Which VERY long reach zoom for Canon FF? Cheap, average quality, size/weight not an issue..

Thank you for your pithy comment. Point well made.

As I said, a Canon 5D plus 50-500 adds up to a lot of moolah.

Ought to produce a reasonable result.

The man was asking how he could get the longest reach for the least outlay.
Wrong, see below. He was asking for a lens for his 6D.
The answer, very simply is the Nikon P900.
Actually, here is what the OP was asking:

Hello, having recently jumped to my first FF (Canon 6D), I have re-discovered photography and enjoy it more than expected.. But budget is limited.

I live in front of a nice scenery in the form of a row of high mountain summits and enjoy each day the varied and constantly changing forms, colours, shadows, skies, clouds..

I have a 75-300mm of average quality but mostly the range is too limited.

For this primary use of photography at home, without the need for travel, which new or 2nd hand lens could you recommend here?


Criteria:
  • Focal range above 500mm.. if possible, why not 800mm or much more
  • Size not an issue
  • Weight not an issue
  • Budget max ~1000 $ or €
 
Thank you for your pithy comment. Point well made.

As I said, a Canon 5D plus 50-500 adds up to a lot of moolah.

Ought to produce a reasonable result.

The man was asking how he could get the longest reach for the least outlay.
Wrong, see below. He was asking for a lens for his 6D.
Initially yes but see the OP's second post.
 
Thank you for pointing out the second post.

This is what I had in mind.

However, will adding £1000 of lens to a 6D produce a similar result to that obtained by the cheapo P900 or the even pricier P1000?

Doubtful to say the least.

rat.
 
Thank you for pointing out the second post.

This is what I had in mind.

However, will adding £1000 of lens to a 6D produce a similar result to that obtained by the cheapo P900 or the even pricier P1000?

Doubtful to say the least.
If the aim is flat-out maximum pixels on a small, distant subject regardless of any other consideration, a sensor with a very fine pixel pitch behind a long lens is of course the way to achieve that. You can do something similar with a good phone camera and a spotting scope - 'digiscoping' - and birdwatchers who are keen to fill the screen with something ridiculously far away do this all the time.

But actually I think this discussion has become derailed by an imagined requirement for maximum possible pixels. The OP doesn't actually say that anywhere in the two opening posts, and I'm going to assume they do want some sort of decent image quality (within budget constraints) as well as improved reach. They currently have a 75-300, and while we're not told which one, the fact is they are all poor. Secondly, they have just switched to a modest resolution full frame body, which is the worst thing they could have done if maximum reach is required. One of the 150-600s would give a huge improvement in magnification and detail, and ditching the 6D in favour of an 80D or similar would multiply the pixels per subject area by a factor of three. In good conditions (both light and atmospherics) the addition of a 1.4x TC might be worthwhile, further doubling the pixel count. Multiply all that up and you find that a subject which was covered by 1,000 pixels (area) will now be 24,000 pixels.

And the important point, as I see it, is that this is all achieved with a very decent level of image quality.

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevebalcombe/
 
Last edited:
Thank you for pointing out the second post.

This is what I had in mind.

However, will adding £1000 of lens to a 6D produce a similar result to that obtained by the cheapo P900 or the even pricier P1000?

Doubtful to say the least.

rat.
People often forget about the subject and concentrate on "the image" or "the pixels".

If the OP was entering a contest where images of any arbitrary composition were judged by sharpness and noise at the image or pixel level, then the P1000 at "3000mm" would be a lousy choice; no question. If the goal is to resolve a sign on a distant mountain, and read what it says, then the P1000 can be the most useful tool, as you would need a FF camera with several hundred MPs to do it with an affordable lens about 3 or 4 pounds or less, or use a large stack of TCs with a 20MP FF, which introduces a whole set of new problems, like off-axis optics from play, electrical losses, and AF loss.

