Does incompetence make a difference?

It is just an enquiry and would welcome feedback:

When I read this m43 forum I often come across many posts which seem to suggest that if the poster bought a FF camera their photography would be so much better.

Except for wide field astro photography (which I doubt many of those posters do) I have never felt limited by my m43 equipment. ., And I do shoot a huge variety of subjects including commercial work.

So my initial thoughts are, is the real problem the competence of the photographer, and not actually the m43 system which they are blaming?
Incompetence isn't really a fair word. Lack of vision or creativity, perhaps… Or is that even worse? ;-) Disclaimer: I take lots of crappy photos. :-)

When I was doing mountaineering (ice, rock and snow climbing) there was a thing we called throwing hardware at a problem. If you couldn't climb something, or solve a particular problem, if you threw enough hardware (points of protection, etc.) at the problem, it could be solved. Needless to say, that approach was sneered at… HEAVILY.

Same thing here. For some people, regardless how much money they throw into equipment it will make zero difference in the final quality of their images, as opposed to image quality.
 
I don't think it is a matter of competence or incompetence.

I suspect that it is much more a matter of striving for perfection, which has become something of an epidemic in modern society.
I take that as some sort of joke and you forgot to add the smileys.
No joke, Guy, I was serious! I think perhaps you skimmed over the important word 'striving'. Most of these people don't achieve anywhere near perfection and that is the problem.

I have known several people who regarded themselves as perfectionists, but never achieved anything of note because they did a job so meticulously that they ran out of time or interest or money ....... well before the job was completed.

Haven't you ever met people like that? They always want to use the very best tools, the very best materials, the most meticulous and time-consuming methods, with no compromises. For such people, claiming that their equipment is not good enough is a common excuse for not making more progress with the job they are doing.
Is striving for perfection any more prevalent today than in the past ? Is your guess based on per capita perfectionism or absolute numbers ?
It wasn't entirely a guess, but based on a number of articles I have read about this (I don't remember the exact references, unfortunately) - the gist of the argument being that in the past more people's lives have been strongly influenced by religious beliefs, whereas today other beliefs have become more widespread. I think the argument goes that some people add meaning to their lives by a somewhat nebulous belief in seeking perfection, amongst other things.

These ideas come from both psychologists and religious philosophers.

If you want to know more, you'll have to do some googling to find some of the sources!
A quick look around seems to suggest that the main increase in perfectionists is down to those striving to achieve social perfection not those who you are describing who try to achieve perfection in a job or skill - which is a bit different - and for which there don't seem to be any numbers.

I actually foresaw this sort of thing several years ago, whereby people would start judging their own lives on how well or badly they compared with other people on "social" media. Not a new thing but facilitated by the interweb. Not that I've got anything written down to verify my prognostication :-)

Nick
There's a brilliant book by Clair North about that very subject. Called 'The Sudden Appearance of Hope'.
 
If you are a good photographer it doesn’t matter if it is APS_C ,MFT, full frame, or medium format. Focus, expose, compose, shoot.
 
I don't think it is a matter of competence or incompetence.

I suspect that it is much more a matter of striving for perfection, which has become something of an epidemic in modern society.
I take that as some sort of joke and you forgot to add the smileys.
No joke, Guy, I was serious! I think perhaps you skimmed over the important word 'striving'. Most of these people don't achieve anywhere near perfection and that is the problem.

I have known several people who regarded themselves as perfectionists, but never achieved anything of note because they did a job so meticulously that they ran out of time or interest or money ....... well before the job was completed.

Haven't you ever met people like that? They always want to use the very best tools, the very best materials, the most meticulous and time-consuming methods, with no compromises. For such people, claiming that their equipment is not good enough is a common excuse for not making more progress with the job they are doing.
Is striving for perfection any more prevalent today than in the past ? Is your guess based on per capita perfectionism or absolute numbers ?
It wasn't entirely a guess, but based on a number of articles I have read about this (I don't remember the exact references, unfortunately) - the gist of the argument being that in the past more people's lives have been strongly influenced by religious beliefs, whereas today other beliefs have become more widespread. I think the argument goes that some people add meaning to their lives by a somewhat nebulous belief in seeking perfection, amongst other things.

These ideas come from both psychologists and religious philosophers.

If you want to know more, you'll have to do some googling to find some of the sources!
A quick look around seems to suggest that the main increase in perfectionists is down to those striving to achieve social perfection not those who you are describing who try to achieve perfection in a job or skill - which is a bit different - and for which there don't seem to be any numbers.

