IBIS VS NON IBIS

georgehudetz said:

Truman Prevatt said:

Don't get me wrong I have an H1 and IBIS is useful in a narrow range of conditions which I find myself in often. But there are down sides and even if IBIS is turned off - it is never really off since the sensor is never physical locked down to the frame.

Click to expand...

How certain are you of that? It seems to me they could design a set of positive stops in the frame - that are outside the normal range of motion - which could be engaged when IBIS is "off." So, a constant current would be sent to a subset of the actuators which would then push the sensor up against these positive stops, thereby ensuring a properly aligned and static sensor for normal operating conditions. Sure, a high-g impact or rapid motion could overcome the actuators and cause the sensor to move, but that seems unlikely to be caused by normal photography.

Click to expand...

In the H1 the “off” is the sensor held in place by the magnetic field. There is no hard mechanical lock. In reality a magnetic lock is probably more robust than something like describe above. In any case I have often wondered what the results would be if I took my H1 into a local welding shop and tried to use it when they fired up their arc welder.

IBIS can be useful but if not needed it may or may not be a deteriment . At any rate it adds size, weight and power dissipation to the camera even when not needed.

rwbaron said:

57even said:

Jerry-astro said:

omichael said:

Well, for the X line, Fuji’s sales are obviously better without IBIS. It can be argued that there are other reasons for this, but XT sales have done quite well without IBIS. Where are the clamoring hordes?

Click to expand...

LOL. At the present, Fuji has only a single camera model with IBIS and the remainder of their product line which doesn't. That's because it's been relatively recently introduced as a feature and a technology into their product line -- starting with a high end model, which is often the case for select features like this. So, with that information, please explain how your comment is in any way credible. If Fuji even planned to proliferate the technology more broadly across their line, that would take some time as something included in various new models when introduced.

So, given all that, it makes no sense, necessarily, for the feature to be proliferated across the line unless they can financially justify the increased costs, possible impact on camera size, etc. or if they can reduce the cost to the point where it's feasible to more broadly include it (a strategy which not everyone here would agree with regardless).

All that doesn't make the feature any sort of a failure. It simply means that, at least for now, it's being positioned more as a higher end feature. Over time, particularly if the costs can be brought down, I can absolutely see it proliferating across a larger number of models, as I believe it has in Olympus' line.

Click to expand...

Not to be too much of a pedant in this case, but the biggest selling mirrorless cameras are the Canon M series, with no IBIS. Oly and Panasonic are not selling all that well, least of all Panasonic, and they are no smaller than most APSC Fuji models. Nor did Sony see fit to put IBIS in their new A6400.

If we go back a little way, Sony had IBIS in most of their SLR cameras, and Pentax have had it in most of their DSLR models. Neither made even the slightest dent in Canon or Nikon DSLR sales.

There is no clear evidence either way, but it doesn't seem to be a killer feature. I guess Canon and Nikon will duke it out and we can see which of their mirrorless FF options wins out.

The biggest sales draws are

1. Brand

2. Price

Everything else is just forum fantasies and gear lust.

Click to expand...

IMHO people are drawn to Fuji for the following but not in any order;

Ergonomics

Lenses

User interface

"Fuji color"

Lenses (oh, I already listed that)

Commitment to APS C

Customer oriented philosophy

The rest is just fluff.

As for OIS and IBIS, for years Canon and Nikon have left IS off their highest end fast primes with the obvious exception of telephotos. I've read several times in engineer/executive interviews where it's still considered a compromise to ultimate IQ and my guess is IBIS fits into the same category. I do applaud Nikon though on their IBIS with a mechanical sensor lock when disabled as that would go a long way toward getting me into a comfort zone with the technology.

Click to expand...

I am still unsure about whether this is true, mainly because I can't think of a way this could be economically implemented.

rwbaron said:

I keep meaning to call Fuji's tech support and ask the question of (hopefully a senior tech) which is does the X-H1 have a locking mechanism that mechanically holds the sensor in a fixed position when disabled? I've never found an answer to this so far and I'd be curious to know if just for the purpose of sensor cleaning.

Click to expand...

For sensor cleaning, I think the magnets just hold it in place. At least, that's what happened on my Pentax.

