Need advice and lots of info on a good lens / camera solution

M43, good Leica optics, and you can order it from elsewhere. Leica was selling it itself under the name "Leica Typ 109" if I recall correctly. From my experience, these top-range Panasonic compacts (which Leica sell too, but Leica-branded) are very solid and dust-resistant.
 
I don't know. That isn't exactly apples to apples. The Fujifilm xe3 is newer and excels in areas that the Panasonic gx80/85 does not. then again the gx is mostly better than the xe2.
OK, you make a fair point, Golfhov. To clarify, I am going for "bang for the buck," here... i.e. the best value system for someone on a restricted budget. I am doing this because the OP mentioned concerns about Fujifilm being "pricey". So he does not seem to have a huge budget to spend.

You are right, it is fairer to use a cheaper Fujifilm camera in my comparison. The older XE2 instead of the newer and pricier XE3. So that would take about £300 off my Fujifilm total, giving us about £1,500 cost for the Fujifilm camera and 3 lenses vs about £900 for an equivalent Micro 43 set. Despite the reduction in Fujifilm costs, £600 cheaper is still a very substantial price advantage in favour of Micro 43.
The larger (Fuji vs Micro 43) sensor those aren't equivelant lenses. You can dice it up any way you want but the Fuji all have about a stop advantage. If a stop deosn't matter to you then you can also get the xe3 with just the 2.8-4 zoom around the same price and have everything covered...

...he (the OP) also said he didn't want a lot of lenses so why you are recommending a bag of primes that starts narrower than his cell phone i find odd
It is true that the Fujifilm sensor has an advantage in low light at ISOs over 1,600. But this is only for moving subjects. The IBIS of Micro 43 gives it the strong advantage for shooting still subjects like landscapes and cityscapes in low light. So both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.

I used the three prime lenses for my listed price comparison in response to the poster Stesinou. He claimed that these were the "best bang for the buck" mirrorless purchases...I wanted to prove how much more expensive Fujifilm is, as compared to Micro 43.

And no, I don't think we can compare the long f4 end of a Fujifilm zoom against the light gathering power and bokeh of an Olympus 45mm f1.8 prime lens. The Olympus is clearly superior in these respects.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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Your argument about "value" will always fall in the eye of the beholder. I own a 1" camera. I own a ff camera with expensive glass. They both represent "values" to me but do very different things. I also agree with you that 4/3 can be "value"
What I am saying is not subjective. It is an objective fact that Micro 43 is the smallest, lightest and most affordable "live" interchangable lens camera system on the market.

It is also undeniable that M43 is a system capable of delivering fully professional results, as proven by Jay Dickman's multiple National Geographic assignments.

https://www.jaydickman.net/National-Geographic/Around-the-World-2013/3

That is surely a reasonable benchmark of a "good enough" and flexible enough camera system for a beginner to intermediate photographer to invest in and to grow within?

Again, there is no current smaller interchangable lens system being produced. Even when the Nikon 1" was a "live" system, the cameras were not designed with high end enthusiasts or professional users in mind.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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Your argument about "value" will always fall in the eye of the beholder. I own a 1" camera. I own a ff camera with expensive glass. They both represent "values" to me but do very different things. I also agree with you that 4/3 can be "value"
What I am saying is not subjective. It is an objective fact that Micro 43 is the smallest, lightest and most affordable "live" interchangable lens camera system on the market.
That I never argued. It is YOUR perception of value.

And......that statement is partly incorrect. It is the cheapest in mirrorless but the APSC dslr game is the cheapest total system.
It is also undeniable that M43 is a system capable of delivering fully professional results, as proven by Jay Dickman's multiple National Geographic assignments.

https://www.jaydickman.net/National-Geographic/Around-the-World-2013/3
Jay dickman knows what he is doing. It proves that the perception of value is in the eye of the beholder. He is also paid by Olympus. So he not only can use the system well he doesn't have to think about the value part of the equation when using the pro 1.2 lenses that turn the value system for many upside down.
That is surely a reasonable benchmark of a "good enough" and flexible enough camera system for a beginner to intermediate photographer to invest in and to grow within?
And I don't dscount that it may be. So may other things. The Fujis with the kit may represent a better value to some vs the more expensive zooms in 4/3. Or apsc DSLR. Or Sony APSC, or even now FF cameras are somewhat in the dsicussion
Again, there is no current smaller interchangable lens system being produced. Even when the Nikon 1" was a "live" system, the cameras were not designed with high end enthusiasts or professional users in mind.
Correct. There was also the Pentax Q. Which was small but not seriously supported.
 