I actually foresaw this sort of thing several years ago, whereby people would start judging their own lives on how well or badly they compared with other people on "social" media. Not a new thing but facilitated by the interweb. Not that I've got anything written down to verify my prognostication :-)

Nick
There's a brilliant book by Clair North about that very subject. Called 'The Sudden Appearance of Hope'.
the principle of hope is that you feel bad and unable in the field and have no realistic plan and believe in miracles or arbitrary Chance, without Feeling to be able to do something by yourself to Change the situation.

so, the Basis is to feel bad.who makes you that way? is this you?

do you not have Friends in the fora that Show you that you are capable? (I do think you are, much). so, what is the influence of Friends or colleagues to develop the need of hope?

is this you?

br gusti
 
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NT....
 
I don't think it is a matter of competence or incompetence.

I suspect that it is much more a matter of striving for perfection, which has become something of an epidemic in modern society.
I take that as some sort of joke and you forgot to add the smileys.
No joke, Guy, I was serious! I think perhaps you skimmed over the important word 'striving'. Most of these people don't achieve anywhere near perfection and that is the problem.

I have known several people who regarded themselves as perfectionists, but never achieved anything of note because they did a job so meticulously that they ran out of time or interest or money ....... well before the job was completed.

Haven't you ever met people like that? They always want to use the very best tools, the very best materials, the most meticulous and time-consuming methods, with no compromises. For such people, claiming that their equipment is not good enough is a common excuse for not making more progress with the job they are doing.
Is striving for perfection any more prevalent today than in the past ? Is your guess based on per capita perfectionism or absolute numbers ?
It wasn't entirely a guess, but based on a number of articles I have read about this (I don't remember the exact references, unfortunately) - the gist of the argument being that in the past more people's lives have been strongly influenced by religious beliefs, whereas today other beliefs have become more widespread. I think the argument goes that some people add meaning to their lives by a somewhat nebulous belief in seeking perfection, amongst other things.

These ideas come from both psychologists and religious philosophers.

If you want to know more, you'll have to do some googling to find some of the sources!
A quick look around seems to suggest that the main increase in perfectionists is down to those striving to achieve social perfection not those who you are describing who try to achieve perfection in a job or skill - which is a bit different - and for which there don't seem to be any numbers.

I actually foresaw this sort of thing several years ago, whereby people would start judging their own lives on how well or badly they compared with other people on "social" media. Not a new thing but facilitated by the interweb. Not that I've got anything written down to verify my prognostication :-)

Nick
There's a brilliant book by Clair North about that very subject. Called 'The Sudden Appearance of Hope'.
I'll have a look in my local booksellers for it, thanks

Nick
 
I don't think it is a matter of competence or incompetence.

I suspect that it is much more a matter of striving for perfection, which has become something of an epidemic in modern society.
I take that as some sort of joke and you forgot to add the smileys.
No joke, Guy, I was serious! I think perhaps you skimmed over the important word 'striving'. Most of these people don't achieve anywhere near perfection and that is the problem.

I have known several people who regarded themselves as perfectionists, but never achieved anything of note because they did a job so meticulously that they ran out of time or interest or money ....... well before the job was completed.

Haven't you ever met people like that? They always want to use the very best tools, the very best materials, the most meticulous and time-consuming methods, with no compromises. For such people, claiming that their equipment is not good enough is a common excuse for not making more progress with the job they are doing.
Is striving for perfection any more prevalent today than in the past ? Is your guess based on per capita perfectionism or absolute numbers ?
It wasn't entirely a guess, but based on a number of articles I have read about this (I don't remember the exact references, unfortunately) - the gist of the argument being that in the past more people's lives have been strongly influenced by religious beliefs, whereas today other beliefs have become more widespread. I think the argument goes that some people add meaning to their lives by a somewhat nebulous belief in seeking perfection, amongst other things.

These ideas come from both psychologists and religious philosophers.

If you want to know more, you'll have to do some googling to find some of the sources!
A quick look around seems to suggest that the main increase in perfectionists is down to those striving to achieve social perfection not those who you are describing who try to achieve perfection in a job or skill - which is a bit different - and for which there don't seem to be any numbers.

I actually foresaw this sort of thing several years ago, whereby people would start judging their own lives on how well or badly they compared with other people on "social" media. Not a new thing but facilitated by the interweb. Not that I've got anything written down to verify my prognostication :-)

Nick
There's a brilliant book by Clair North about that very subject. Called 'The Sudden Appearance of Hope'.
the principle of hope is that you feel bad and unable in the field and have no realistic plan and believe in miracles or arbitrary Chance, without Feeling to be able to do something by yourself to Change the situation.

so, the Basis is to feel bad.who makes you that way? is this you?

do you not have Friends in the fora that Show you that you are capable? (I do think you are, much). so, what is the influence of Friends or colleagues to develop the need of hope?

is this you?
No. Next question?

BTW. It's the title of a book, the author's choice, not mine. 'Hope' is the name of the lead character.
 