I assumed the same was true for Nikon - that is wasn't a mechanical lock, just the same as turning IBIS off when the camera is powered up.

Truman Prevatt said:

georgehudetz said:

Truman Prevatt said:

Don't get me wrong I have an H1 and IBIS is useful in a narrow range of conditions which I find myself in often. But there are down sides and even if IBIS is turned off - it is never really off since the sensor is never physical locked down to the frame.

Click to expand...

How certain are you of that? It seems to me they could design a set of positive stops in the frame - that are outside the normal range of motion - which could be engaged when IBIS is "off." So, a constant current would be sent to a subset of the actuators which would then push the sensor up against these positive stops, thereby ensuring a properly aligned and static sensor for normal operating conditions. Sure, a high-g impact or rapid motion could overcome the actuators and cause the sensor to move, but that seems unlikely to be caused by normal photography.

Click to expand...

In the H1 the “off” is the sensor held in place by the magnetic field. There is no hard mechanical lock. In reality a magnetic lock is probably more robust than something like describe above.

Click to expand...

Well, it has to be more than a magnetic field. Which is to say, the sensor isn't just floating in space with it's position modulated by a magnetic field. At least, not when IBIS is off or there is no battery power, for example. So there are magnets that hold it in place when IBIS is not engaged? And wouldn't those magnets be positive stops? Which should be precisely aligned with the focal plane?

I do agree that IBIS adds complexity, and I respect your position that you want your choice in the matter. And I can see how, intellectually speaking, why somebody might be concerned that IQ could be compromised a bit. However, so far with a 60 second exposures I don't see IQ issues, so from a practical perspective (at least for LE photography) I have not yet seen a downside, but I've only done a few tests.

As a side note, there has been much discussion about body size, IQ, and Fuji's statement that IBIS causes IQ damage. Perhaps the bigger XH-1 body is needed to accommodate a design that can effectively immobilize the sensor?

Truman Prevatt said:

In any case I have often wondered what the results would be if I took my H1 into a local welding shop and tried to use it when they fired up their arc welder.

IBIS can be useful but if not needed it may or may not be a deteriment . At any rate it adds size, weight and power dissipation to the camera even when not needed.

Click to expand...

Truman Prevatt said:

georgehudetz said:

Truman Prevatt said:

Don't get me wrong I have an H1 and IBIS is useful in a narrow range of conditions which I find myself in often. But there are down sides and even if IBIS is turned off - it is never really off since the sensor is never physical locked down to the frame.

Click to expand...

How certain are you of that? It seems to me they could design a set of positive stops in the frame - that are outside the normal range of motion - which could be engaged when IBIS is "off." So, a constant current would be sent to a subset of the actuators which would then push the sensor up against these positive stops, thereby ensuring a properly aligned and static sensor for normal operating conditions. Sure, a high-g impact or rapid motion could overcome the actuators and cause the sensor to move, but that seems unlikely to be caused by normal photography.

Click to expand...

In the H1 the “off” is the sensor held in place by the magnetic field. There is no hard mechanical lock. In reality a magnetic lock is probably more robust than something like describe above. In any case I have often wondered what the results would be if I took my H1 into a local welding shop and tried to use it when they fired up their arc welder.

IBIS can be useful but if not needed it may or may not be a deteriment . At any rate it adds size, weight and power dissipation to the camera even when not needed.

Click to expand...

> have often wondered what the results would be if I took my H1 into a local welding shop and tried to use it when they fired up their arc welder.<

I don't think I'll be taking the H1 anywhere near the MRI scanner we have here at work then ;-)

It is weird how often this topic comes up. Especially when Fuji has a long history of discussing their own problems with IBIS and design choices around size and weight . Especially when Fuji already has an IBIS offering, an easy to understand model line up, with well set expectations.

It is also incredible how many dilettantes in the topic of photographic censors and electronic design there are. Some might think participants at DP Review out rank Fuji's own internal staff!

Another weird thing is how passionately important IBIS is to so many folk. It is a niche tool and there are people who demonstrate a use case for it but there are just as many people who say they need it but can't produce an image demonstrating why.

