nikon has given us a whole new level of controls to tweak
Nigel
When you say "a whole new level of controls to tweak," this is not really the case. The Nikon Z6 literally added only one new control: mid-range sharpening. That's not exactly "a whole new level of controls to tweak."
So I stand by my earlier comments. It's misleading to even suggest that this is a new feature just because someone just learned about it.
“With minimal artificial manipulation of color and brightness, Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it. As you can see in the graph, images or movies taken with Flat contain rich information extending from shadow to the medium brightness range. Also, from the medium to high brightness range, artificial processing is minimized and the subject’s information is maintained. Therefore, Flat is optimal for capturing raw materials to be used for post-shooting adjustment.”
I even linked to this graph .
So while picture controls have been around, the flat scene transfer curve is only found on the newer Nikons, which is useful for making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information because " Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it."
Unfortunately, that also isn't true. And if you see my links earlier (when you said that I don't understand what this is about), I describe Picture Control manipulation in detail, based on Flat.The salient point is that with the newer Nikons you have more control on how the scene is translated to jpeg. Specifically:Yes, Nikon's D90 (from 10 years ago) also allowed importing custom picture controls. That's the point I am making: this is not news.Wasn't implying other cameras didn't! The D3100 was the first camera I had which had them, one of a number of reasons I upgraded from my D80, which didn't. Never felt the need to import picture controls on the D3100, although I've used that facility on my Df. Not sure but I think the D90 may have had them.The D3100 and other entry-level cameras don't allow importing picture controls. But every Nikon even close to this Z range has always allowed them, for well over a decade. Today, I think every camera from the D5### series and up, so essentially just not the D3### cameras.Think the OP is making a perfectly valid point. I've been relying on tweaking jpeg parameters in camera ever since I had usable controls to tweak when I bought a D3100 around 8 years ago; I find it an effective way of working. But with the Z6 Nikon has given us a whole new level of controls to tweak
Nigel
When you say "a whole new level of controls to tweak," this is not really the case. The Nikon Z6 literally added only one new control: mid-range sharpening. That's not exactly "a whole new level of controls to tweak."
So I stand by my earlier comments. It's misleading to even suggest that this is a new feature just because someone just learned about it.
“With minimal artificial manipulation of color and brightness, Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it. As you can see in the graph, images or movies taken with Flat contain rich information extending from shadow to the medium brightness range. Also, from the medium to high brightness range, artificial processing is minimized and the subject’s information is maintained. Therefore, Flat is optimal for capturing raw materials to be used for post-shooting adjustment.”
I even linked to this graph .
So while picture controls have been around, the flat scene transfer curve is only found on the newer Nikons, which is useful for making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information because " Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it."
Nikon's Flat Picture control has been around since at least the D810, which was released 5 years ago. See here:
- https://www.nikon.com/news/2014/0626_dslr_01.htm
(Look at the D810's "Primary Feature" #2)
What does it say after the asterisk below the very first paragraph? Here, let me help:
- "*Only available with the D810 or cameras released after the D810, Picture Control Utility 2, ViewNX 2 and Capture NX-D (as of June 26, 2014)."
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I said: "Sorry if you don't understand what this is about." and tried to clarify.Unfortunately, that also isn't true. And if you see my links earlier (when you said that I don't understand what this is about),The salient point is that with the newer Nikons you have more control on how the scene is translated to jpeg. Specifically:Yes, Nikon's D90 (from 10 years ago) also allowed importing custom picture controls. That's the point I am making: this is not news.Wasn't implying other cameras didn't! The D3100 was the first camera I had which had them, one of a number of reasons I upgraded from my D80, which didn't. Never felt the need to import picture controls on the D3100, although I've used that facility on my Df. Not sure but I think the D90 may have had them.The D3100 and other entry-level cameras don't allow importing picture controls. But every Nikon even close to this Z range has always allowed them, for well over a decade. Today, I think every camera from the D5### series and up, so essentially just not the D3### cameras.Think the OP is making a perfectly valid point. I've been relying on tweaking jpeg parameters in camera ever since I had usable controls to tweak when I bought a D3100 around 8 years ago; I find it an effective way of working. But with the Z6 Nikon has given us a whole new level of controls to tweak
Nigel
When you say "a whole new level of controls to tweak," this is not really the case. The Nikon Z6 literally added only one new control: mid-range sharpening. That's not exactly "a whole new level of controls to tweak."