The amount of light from any object in a scene at a given distance and exposure time depends on the size of the entrance pupil, which at 68mm on the P1000 at max zoom, isn't significantly worse than any 400/5.6 lens with a stack of TCs on a 20D, at 71mm. The diffraction blur size relative to any object size is also directly related to the entrance pupil in that scenario. I think it is safe to assume that the P1000 lens has less aberration and contrast loss than a 400mm or 600mm lens with a big stack of TCs.

Let me be clear, though; it is only at very high zoom that a camera like the P1000 does what a larger sensor with a reasonable size lens can't; a small-sensor zoom that only goes to 500 or 600 "mm" ( about 100 real mm) is small and convenient, but can not do what a 600mm zoom on the 6D can't, in regard to pixels-on-subject. The 6D with a 600mm zoom can give you the same diffraction and noise, or less of both, with a 600/6.3 lens.
 
Re the last two posts.

I think it is high time somebody came up with some images, suitably titled to show exactly what happens and using what combination.

Theorising is OK but only so far.

Somebody has to get down to it and be a bit more practical.

There can be some quite serious money involved here so it is important to see what you actually get for it.

I've already put my money where my mouth is.

Your turn.

rat.
 
Re the last two posts.

I think it is high time somebody came up with some images, suitably titled to show exactly what happens and using what combination.

Theorising is OK but only so far.

Somebody has to get down to it and be a bit more practical.

There can be some quite serious money involved here so it is important to see what you actually get for it.

I've already put my money where my mouth is.

Your turn.
I only have Canon L-series long lenses and a Sony RX10 IV, so I can't help with that, but I agree it would be good to see real world examples taken using the specific hardware in question:

6D + 75-300 (i.e. OP's current setup)

80D or similar + 150-600 (i.e. an effective DSLR setup for this application)

P900

P1000

It would be a miracle if anybody had all of those, suitable viewing conditions, and the time to take some test shots - but very interesting if it were possible.
 
Thank you for your pithy comment. Point well made.

As I said, a Canon 5D plus 50-500 adds up to a lot of moolah.

Ought to produce a reasonable result.

The man was asking how he could get the longest reach for the least outlay.
Wrong, see below. He was asking for a lens for his 6D.
Initially yes but see the OP's second post.
You are right about the second post.

Then I will repeat what I said earlier. This 3,000mm on the P&S is an illusion. It compares to much less on a larger sensor camera then cropped. Here is how 756mm eq. looks like (from dpreview):



8602844676.jpeg


One can get a similar or even better 16mp image from 200mm FF cropped and resized.

The FZ1000 is a much better option, for less.
 
Thank you for your pithy comment. Point well made.

As I said, a Canon 5D plus 50-500 adds up to a lot of moolah.

Ought to produce a reasonable result.

The man was asking how he could get the longest reach for the least outlay.
Wrong, see below. He was asking for a lens for his 6D.
Initially yes but see the OP's second post.
You are right about the second post.

Then I will repeat what I said earlier. This 3,000mm on the P&S is an illusion.
It's no more an illusion than any "FF FOV expressed as focal length" for any other small sensor camera. The fact that it goes out to "3000mm" doesn't make it any more fictional than any less bold of a claim, like the FZ1000's "400mm", which is half as exaggerated, but still an "illusion" of focal length. If we use these focal length illusions as a proxy for angular resolution in an average sensor pixel count in world where almost every camera is in the 16-50MP range (especially if we take the square roots of those MPs into account), with 16 to 20MP as typical, they serve a rough purpose that is not as much an illusion as it is an inaccuracy that needs a little adjustment. Whether it is often mentioned or not, pixels per square degree of perspective *is* an imaging parameter, and higher contrast can not be substituted for it, except in the eyes of an optically naive person who can't tell the difference between real, natural detail, and acuity artifacts, and loses track of scale.