Speaking anecdotally of someone who professionally trades photography, has been published, actively sells art, and has printed pictures far larger than I should for a 24mp camera. Speaking as someone who has had my entire athletic and photographic hobbies paid for as a result. I can't think of any image I have that has been purchased or licensed where IBIS was used or needed. I might have an image from 18-135 where I accidentally left it on.

Just my thought since we're all tossing out opinions like an all you can eat Oprah "you get my 2c" buffet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

crosson said:

It is weird how often this topic comes up. Especially when Fuji has a long history of discussing their own problems with IBIS and design choices around size and weight . Especially when Fuji already has an IBIS offering, an easy to understand model line up, with well set expectations.

It is also incredible how many dilettantes in the topic of photographic censors and electronic design there are. Some might think participants at DP Review out rank Fuji's own internal staff!

Another weird thing is how passionately important IBIS is to so many folk. It is a niche tool and there are people who demonstrate a use case for it but there are just as many people who say they need it but can't produce an image demonstrating why.

Speaking anecdotally of someone who professionally trades photography, has been published, actively sells art, and has printed pictures far larger than I should for a 24mp camera. Speaking as someone who has had my entire athletic and photographic hobbies paid for as a result. I can't think of any image I have that has been purchased or licensed where IBIS was used or needed. I might have an image from 18-135 where I accidentally left it on.

Just my thought since we're all tossing out opinions like an all you can eat Oprah "you get my 2c" buffet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Click to expand...

It is probably true that many over-estimate the utility of IBIS. The psychology going on here is most likely also wrapped up in the fact that folks do not like to think they are missing out on something others have, and since there are many IBIS equipped mirrorless cameras from other manufacturers, perhaps Fuji owners without the H1 wonder what they may be missing. For my own photography, where I often find myself in dimly lit interiors where tripods are not permitted, I find it useful, though not essential. Certainly, for a majority of my photography I do not need IBIS and IBIS may even be detrimental, but given a choice I would rather have it than not have it.

However, I have seen your line of argument many times before on forums and it generally is not that strong - just because you or others do not feel the need for a function or capability does not negate the fact that others find it useful. You can debate its importance but if others find it useful then they do, end of conversation really. You open up a real can of worms when you start down the road of 'what do we actually NEED?'. Do we actually NEED AF most of the time for example, so many different metering modes, etc., etc. There are pro landscape photogs working here in the UK for example, who use large format Linhof field (film) cameras still - does that mean then that we do not need digital at all?

The issue of whether IBIS is useful or even essential on a modern mirrorless cam has been debated endlessly and the one true certainty is that there will not be 100% agreement within this or any other forum about it !

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/marcoc/
"When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence." Ansel Adams.

If they said it, they lied, just like Sony did when they claimed in-lens stabilization is preferable to IBIS. IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog and helped the seasoned photography get shots they would otherwise not have gotten.

DiffractionLtd said:

If they said it, they lied, just like Sony did when they claimed in-lens stabilization is preferable to IBIS. IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog and helped the seasoned photography get shots they would otherwise not have gotten.

Click to expand...

I think about 1% of my shots are blurred due to hand shake, about 5% have the subject blurred due to slow shutter but some are intentional, can't wait to have 149% keepers

georgehudetz said:

Truman Prevatt said:

georgehudetz said:

Truman Prevatt said:

Don't get me wrong I have an H1 and IBIS is useful in a narrow range of conditions which I find myself in often. But there are down sides and even if IBIS is turned off - it is never really off since the sensor is never physical locked down to the frame.

Click to expand...

How certain are you of that? It seems to me they could design a set of positive stops in the frame - that are outside the normal range of motion - which could be engaged when IBIS is "off." So, a constant current would be sent to a subset of the actuators which would then push the sensor up against these positive stops, thereby ensuring a properly aligned and static sensor for normal operating conditions. Sure, a high-g impact or rapid motion could overcome the actuators and cause the sensor to move, but that seems unlikely to be caused by normal photography.

Click to expand...

In the H1 the “off” is the sensor held in place by the magnetic field. There is no hard mechanical lock. In reality a magnetic lock is probably more robust than something like describe above.

Click to expand...

Well, it has to be more than a magnetic field. Which is to say, the sensor isn't just floating in space with it's position modulated by a magnetic field. At least, not when IBIS is off or there is no battery power, for example. So there are magnets that hold it in place when IBIS is not engaged?