So I stand by my earlier comments. It's misleading to even suggest that this is a new feature just because someone just learned about it.
“With minimal artificial manipulation of color and brightness, Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it. As you can see in the graph, images or movies taken with Flat contain rich information extending from shadow to the medium brightness range. Also, from the medium to high brightness range, artificial processing is minimized and the subject’s information is maintained. Therefore, Flat is optimal for capturing raw materials to be used for post-shooting adjustment.”
I even linked to this graph .
So while picture controls have been around, the flat scene transfer curve is only found on the newer Nikons, which is useful for making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information because " Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it."
Who said it was unique to the Z's? The very beginning of this thread says " latest Nikon cameras like the Z6, Z7, D 850..." etc. There is nothing that said that it is unique to the Z's, but the newer Nikons. Why put "unique to the Z's" in there? And if you want to nit pic, that is not 5 years, do the math. Do you think your posts are useful when it comes to making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information? These forums can be useful, or a place to nit pic and attack. Do what you want, express yourself.
OK, Mr. "Nit-pick." It is not 5 years. Tomorrow, it will be exactly 4.5 years ago. As if that changes the point at all.I said: "Sorry if you don't understand what this is about." and tried to clarify.Unfortunately, that also isn't true. And if you see my links earlier (when you said that I don't understand what this is about),The salient point is that with the newer Nikons you have more control on how the scene is translated to jpeg. Specifically:Yes, Nikon's D90 (from 10 years ago) also allowed importing custom picture controls. That's the point I am making: this is not news.Wasn't implying other cameras didn't! The D3100 was the first camera I had which had them, one of a number of reasons I upgraded from my D80, which didn't. Never felt the need to import picture controls on the D3100, although I've used that facility on my Df. Not sure but I think the D90 may have had them.The D3100 and other entry-level cameras don't allow importing picture controls. But every Nikon even close to this Z range has always allowed them, for well over a decade. Today, I think every camera from the D5### series and up, so essentially just not the D3### cameras.Think the OP is making a perfectly valid point. I've been relying on tweaking jpeg parameters in camera ever since I had usable controls to tweak when I bought a D3100 around 8 years ago; I find it an effective way of working. But with the Z6 Nikon has given us a whole new level of controls to tweak
Nigel
When you say "a whole new level of controls to tweak," this is not really the case. The Nikon Z6 literally added only one new control: mid-range sharpening. That's not exactly "a whole new level of controls to tweak."
So I stand by my earlier comments. It's misleading to even suggest that this is a new feature just because someone just learned about it.
“With minimal artificial manipulation of color and brightness, Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it. As you can see in the graph, images or movies taken with Flat contain rich information extending from shadow to the medium brightness range. Also, from the medium to high brightness range, artificial processing is minimized and the subject’s information is maintained. Therefore, Flat is optimal for capturing raw materials to be used for post-shooting adjustment.”
I even linked to this graph .
So while picture controls have been around, the flat scene transfer curve is only found on the newer Nikons, which is useful for making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information because " Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it."
Who said it was unique to the Z's? The very beginning of this thread says " latest Nikon cameras like the Z6, Z7, D 850..." etc. There is nothing that said that it is unique to the Z's, but the newer Nikons. Why put "unique to the Z's" in there? And if you want to nit pic, that is not 5 years, do the math. Do you think your posts are useful when it comes to making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information? These forums can be useful, or a place to nit pic and attack. Do what you want, express yourself.
Your entire post was about the "latest Nikons," when this is not true. Cameras 2-generations older than the latest Nikons have these same features. The D810 that has this uses Expeed-4, while the latest cameras have Expeed 6. That's how old this goes back.
Yes, my posts are useful when it comes to making jpegs which capture the scene's visual information. Because I don't just make up false claims or post old things as if they are news, like you do. For just one example, look at the link I posted above:
While your post is a "Wow, look what I just discovered! Here are (self)-references! This is new!" You also fold in some completely false statements in as well, such as those I and others previously pointed out.
It's fine if you are new to this and still learning this (which is obviously the case). But don't zealously spread false information, as you've been doing.
So again, something that you are just learning about does not mean it is new. When a baby first learns about object permanence, that doesn't mean the object disappeared all of those previous times, and it's wrong for the baby to think, justify, and spread that this was the case.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Leading Member
I have Nikon Flat on my D3400!