It compares to much less on a larger sensor camera then cropped. Here is how 756mm eq. looks like (from dpreview):
8602844676.jpeg


One can get a similar or even better 16mp image from 200mm FF cropped and resized.
Why would you use a "756mm" image in a discussion of "3000mm"? I have already said, and I think that it is generally considered a given that less ambitious "effective focal lengths" are not as impressive with small sensors, because better can be done with larger sensors, if your AOV is wide enough. The claim is that passing "1000mm", and going way up to "3000mm", the P1000 does something very difficult to emulate with larger sensors' current wasteful, enormous pixels, unless you use ridiculously rare and humongous lenses, or stacks of TCs.

Illusion or not, "3000mm" on the P1000 is 16MP crop mode on a FF sensor with 500+ MP with a 539/8. Yes, there is diffraction, and the pixel level views will not be the sharpest you have seen, but that is mostly a problem of having a 68mm entrance pupil, combined with high angular magnification, NOT the P1000's lens or sensor.

The FZ1000 is a much better option, for less.
Maybe at the relatively wider angles of view (the FZ1000 is probably much better at "400m", especially if you use a larger entrance pupil for shallower DOF), but no, the FZ1000 can't do what the P1000 can do at the illusory "3000mm", except impress optically naive eyes with sharper pixelation with a less-magnified subject. The 6D with a 600mm lens, and the FZ1000 at max zoom, are a joke compared to any 16MP "3000mm" with a small sensor, for any area of interest within the P1000's narrower AOV.

You seem to speak as if photographers only aim at getting "the best photos" of anything at all, to impress as a platonic "Image(tm)", and the best photo of a *thing* of interest has no value.

--
John
 
Thank you for your pithy comment. Point well made.

As I said, a Canon 5D plus 50-500 adds up to a lot of moolah.

Ought to produce a reasonable result.

The man was asking how he could get the longest reach for the least outlay.
Wrong, see below. He was asking for a lens for his 6D.
Initially yes but see the OP's second post.
You are right about the second post.

Then I will repeat what I said earlier. This 3,000mm on the P&S is an illusion.
It's no more an illusion than any "FF FOV expressed as focal length" for any other small sensor camera.
Correct. That does not make the statement wrong.
It compares to much less on a larger sensor camera then cropped. Here is how 756mm eq. looks like (from dpreview):

8602844676.jpeg


One can get a similar or even better 16mp image from 200mm FF cropped and resized.
Why would you use a "756mm" image in a discussion of "3000mm"?
Because it was easy to find and because my statement was not about 3000mm only. Also, because this can be directly compared to 800mm on FF and one can see that it cannot beat even 400mm upsized.
I have already said, and I think that it is generally considered a given that less ambitious "effective focal lengths" are not as impressive with small sensors, because better can be done with larger sensors, if your AOV is wide enough. The claim is that passing "1000mm", and going way up to "3000mm", the P1000 does something very difficult to emulate with larger sensors' current wasteful, enormous pixels, unless you use ridiculously rare and humongous lenses, or stacks of TCs.
This is not what I said. I said that 3000mm is an illusion, which it is. BTW, somebody posted a horrible moon shot which is easy to beat by an upsized 400-500mm FF one.
Illusion or not, "3000mm" on the P1000 is 16MP crop mode on a FF sensor with 500+ MP with a 539/8.
It is actually 4.3-539. So?
Yes, there is diffraction, and the pixel level views will not be the sharpest you have seen, but that is mostly a problem of having a 68mm entrance pupil, combined with high angular magnification, NOT the P1000's lens or sensor.
The FZ1000 is a much better option, for less.
Maybe at the relatively wider angles of view (the FZ1000 is probably much better at "400m", especially if you use a larger entrance pupil for shallower DOF), but no, the FZ1000 can't do what the P1000 can do at the illusory "3000mm", except impress optically naive eyes with sharper pixelation with a less-magnified subject.
The FZ1000 is a much better camera overall. I was not fixated on the 3000mm "reach". You get higher quality images overall which are actually pleasure to look at, most of the time, whatever the reach.
 