Click to expand...

No. The sensor movement is controlled by electromagnetic servos. When you switch IBIS off, the servos are still active, but the motion sensors are turned off. When the camera is powered down, the sensor is simply floating, although some have damping springs which stop it flopping around too much. In others you can hear it moving as you tip the camera.

georgehudetz said:

And wouldn't those magnets be positive stops? Which should be precisely aligned with the focal plane?

Click to expand...

georgehudetz said:

I do agree that IBIS adds complexity, and I respect your position that you want your choice in the matter. And I can see how, intellectually speaking, why somebody might be concerned that IQ could be compromised a bit. However, so far with a 60 second exposures I don't see IQ issues, so from a practical perspective (at least for LE photography) I have not yet seen a downside, but I've only done a few tests.

Click to expand...

It's not long exposures that are the problem. It's typically shorter exposures at normal to small apertures, where an image would normally be sharp everywhere.

georgehudetz said:

As a side note, there has been much discussion about body size, IQ, and Fuji's statement that IBIS causes IQ damage. Perhaps the bigger XH-1 body is needed to accommodate a design that can effectively immobilize the sensor?

Click to expand...

Except it doesn't.

But I am quite happy as long as I have the choice to buy a camera without it. If other people find it useful, it's great that some cameras have it. I see no problems with having the choice.

DiffractionLtd said:

If they said it, they lied, just like Sony did when they claimed in-lens stabilization is preferable to IBIS. IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog and helped the seasoned photography get shots they would otherwise not have gotten.

Click to expand...

50%? I think you need to drink less coffee.

Fuji didn't lie. They designed their lenses to work over a very specific image circle. IBIS requires a large image circle. Fuji lenses were not designed for that.

If they are, they will have slightly less resolution. Everything is a compromise.

DiffractionLtd said:

IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog

Click to expand...

Then the average photog needs to cut back on the coffee and develop their skill craft.

Of years of shooting only MF cameras - I never had an AF film camera and shot mostly with a Mamiya RB 67, Zone VI field camera, F2 and Leica M4 - I don't remember an out of focus shot. I'm sure the was one but, focus was not an issue. If I got blur it is because I a subject moved during the exposure time. I can put six rounds in a 2 inch cluster in 3 seconds with my target pistol at 25 meters. I can hand hold a camera at about 1/30 second (50 mm lens) and if I have a very stable base 1/15. It takes practice and developing the skill craft but it is worth the investment.

I didn't start seeing a certain percentage of oof images until I started using AF when I got digital. The camera would throw in a clunker every once in a while. It sure wasn't 50% and it was camera shake. The manual focusing aids on modem cameras are insufficient - the focusing screens in DSLR's are insufficient for good manual focusing support. The fly by wire lenses in many of today's cameras are pretty much worthless since you don't have a direct feed back "feel" to the focusing of the lens.

But all that being said 95 to 99 in a 100 are fine. The random clunker - into the bit bucket and move on. IBIS is another control system layered on top of AF that moves something based on sensor measurements. AF moves lens elements and IBIS moves the sensor. Well AF points - particularly PDAF are located on the sensor which might or might not by vibrating depending on what the servo motors are being told. Well duh, the random clunker rate might go up. The trade of is every once in awhile on a stationary scene one might be able to get a shot without a tripod or external lighting that you could not get other wise.

I have an H1 and I turn IBIS on from time to time. However, if I don't intended to be someplace I would need IBIS, use the Pro 2 since it doesn't have two automated systems that can independent throw out a clunker. IBIS is useful in some conditions but in general mine is either off or the H1 is at home. What the IBIS allows me to do is to shoot with a lower ISO and in certain situations.

For example. I saw this shot. A lot of people in the area coming and going in the line of sight. IBIS allowed me to get this shot at base ISO as a "drive by" since the shutter speed is getting a bit low for the lens and I didn't have time to really square up and synchronize my breathing.

In case the EXIF doesn't come up which is sometimes doesn't,

H1, 50 f2 at f2 ISO 200 at 1/60 sec.



In this case it was useful. On the other hand - of the couple 100 I took that day - this was the only shot where I had or needed IBIS on.

It's a tool but when but not necessary on every camera.