It's THE perfect picture profile/gamma curve for professional video production. It's not so radical like say the gray Sony S-Log (and to a lesser extent Canon C-Log and Nikon N-Log) but still doesn't crush any information. It can actually be used as is without grading if you want a flat look and requires very little tweaking to get stunning colors out of it, so works well without needing so beefy codecs.
It's THE perfect picture profile/gamma curve for professional video production. It's not so radical like say the gray Sony S-Log (and to a lesser extent Canon C-Log and Nikon N-Log) but still doesn't crush any information. It can actually be used as is without grading if you want a flat look and requires very little tweaking to get stunning colors out of it, so works well without needing so beefy codecs.
That's right. Every Nikon DSLR & Z released since 2nd quarter 2014 has Flat, including:
- D810
- D750
- D5500
- D7200
- D500
- D5
- D3400
- D5600
- D7500
- D850
- D3500
- Z7
- Z6
Fewer words more pictures.
For capturing a scene's visual information into a JPEG by controlling jpeg creation, which is what this thread is about, it is better to use a less contrasty scene transfer curve. Here is why:
Above you see a screen capture of a test image shadow area encoded by the Nikon standard profile on the left side and the flat profile that the newer Nikons have built in them on the right. The shadow area of the standard profile was pulled up to match approximately the luminance of the area from the flat profile. If you look at the boulders one can see that the standard profile does not contain much shadow detail, but the shadow area encoded by the flat profile does in fact contain a lot on shadow detail.
Nikon explains the flat profile: graph
“With minimal artificial manipulation of color and brightness, Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it. As you can see in the graph, images or movies taken with Flat contain rich information extending from shadow to the medium brightness range. Also, from the medium to high brightness range, artificial processing is minimized and the subject’s information is maintained. Therefore, Flat is optimal for capturing raw materials to be used for post-shooting adjustment.”
So flat is useful for capturing the scene visual info into a jpeg, but will typically need some adjustments before final presentation. Fortunately there are many gradations of tonality so tones can be moved around.
Another option which seems to work quite well is to use the neutral profile, with or without the embedded automatic adaptive tonal control from Apical imaging (aka Active-D lighting) which can adaptively change the transfer curve over each section of the image.
Above you see crops of the same shadow area from a contrasty image. On the left is a crop of a JPEG which was encoded from the standard transfer curve, in the middle from the neutral curve with Active-D lighting on auto (auto Active D did a very little tone curve adjustment in this picture), and on the right you see a JPEG crop encoded using the flat profile. The shadows of the standard and neutral profiles were pulled up to match the luminance of the flat profile crop. The detail in the shadow areas with the neutral profile is quite good; and in addition, the neutral profile can create images which require very few adjustments whereas the flat profile image would need more manipulation to add more contrast.
Above you see the whole test image: standard profile jpeg encode on the upper left, flat profile upper right, lower left a neutral profile with a preset which moves it very close to the standard profile, lower right and unembellished neutral profile image.
I think the holy Grail for me would be to have the raw processor create a JPEG image which would typically be very close to the final output image, but less contrasty. The raw processor would use a preset to create this JPEG, which would be quite close to the final desired output image, but still have adequate tonality for editing. When ingesting this JPEG into digital asset management (DAM) software, another preset could make or transform the look of this JPEG to whatever look I desire, but even though this DAM preset may have very dark shadows, and thus appear at first glance like a JPEG which would have little tonality in the shadows, it is backed by a JPEG designed to maintain adequate tonality throughout the image. Thus I can edit the image for final output, and output to tiff or printing would have the same number of tonality levels as the original jpeg image.
Workflow 1:
RAW Sensor data > Preset (auto-adaptive) processing > visually rich highest quality jpeg storage > Option, DAM ingest viewed with a more contrasty preset > Output (if needed): manipulate tones, size, color palette sRGB, into jpeg, tiff, print, email.
The above workflow can have the raw processing happen in the camera, with final tweaks prior to output on a general purpose computer. In addition, things in the EXIF maker notes, like Adaptive D lighting, can be implemented.
Workflow 2:
RAW Sensor data > Raw File > Preset processing, manual-adaptive processing > Output (if needed): manipulate tones, size, color palette sRGB, jpeg, tiff, print, email.
Workflow 2 is probably how most folks roll. It uses an intel processor instead of the expeed and as most use a third party raw processor the instructions in the EXIF maker notes are ignored, the extra features are not available.