I love Fujifilm but there is no denying it is about TWICE AS EXPENSIVE as Micro 43!
Don't you think that the price difference somehow reflects the value difference, too? ;)
Fujifilm will be better in some respects than Micro 43 (though the IBIS of Micro 43 keeps it very competitive!)...but Micro 43 is still a full and flexible professional level system...and Fujifilm is nowhere near TWICE as good. So as far as "Bang for the buck" value goes, Micro 43 HAS to win this category in mirrorless.
On the whole I agree, you are correct - M43 total cost is much less compared to Fuji. Though, eGlobal Center tells us (they ship to the UK)
I could also reduce the cost of Micro 43 by shopping on the grey market. But the fact is, many people prefer to avoid grey market goods. Many want an official warranty, and would rather avoid the potential hassle of dealing with an overseas vendor.

If a UK shopper wanted to go grey market for a camera or lenses, I would recommend Hdew. They are long established, and send all goods from within the UK. With Hdew, any repairs are also carried out within the UK.

Whereas with E-global, your camera has to be sent back and forth to Hong Kong, if there is any problem, and personally, I would rather avoid the hassle of that.
Outside the warranty period, I will just bring the camera to the repair shop, and nobody will care. The camera was sold elsewhere in the world, it may have been changing a few owners also in different places in the world, so what? The camera was not stolen from the Fuji plant, it's serial number is stored somewhere in the database as "sold legally".
I believe that some repair shops will not work on grey market cameras once they are out of warranty.
 
What I am saying is not subjective. It is an objective fact that Micro 43 is the smallest, lightest and most affordable "live" interchangable lens camera system on the market.
That I never argued. It is YOUR perception of value.
OK, fair enough then...there are likely to be subjective aspects to a term like "value". But I still maintain that OVERALL we can say when something will be widely classed as better value.

For example, several months ago, the Olympus EM10-II was £235 and the Olympus EM5-II was £650. Now, the EM5-II is technically the better camera, but few would disagree that the EM10-II was the better value at those prices.
And......that statement is partly incorrect. It (M43) is the cheapest in mirrorless but the APSC dslr game is the cheapest total system.
You're right, Canon APS-C DSLR can narrowly scrape in a bit cheaper than M43. I should have specified "M43 is the most affordable system in mirrorless". Micro 43 is unquestionably the smallest and lightest camera system, though.
Jay dickman knows what he is doing. It proves that the perception of value is in the eye of the beholder. He is also paid by Olympus. So he not only can use the system well he doesn't have to think about the value part of the equation when using the pro 1.2 lenses that turn the value system for many upside down.
Jay Dickman could afford to shoot with any system he chooses. But he chooses Micro 43 because he says the light weight, live composite, IBIS, etc helps him get shots he would otherwise miss.
That is surely a reasonable benchmark of a "good enough" and flexible enough camera system for a beginner to intermediate photographer to invest in and to grow within?
And I don't dscount that it may be. So may other things. The Fujis with the kit may represent a better value to some vs the more expensive zooms in 4/3. Or apsc DSLR. Or Sony APSC, or even now FF cameras are somewhat in the dsicussion
As I admitted above, there is very likely an element of subjectivity in choosing gear. And for a few, the £650 EM5-II may represent better value than the £235 EM10-II. But OVERALL, the great majority would agree that the EM10-II was by far the better value at those prices.
You can beat the good enough drum all you want. It will never change that 4/3 isn't good enough for everyone.
And I never claimed that it was!

But Micro 43 is the most affordable and ultra portable system in mirrorless. M43 is highly capable, excelling at travel and street photography. It boasts good enough image quality AND system flexibility to deliver multiple National Geographic assignments. It is more than capable enough for the large majority of photographers.

But of course it is not the best at everything. No camera system is! Micro 43 is not as good for fast moving sports or moving subjects in low light as some other systems. And I have always stressed this to people needing those attributes.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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You've gotten a lot of advice. Here's mine.

If all you are shooting is landscapes and you want the most affordable way to get the best pics (tremendous per pixel detai)l:

1. Buy any brand of full frame or APS-C camera at least 3 years old. Get a used or refurbished one to save money. Better if it has 24 or more megapixels. E.g. Sony A6000 or Nikon D7200 or Sony A7 or Canon 6D.

2. Get the cheapest sharp lens available (zoom or prime is fine), just find the sharpest. Usually manual focus primes are in this category but some autofocus lenses are as well.

3. Get a tripod and use it

4. Set up your lens to its sharpest edge-to-edge aperture at the desired focal length for your shot (usually around f5.6-f8 but may vary) in aperture priority mode at base ISO

5. Set your manual focus to the hyperfocal distance (look for hyperfocal distance calculator on Google)

6. Remotely trigger your shutter (or use 2 second delay)

Check the results. Tweak your focus a bit and shoot again if you like. Repeat.