--
Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

Truman Prevatt said:

DiffractionLtd said:

IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog

Click to expand...

Then the average photog needs to cut back on the coffee and develop their skill craft.

Of years of shooting only MF cameras - I never had an AF film camera and shot mostly with a Mamiya RB 67, Zone VI field camera, F2 and Leica M4 - I don't remember an out of focus shot. I'm sure the was one but, focus was not an issue. If I got blur it is because I a subject moved during the exposure time. I can put six rounds in a 2 inch cluster in 3 seconds with my target pistol at 25 meters. I can hand hold a camera at about 1/30 second (50 mm lens) and if I have a very stable base 1/15. It takes practice and developing the skill craft but it is worth the investment.

I didn't start seeing a certain percentage of oof images until I started using AF when I got digital. The camera would throw in a clunker every once in a while. It sure wasn't 50% and it was camera shake.

Click to expand...

That last line should read " It sure wasn't 50% and it WASN'T camera shake.

Truman Prevatt said:

The manual focusing aids on modem cameras are insufficient - the focusing screens in DSLR's are insufficient for good manual focusing support. The fly by wire lenses in many of today's cameras are pretty much worthless since you don't have a direct feed back "feel" to the focusing of the lens.

But all that being said 95 to 99 in a 100 are fine. The random clunker - into the bit bucket and move on. IBIS is another control system layered on top of AF that moves something based on sensor measurements. AF moves lens elements and IBIS moves the sensor. Well AF points - particularly PDAF are located on the sensor which might or might not by vibrating depending on what the servo motors are being told. Well duh, the random clunker rate might go up. The trade of is every once in awhile on a stationary scene one might be able to get a shot without a tripod or external lighting that you could not get other wise.

I have an H1 and I turn IBIS on from time to time. However, if I don't intended to be someplace I would need IBIS, use the Pro 2 since it doesn't have two automated systems that can independent throw out a clunker. IBIS is useful in some conditions but in general mine is either off or the H1 is at home. What the IBIS allows me to do is to shoot with a lower ISO and in certain situations.

For example. I saw this shot. A lot of people in the area coming and going in the line of sight. IBIS allowed me to get this shot at base ISO as a "drive by" since the shutter speed is getting a bit low for the lens and I didn't have time to really square up and synchronize my breathing.

In case the EXIF doesn't come up which is sometimes doesn't,

H1, 50 f2 at f2 ISO 200 at 1/60 sec.

In this case it was useful. On the other hand - of the couple 100 I took that day - this was the only shot where I had or needed IBIS on.

It's a tool but when but not necessary on every camera.

Click to expand...

--
Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

Personally I don’t see the need for IBIS unless you’re shooting video or something, or shooting slightly longer exposures without a tripod or shooting with very long lenses hand held. For my style of shooting IBIS isn’t necessary.

Marco Cinnirella said:

It is probably true that many over-estimate the utility of IBIS. The psychology going on here is most likely also wrapped up in the fact that folks do not like to think they are missing out on something others have, and since there are many IBIS equipped mirrorless cameras from other manufacturers, perhaps Fuji owners without the H1 wonder what they may be missing. For my own photography, where I often find myself in dimly lit interiors where tripods are not permitted, I find it useful, though not essential. Certainly, for a majority of my photography I do not need IBIS and IBIS may even be detrimental, but given a choice I would rather have it than not have it.

However, I have seen your line of argument many times before on forums and it generally is not that strong - just because you or others do not feel the need for a function or capability does not negate the fact that others find it useful. You can debate its importance but if others find it useful then they do, end of conversation really. You open up a real can of worms when you start down the road of 'what do we actually NEED?'. Do we actually NEED AF most of the time for example, so many different metering modes, etc., etc. There are pro landscape photogs working here in the UK for example, who use large format Linhof field (film) cameras still - does that mean then that we do not need digital at all?

The issue of whether IBIS is useful or even essential on a modern mirrorless cam has been debated endlessly and the one true certainty is that there will not be 100% agreement within this or any other forum about it !

Click to expand...