In short, to capture the scene visual info into a jpeg, the scene transfer curve determines what gets dropped or squished from the original data, so a less contrasty transfer curve insures less info is thrown away. This is true whenever a jpeg is created, but becomes especially important if the jpeg is the sole source of the scene.
BTW, reference 3 is misleading if you think of jpeg images as 8 bit images. Jpeg images are more like 11 bit images, as there are 64 coefficients which must be summed for the final output. Typically this summation adds 2-3 bits to the 8 bit coefficients.
For capturing a scene's visual information into a JPEG by controlling jpeg creation, which is what this thread is about, it is better to use a less contrasty scene transfer curve. Here is why:
Above you see a screen capture of a test image shadow area encoded by the Nikon standard profile on the left side and the flat profile that the newer Nikons have built in them on the right. The shadow area of the standard profile was pulled up to match approximately the luminance of the area from the flat profile. If you look at the boulders one can see that the standard profile does not contain much shadow detail, but the shadow area encoded by the flat profile does in fact contain a lot on shadow detail.
Nikon explains the flat profile: graph
“With minimal artificial manipulation of color and brightness, Flat maintains a subject’s information as much as possible and faithfully reproduces it. As you can see in the graph, images or movies taken with Flat contain rich information extending from shadow to the medium brightness range. Also, from the medium to high brightness range, artificial processing is minimized and the subject’s information is maintained. Therefore, Flat is optimal for capturing raw materials to be used for post-shooting adjustment.”
So flat is useful for capturing the scene visual info into a jpeg, but will typically need some adjustments before final presentation. Fortunately there are many gradations of tonality so tones can be moved around.
Another option which seems to work quite well is to use the neutral profile, with or without the embedded automatic adaptive tonal control from Apical imaging (aka Active-D lighting) which can adaptively change the transfer curve over each section of the image.
Above you see crops of the same shadow area from a contrasty image. On the left is a crop of a JPEG which was encoded from the standard transfer curve, in the middle from the neutral curve with Active-D lighting on auto (auto Active D did a very little tone curve adjustment in this picture), and on the right you see a JPEG crop encoded using the flat profile. The shadows of the standard and neutral profiles were pulled up to match the luminance of the flat profile crop. The detail in the shadow areas with the neutral profile is quite good; and in addition, the neutral profile can create images which require very few adjustments whereas the flat profile image would need more manipulation to add more contrast.
Above you see the whole test image: standard profile jpeg encode on the upper left, flat profile upper right, lower left a neutral profile with a preset which moves it very close to the standard profile, lower right and unembellished neutral profile image.
I think the holy Grail for me would be to have the raw processor create a JPEG image which would typically be very close to the final output image, but less contrasty. The raw processor would use a preset to create this JPEG, which would be quite close to the final desired output image, but still have adequate tonality for editing. When ingesting this JPEG into digital asset management (DAM) software, another preset could make or transform the look of this JPEG to whatever look I desire, but even though this DAM preset may have very dark shadows, and thus appear at first glance like a JPEG which would have little tonality in the shadows, it is backed by a JPEG designed to maintain adequate tonality throughout the image. Thus I can edit the image for final output, and output to tiff or printing would have the same number of tonality levels as the original jpeg image.
Workflow 1:
RAW Sensor data > Preset (auto-adaptive) processing > visually rich highest quality jpeg storage > Option, DAM ingest viewed with a more contrasty preset > Output (if needed): manipulate tones, size, color palette sRGB, into jpeg, tiff, print, email.
The above workflow can have the raw processing happen in the camera, with final tweaks prior to output on a general purpose computer. In addition, things in the EXIF maker notes, like Adaptive D lighting, can be implemented.
Workflow 2:
RAW Sensor data > Raw File > Preset processing, manual-adaptive processing > Output (if needed): manipulate tones, size, color palette sRGB, jpeg, tiff, print, email.
Workflow 2 is probably how most folks roll. It uses an intel processor instead of the expeed and as most use a third party raw processor the instructions in the EXIF maker notes are ignored, the extra features are not available.
In short, to capture the scene visual info into a jpeg, the scene transfer curve determines what gets dropped or squished from the original data, so a less contrasty transfer curve insures less info is thrown away. This is true whenever a jpeg is created, but becomes especially important if the jpeg is the sole source of the scene.
BTW, reference 3 is misleading if you think of jpeg images as 8 bit images. Jpeg images are more like 11 bit images, as there are 64 coefficients which must be summed for the final output. Typically this summation adds 2-3 bits to the 8 bit coefficients.
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