Shoot RAW or RAW+JPEG and process afterwards, stacking the images if your scene is still, for even sharper and less noisy results.
 
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Nope, i didn't mean to say my smartchy photos are perfect, but yes, by now i take pics mostly from distances i know i wont end up disappointed when i check them on the big screen in full resolution - but i am saying that is exactly what i am trying to find, a camera and lens solution that leaves me without disappointment when i look at the pics on the big screen in full size, no matter if i took a close up of a flower, a portrait or a distant landscape with stark contrasts!!
Well I am not one to tell people how to use their photos.....
Normally i am not so excited about those studio comparison pics because .. well, they are mainly one dimensional,
It is practically impossible to account for everything. Even that studio scene can be slightly swayed by the lens used and colors
but the examples you linked me to are actually very interesting nonetheless.

Interesting to see the file size of the crop sensor Canon is larger than the FF Sony.
That is weird.......I am on my cell so I am curious about that one
Interesting my instinctive reaction to the FF Sony vs. APS-C Canon, for whatever reason i found the Canon to be clearer, more distinct than the slightly fuzzy Sony, strange??
Huh. In "theory" at base they should both be close as they have the same resolution. Where they should start looking dissimilar is when they get away from the base ISO. Jpeg less so than RAW because JPEG will be dependant on Tuesday processing
Interesting the sponge, here we see the very sample of what i initially brought up. Look at the sponge taken with the iPhoneX, what on earth is that, some mushy patchwork, clearly and exactly what i meant trees look like in the distance with pretty much all small sensors, just not enough light or whatever on the to small pixels to understand what it is they are looking at, could be a medium baked pancake or the scalp of a poodle or maybe an exotic Asian dish :-)
On cell so I don't see. There are limitations to tiny sensors. Inforget the factor but it so much smaller than a 1" or bigger camera that it really struggles in low light and with fine detail
The 2 big sensor had less problems with the sponge, the Canon is not really clearer per se but looks a bit clearer due to a brighter tone.
They use default JPEGs. I don't know if you were looking at RAW. Default there too so some of the engines handle color a little differently. You can correct but they don't.
What are we learning from this, can you point my nose to it (besides of the obvious, no small sensor can show enough detail)??
Those are really small crops. Outside of throwing a hi res sensor like a hi res or medium format camera in the mix there is just a realistic limit to what a standard sensor and lens can do.

You can add just a bit with processing BUT there are limitations to how "sharp" you can make something til you introduce other problems.

Someone else said zoomed stitched panoramas. That is another way to get crazy high detail BUT you cannot have any movement between frames and it is an easy thing to do but not easy to do well

I apologise for not really being able to relate better. I feel like you are really fixated on a minor detail while missing the big picture. ANY camera from a 1" fixed and up is easily gonna give you improvements and possibly a bit of range VS a single fixed lens. After that it is going to be up to you to learn techniques and editing to maximize your captures.

Good luck
 
Oh, of course, you have a point there, no moving parts that suck in dust or humidity - no dirt on the sensor (and neither on the lenses glass somewhere inside). One more point for a fixed lens i think!!

But which one, my next step, search for stuff like "sharpest Canon (or Nikon or Fuji) lenses".
 
Yes, i recall having reviewed a bundle of this combination, Panasonic body with a Leica lens, great photos - but with many of them when i checked the exif notes it turns out some post editing was done, which always makes it more difficult to judge what you get straight out of camera.

Leica compacts are easy to get in germany, even on big airports like FRA, but A: still very expensive aka exclusive and, no support in a country like Brazil so i will have to go for something they actually sell and repair here.
 
Indeed, J.D's photos would speak for the MFT system if they were all shot with such.
 
That is pretty much THE point in all of this!!

That's why info and more info, research and more research BEFORE buying is so important.

Of course, if i were in Canada or the US again i could try the old buy and return within 10 days system, this way i could get hands on testing of anything i think i could enjoy and simply return whatever isn't my cup of tea - but even in these countries they would eventually start asking me why i bring back so many purchased cameras or lenses :-(

P.S. just a note on the side, there is actually something else besides of image sharpness or color rendering or pixel counts.

It's simply the overall look of the output. Does the photo give me that 2-for-1 impression (you see exactly what you shot PLUS a composition thereof that can also be viewed in a different way, kind of like with paintings, you see a landscape plus a composition that contains something like a face or anything else created by your fantasy from just looking at it.

But okay, that would be the icing on the cake.... a camera / lens combination with character photo output even if a novice presses the shutter button.

On this note, there is a bit something i was hoping for but have not yet found in this thread -does any of you have (or know of) some albums on Flickr that show photos from a certain camera in combination with a certain lens that YOU especially enjoy??