Beautifully put, Marco. I can think of many pictures I've taken where IBIS (or OIS with lenses so equipped) has made a big difference in capturing images that otherwise would have been extremely difficult... perhaps even impossible. For those of us who enjoy shooting dark interiors (cathedrals are a good example), the technology can be a real game changer. Is it possible to get that beautiful cathedral interior shot without it? Sure. You can find a pew or column to stabilize the camera, hope that you can still frame the shot the way you want, then carefully engage the shutter keeping the camera completely steady (remember that tripods are NOT an option here). I've done it for years with reasonable success.

Or... with an IBIS equipped camera, you can select the exact FOV you want using any lens, stand wherever you'd like, and take the shot handheld. Me? I'd prefer Option B... shooting handheld. IBIS simply adds the flexibility of adding stabilization to any lens, thus significantly increasing your options with respect to glass if you happen to be shooting in very challenging light, as I often do.

Can one live without IBIS? Of course. Those of us who've been taking pictures for a "few" years got by fine without it. However, for me and the type of photography I like to do while traveling, it has been a game changer and has enabled me to employ a far wider selection of glass. It has also enabled me to choose an optimal FOV rather than having to search for places where I can stabilize my camera. That may not matter to everyone, but it sure does to me. As a result, the X-H1 is the camera I take out when traveling these days, and my trusty X-T2 has alas been relegated to backup status (or as a second body for those few times where that's needed).

--
Jerry-Astro
Fujifilm X Forum Co-Mod

Mark,

As you have heard me say many times, IBIS is an absolute must for me. Once you have it you never want to go back. It is 5 stops of greatness. It changes the whole EV equation. It opens up all kinds of previously impossible hand-held opportunities.

It negates almost all concern of camera shake in even decent light and allows you to hand-hold shots indoors at almost half a second. It allows you to shoot more towards base ISO with much more aperture flexibility.

It is fantastic.

Fuji knows they need to get it into their other cameras. The X-Mount, which was designed with IBIS not in mind many years ago, is not optimal for the addition of IBIS into the XT-sized bodies. The X Mount is great and has enabled Fuji to design some of the best glass in the world at a relatively small size, but it is not big enough for the optimal inclusion of IBIS. They do want IBIS. But it ain't easy.

I said I would never buy another camera without IBIS. But I just did buy one without IBIS. I sure wish the GFX 50r had IBIS.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas

sluggy_warrior said:

DiffractionLtd said:

If they said it, they lied, just like Sony did when they claimed in-lens stabilization is preferable to IBIS. IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog and helped the seasoned photography get shots they would otherwise not have gotten.

Click to expand...

I think about 1% of my shots are blurred due to hand shake, about 5% have the subject blurred due to slow shutter but some are intentional, can't wait to have 149% keepers

Click to expand...

I took a non-IBIS Sony APS camera out one night and put it against an Olympus E-M5II. Now, because of its (the Sony's) 24mp sensor, it should have produced the best results. It didn't. No IBIS can have a noticeable impact on what you are able to shoot, the ISO advantage disappears and you find yourself shooting at 6400 ISO instead of 400 ISO. There are two things mirrorless cameras need to really be good: IBIS and a good EVF.

DiffractionLtd said:

sluggy_warrior said:

DiffractionLtd said:

If they said it, they lied, just like Sony did when they claimed in-lens stabilization is preferable to IBIS. IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog and helped the seasoned photography get shots they would otherwise not have gotten.

Click to expand...

I think about 1% of my shots are blurred due to hand shake, about 5% have the subject blurred due to slow shutter but some are intentional, can't wait to have 149% keepers

Click to expand...

I took a non-IBIS Sony APS camera out one night and put it against an Olympus E-M5II. Now, because of its (the Sony's) 24mp sensor, it should have produced the best results. It didn't. No IBIS can have a noticeable impact on what you are able to shoot, the ISO advantage disappears and you find yourself shooting at 6400 ISO instead of 400 ISO. There are two things mirrorless cameras need to really be good: IBIS and a good EVF.

Click to expand...

I agree, I shoot at 1/8 or even 1/4 quite frequent with the XF18-55 thanks to its OIS, but I'm not sure if we're considering OIS the same as IBIS or different.

A sample shot where I held the camera above my head, was already tired and shaking badly, intentionally choose 1/15 to show the continuous punching. But the number of shots below 1/60 perhaps is only about 10%, I prefer grainy shot over blurry shot and my subjects are usually fast moving so 1/125 is the mimimum SS when I set AutoISO.