It is just an enquiry and would welcome feedback:

When I read this m43 forum I often come across many posts which seem to suggest that if the poster bought a FF camera their photography would be so much better.

Except for wide field astro photography (which I doubt many of those posters do) I have never felt limited by my m43 equipment. ., And I do shoot a huge variety of subjects including commercial work.

So my initial thoughts are, is the real problem the competence of the photographer, and not actually the m43 system which they are blaming?
I don't think it is a matter of competence or incompetence.

I suspect that it is much more a matter of striving for perfection, which has become something of an epidemic in modern society.
My grandfather used to joke, "striving for perfection is an excuse to do nothing". It was the very beginning of the XX century.
 
Leica was nothing special back then.
Leica was indeed special back then. As a teenager in the 60's, I was fortunate enough to have a photography mentor who would let us shoot with his Leica system (mostly M3's). Compared to the noisy and obtrusive SLR's of the time, the Leica's were smooth as silk, great lenses, and nothing better for compact shooting.

Then, as now, SLR and rangefinders are simply different beasts. If you did the type of shooting suited to a rangefinder, Leica's were simply top of the heap.
 
most of the 'revered' photographers from the past worked with equipment technically far inferior to today's
something very important in that statement. While the gear used by many great photographers of the past may be inferior to the tools we have today, the great photographers used the best gear available at the time. To do otherwise would have been unnecessarily limiting their talents.

As I said in another post on this topic, if Ansel Adams were alive today he would be shooting with the absolute best MF digital with the best lenses. He did the equivalent in his day. His gear was the best available at the time.
How about Robert Frank ( Americans) and William Klein?
Don't know a whole lot about those fellows. Names are vaguely familiar.

What type of photography did they do?
Grainy street.
What equipment did they use ? And in what way was it not the best available ?

Nick
I think they were both Leica shooters
Leica maybe, but still 35mm and that was a very small, comparatively low resolution format, though despite that folks like Klein and Frank as well as Garry Winogrand and a host of others produced work with that gear that folks are still talking about today. M43 compared to this might as well be medium format and yet we still have folks saying that it somehow holds them back.

My takeaway is that a) with digital even smaller formats like m43 are more than capable of capturing loads of detail even at fairly high ISO (though of course not as good as bigger) and b) that the whole resolution/IQ thing is overrated anyway. The aforementioned folks developed styles that exploited the lower resolution quality of their gear and it looked great for the kinds of things that they were shooting... so good actually that lots and lots of other photographers have imitated that very look. Some kinds of photography do benefit from the very highest IQ, but not all and what's more is that up to certain sizes at lower ISO the differences in IQ between digital formats can be pretty much indistinguishable anyway...

--
my flickr:
www.flickr.com/photos/128435329@N08/
 
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most of the 'revered' photographers from the past worked with equipment technically far inferior to today's
something very important in that statement. While the gear used by many great photographers of the past may be inferior to the tools we have today, the great photographers used the best gear available at the time. To do otherwise would have been unnecessarily limiting their talents.

As I said in another post on this topic, if Ansel Adams were alive today he would be shooting with the absolute best MF digital with the best lenses. He did the equivalent in his day. His gear was the best available at the time.
How about Robert Frank ( Americans) and William Klein?
Don't know a whole lot about those fellows. Names are vaguely familiar.

What type of photography did they do?
Grainy street.
What equipment did they use ? And in what way was it not the best available ?

Nick
I think they were both Leica shooters
So the best equipment :-)

Not sure NCV thought that one through ;-)

Nick
And how many other companies made great camers that used the same sensor (135 roll film)?
Lots! I always wanted to own one of the old Canon RF cameras more than any Leica.
Leica almost died several times and only persists as a shadow because it still has enough respect to get some to pay huge prices for its product.
Like a cat with 9 lives. I actually think digital actually saved them in a perverse way, but that is long story.
Most will put that respect on a back burner and buy Nikon or Canon, even Olympus (grin) which were of course among the very companies that brought Leica to its knees so many years ago in the days of film. Leica’s RF contemporaries all eventually went to the wall despite many of them still actually making comparible quality cameras.
Few folks not making a good living off of photography would buy Leica. Or maybe I have that backwards as most Leica owners are doctors, lawyers etc.
I guess there is always some company’s product that needs to be put on a pedestal even if few actually buy it. As is well known “nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM”.
Have you seen IBMs stock lately! I owned it briefly a few years ago. Glad I got out, but I don't have a financial advisor (luckily).
If the “Leica” example is realistic then today we would not be just lusting for FF sensor but would not buy any camera with a FF sensor unless it were made by Leica. Simply because everything else is second rate.