Last edited:
Let’s face it guys.

Gaul has got it right.

If he wants to sit at the bottom of his mountain and take pictures of the top, then he needs maximum reach and the Sony doesn’t have it. Nikon has. Cheaply.

However, in the normal way of things, photography is mostly ephemeral.

In other words, we don’t sit all day staring at a single photograph.

Even a keeper goes in the skip eventually.

What this forum is about is known as a hobby.

For fun.

I’ve got a 23 mile shot of a steelworks from the P900, which is quite recognisable. Do I sit and look at it all day?

No. I get on with something else. I did the shot merely to see if it could be done. It was. Job done.

You know, academia is OK for academics.

But hardly needed here.

Choice of cameras is up to the guy doing the buying.

Depth of pocket invariably comes into it.

Ergo Gaul and his initial query.

I’m with him. Cash prudence is always a good thing.

Rat.

Let’s face it guys.

Gaul has got it right.

If he wants to sit at the bottom of his mountain and take pictures of the top, then he needs maximum reach and the Sony doesn’t have it. Nikon has. Cheaply.

However, in the normal way of things, photography is mostly ephemeral.

In other words, we don’t sit all day staring at a single photograph.

Even a keeper goes in the skip eventually.

What this forum is about is known as a hobby.

For fun.

I’ve got a 23 mile shot of a steelworks from the P900, which is quite recognisable. Do I sit and look at it all day?

No. I get on with something else. I did the shot merely to see if it could be done. It was. Job done.

You know, academia is OK for academics.

But hardly needed here.

Choice of cameras is up to the guy doing the buying.

Depth of pocket invariably comes into it.

Ergo Gaul and his initial query.

I’m with him. Cash prudence is always a good thing.

Rat.
 
You know, academia is OK for academics.

But hardly needed here.

Choice of cameras is up to the guy doing the buying.
+1

Some guys may reply with "Wrong!" followed by long texts with random numbers.

I know better -- I laugh. :D

Happy New Year!
 
You know, academia is OK for academics.

But hardly needed here.

Choice of cameras is up to the guy doing the buying.
+1

Some guys may reply with "Wrong!" followed by long texts with random numbers.

I know better -- I laugh. :D

Happy New Year!
Well, the manufacturers do not need to tell you the truth - they just need you to motivate you to buy stuff.
 
You know, academia is OK for academics.

But hardly needed here.

Choice of cameras is up to the guy doing the buying.
+1

Some guys may reply with "Wrong!" followed by long texts with random numbers.

I know better -- I laugh. :D

Happy New Year!
Well, the manufacturers do not need to tell you the truth - they just need you to motivate you to buy stuff.
I laugh harder. :D
 
Some guys may reply with "Wrong!" followed by long texts with random numbers.

I know better -- I laugh. :D
IOW, you can just believe whatever you want and shut everything else out, and not bother to learn when the numbers fit and are practically meaningful, and when they don't fit and are not practically meaningful.

It doesn't matter what you opinions or tastes are; a P1000 can do some things better than a large-sensor camera with practical, available lenses with AF, and visa-versa. If one specifies exact needs, then one need not engage in messy overall ranking nonsense where subjectivity over-simplifies products.
 
Some guys may reply with "Wrong!" followed by long texts with random numbers.

I know better -- I laugh. :D
IOW, you can just believe whatever you want and shut everything else out, and not bother to learn when the numbers fit and are practically meaningful, and when they don't fit and are not practically meaningful.

It doesn't matter what you opinions or tastes are; a P1000 can do some things better than a large-sensor camera with practical, available lenses with AF, and visa-versa. If one specifies exact needs, then one need not engage in messy overall ranking nonsense where subjectivity over-simplifies products.
I did not realize that laughing would get such patronizing feedback.

And I am neither the far-mountain OP nor the P900 moon guy! :D
 
Last edited:

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top