Marco Cinnirella said:

crosson said:

It is weird how often this topic comes up. Especially when Fuji has a long history of discussing their own problems with IBIS and design choices around size and weight . Especially when Fuji already has an IBIS offering, an easy to understand model line up, with well set expectations.

It is also incredible how many dilettantes in the topic of photographic censors and electronic design there are. Some might think participants at DP Review out rank Fuji's own internal staff!

Another weird thing is how passionately important IBIS is to so many folk. It is a niche tool and there are people who demonstrate a use case for it but there are just as many people who say they need it but can't produce an image demonstrating why.

Speaking anecdotally of someone who professionally trades photography, has been published, actively sells art, and has printed pictures far larger than I should for a 24mp camera. Speaking as someone who has had my entire athletic and photographic hobbies paid for as a result. I can't think of any image I have that has been purchased or licensed where IBIS was used or needed. I might have an image from 18-135 where I accidentally left it on.

Just my thought since we're all tossing out opinions like an all you can eat Oprah "you get my 2c" buffet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Click to expand...

It is probably true that many over-estimate the utility of IBIS. The psychology going on here is most likely also wrapped up in the fact that folks do not like to think they are missing out on something others have,

Click to expand...

But that is a poor reason for a photographer.

Marco Cinnirella said:

and since there are many IBIS equipped mirrorless cameras from other manufacturers, perhaps Fuji owners without the H1 wonder what they may be missing. For my own photography, where I often find myself in dimly lit interiors where tripods are not permitted, I find it useful, though not essential. Certainly, for a majority of my photography I do not need IBIS and IBIS may even be detrimental, but given a choice I would rather have it than not have it.

Click to expand...

Yes. Though I have been in those situations without IBIS and have gotten along fine. The grain that fuji produces is not bad.

Marco Cinnirella said:

However, I have seen your line of argument many times before on forums and it generally is not that strong - just because you or others do not feel the need for a function or capability does not negate the fact that others find it useful.

Click to expand...

Actually if you read my post I didn't say that. This is not my argument.

Marco Cinnirella said:

You can debate its importance but if others find it useful then they do, end of conversation really. You open up a real can of worms when you start down the road of 'what do we actually NEED?'. Do we actually NEED AF most of the time for example, so many different metering modes, etc., etc. There are pro landscape photogs working here in the UK for example, who use large format Linhof field (film) cameras still - does that mean then that we do not need digital at all?

The issue of whether IBIS is useful or even essential on a modern mirrorless cam has been debated endlessly and the one true certainty is that there will not be 100% agreement within this or any other forum about it !

Click to expand...

That is the point people miss. The issue is not up for debate. Some consumers want it others don't. Methodological subjectivism. Some people want it, others dont. Fuji assumes a sales strategy to meet those needs. Since ibis does negatively impact size and weight fuji put it into its own line up. There already is an IBIS line at fuji.

If weight and size become a non-factor less people will be concerned with it equipped in their camera. And ofc I sympathize with those who want IBIS but have to wait what seems like a god awful long time to get it with the latest sensor. But that is never what people discuss.

DiffractionLtd said:

If they said it, they lied, just like Sony did when they claimed in-lens stabilization is preferable to IBIS. IBIS changed the game for photography, it removed the 50% of shots blurred for the average photog and helped the seasoned photography get shots they would otherwise not have gotten.

Click to expand...

They lied about what? That fuji experienced no technical problems when developing their own IBIS?

rwbaron said:

rwbaron said:

I'm guessing the OP is asking something like, can a non-IBIS Fuji with the same sensor produce a sharper image on a tri-pod than an IBIS Fuji can handheld? Are there any artifacts from using IBIS compared to a non-IBIS Fuji on a tripod?

Click to expand...

This is all from a purist's point of view but I did read a post from Digilloyd where he found unusual smeared areas in an image with his FF Sony using IBIS that he's never seen with IBIS disabled. It's interesting to read through the post as well as the comments.

Bob

Click to expand...

My experience with stabilized lenses has been mixed. Sometimes 50% of the image will be blurred for no good reason. I wonder if IS doesn't sometimes shift while the shutter is open?