PS: Leica do make great gear but as “value for money” it is more questionable and more related to making it obvious that you can afford to buy it than the actual need for its technical capability.
For all the arrows that one can easily throw at Leica, in the post WW II era they were considered the best cameras and surely there is some merit to that. The Japanese quickly created a value proposition that for most people made buying a Leica like throwing money down the toilet.

My original argument in this thread is that if you are extremely talented at something, doesn't have to be photography, you will use the best equipment or your results will ultimately be limited by the equipment.

I'm not talking about myself or in all likelihood anyone that visits this forum, but the absolute best of the best. I can ski down a mountain on skis from the rental shop or the ones used by an Olympic skier and there will be little (probably no) difference. Now put those 2 same sets of ski on an Olympic gold medalist and you will see the difference.
Leica may have been the best, particularly as far as lens quality, but I don't think that the gear was significant in this case. If the aforementioned photographers used Nikon, Canon, Minolta, etc they would have gotten pretty much identical results. The best lenses for all of those systems I wouldn't imagine were far enough behind Leica to see real material differences. The point for me is not what brand of gear that these folks were using but that they were shooting 35mm and making such great memorable work. Compared to even m43 35mm is very low resolution. The lesson for me is that at least for a lot of kinds of photography capturing the maximum level of detail isn't at all important to the final product...
 
So my initial thoughts are, is the real problem the competence of the photographer, and not actually the m43 system which they are blaming?
Seriously wondering if this is an exercise in popcorn eating.

A few years ago I answered some people who had exactly the same question, and the replies they got on forums were along the lines that the smaller systems were 'incompetent' for most things, especially professional usage. Edit: Incidentally, despite owning several formats, my Panasonic GX8 remains my most used body to this day for my pro work.

This has been done to death but if you're wanting further punishment I'll indulge you. My first and most infamous article on the u4/3 and full frame debate:

https://www.lindsaydobsonphotograph...ds-vs-full-frame-for-professional-photography

The follow-up after the avalanche:

https://www.lindsaydobsonphotography.com/personal/full-frame-vs-micro-four-thirds-size-dof

Field comparisons full frame vs u4/3 in (my) real world:

https://www.ldpetphotography.com/bl...hotography-canon-5d-mkiii-and-olympus-omd-em5

--
www.lindsaydobsonphotography.com
 
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Leica may have been the best, particularly as far as lens quality,
'Leica is the best for lens quality' is a recent thing, promoted, unsurprisingly, by Leica. In the RF days, Zeiss was the best for lens quality, Leica was so-so, but made more reliable cameras.
 
It is just an enquiry and would welcome feedback:

When I read this m43 forum I often come across many posts which seem to suggest that if the poster bought a FF camera their photography would be so much better.
Can you link to one such post? Because I think you're misreading them. IF you NEED it, FF offers more possibilities. Of course, for many situations, you may not need it.

Having said that, a cell phone user can say the same thing; for their shooting style, their phone does all they want.

Nothing more than the "my Honda is as good as a Porsche" argument.
Except for wide field astro photography (which I doubt many of those posters do) I have never felt limited by my m43 equipment. ., And I do shoot a huge variety of subjects including commercial work.
Exactly. You have to have the skills and needs to take advantage of FF.
So my initial thoughts are, is the real problem the competence of the photographer, and not actually the m43 system which they are blaming?
LOL, you have to wonder why M43rds users always think they are being attacked when the opposite is true.
 
I do measure the photographic competence in (Knowledge)x(skills)/(sensor mm²)

and also the social competence in discussing without external reason the superiority of …x or silliness of … y
 
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I do measure the photographic competence in (Knowledge)x(skills)/(sensor mm²)

and also the social competence in discussing without external reason the superiority of …x or silliness of … y
The definition of competence:

"the ability to do something successfully or efficiently."

nowt to do with the kit used
 
My original argument in this thread is that if you are extremely talented at something, doesn't have to be photography, you will use the best equipment or your results will ultimately be limited by the equipment.

I'm not talking about myself or in all likelihood anyone that visits this forum, but the absolute best of the best. I can ski down a mountain on skis from the rental shop or the ones used by an Olympic skier and there will be little (probably no) difference. Now put those 2 same sets of ski on an Olympic gold medalist and you will see the difference.
...and that difference will likely be measured in hundredths of a second, which only matters at that level.
 
I do measure the photographic competence in (Knowledge)x(skills)/(sensor mm²)

and also the social competence in discussing without external reason the superiority of …x or silliness of … y
The definition of competence:

"the ability to do something successfully or efficiently."

nowt to do with the kit used
indeed, I did Forget to include creativity into the Formula :-)

Brian, it might be, that your Formula is more efficent, but what is the best compared to the most efficient? or most suitable/Budget...?

br gusti
 
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