By "certain" i mean the cameras i mentioned as base:

Canon SL2 or 200D

Fujifilm x-t20 or there about

maybe a Nikon in this price range (less than say 800 USD for just the body alone)

And on lenses by certain i literally mean whatever as i am not yet experienced enough, the only lens i know to be pretty sharp is that said Olympus 40mm or so for MFT's, for larger sensor bodies i only read that fixed lenses are generally speaking sharper (but maybe also less fun??)
 
After watching this
(plus a number of other reviews i am sold on a lens like this!!

I guess such a lens would not be useable on a Canon EOS Sl2 body but only on Fuji's, or clearly better overall on Fuji's than on a Canon??

The 23 mm is a tad to wide for my taste.
 
On this note, there is a bit something i was hoping for but have not yet found in this thread -does any of you have (or know of) some albums on Flickr
I don't use Flickr, sorry. If you are not limited by Flickr only, you can look at photos i.e. here or on my facebook. Recent photos/albums are mostly from X-T20.
that show photos from a certain camera in combination with a certain lens that YOU especially enjoy??
X-T20 is very good with XF 23mm f/2 and with Samyang 8mm fisheye, too. With old manual SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 adapted form M42, it makes a very nice portrait combo.
By "certain" i mean the cameras i mentioned as base:

Canon SL2 or 200D
On my own, personal and highly biased opinion, its ancient 9-point AF from 2004 is somehow outdated after 14 years so it should probably be omitted...
Fujifilm x-t20 or there about

maybe a Nikon in this price range (less than say 800 USD for just the body alone)

And on lenses by certain i literally mean whatever as i am not yet experienced enough, the only lens i know to be pretty sharp is that said Olympus 40mm or so for MFT's, for larger sensor bodies i only read that fixed lenses are generally speaking sharper (but maybe also less fun??)
No matter what the sensor size is, the general rule says that primes are faster and sharper than zooms (and often faster AF, too). There some known exceptions where the best pro-grade zooms are on par with primes of the corresponding focal range, but that's in the next price league.
 
Very good those pics at viewbug!!

Not as pixelpeeper friendly as Flickr though, but i guess you need some royalty protection for your work which they seem to be able to provide with smaller image sizes.
 
After watching this
(plus a number of other reviews i am sold on a lens like this!!
The "lightweight" Fuji body (I prefer X-E3 but if the tilt screen matters - X-T20 is identical sensor) and XF 35mm f/2.0 is a perfect kit to start with. If both body and lens are silver, this looks classy.

But don't forget to add a quality metal lens hood to XF 35/2
with the bayonet(!) mount - either JJC one, or differently shaped JJC, or original Fuji metal hood, or I think JJC and Haoge are just different labels of the same (identical) hoods, I have one labeled Haoge and the identical one labeled JJC and couldn't find any difference. Of course, if the lens is black then you use a black hood but for a silver lens, the silver hood is the best.
I guess such a lens would not be useable on a Canon EOS Sl2 body but only on Fuji's,
No, it could not be used on Canon even in theory.

For Canon EF (and maybe EF-S, too?) lenses, you may adapt them to Fuji but I am not sure about AF-capable adaptors. I have heard that for SONY A7 cameras there are some working adapters for EF lenses which make AF actually usable.
The 23 mm is a tad to wide for my taste.
It's a matter of personal sight and habit. My preference is the pair of XF 23mm and XF 50mm, though my XF 50mm is been delayed. Maybe later I will collect all three f/2 "Fujicron" lenses, who knows.

Also look at SONY a6500 - very interesting camera (has IBIS) and there are good 35mm lenses available for E mount, too (look also for third-party offers, Sigma shines there).

Another interesting idea is to build your kit around the M43 Panasonic GX85 body. Many nice features which Fuji lacks. Good fast primes are available, too. The only problem is the 2x crop factor compared to Fuji's 1.5x crop. Overall the comparable M43 gear set will cost at about 1/2-2/3 of the Fuji gear set price.
 
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Indeed, J.D's photos would speak for the MFT system if they were all shot with such.
All of Jay Dickman's published photographs have been shot with Micro 43/Olympus since 2003.

Fifteen years...that's an awful lot of National Geographic assignments - shot in conditions ranging from deserts to the Arctic, from rainforests to underwater.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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Indeed, J.D's photos would speak for the MFT system if they were all shot with such.
All of Jay Dickman's published photographs have been shot with Micro 43/Olympus since 2003.
M4/3 didn't exist in 2003. 2003 is when Olympus started paying him to shoot with 4/3. 4/3 went extinct and he was dropping the sales pitch to the end
Fifteen years...that's an awful lot of National Geographic assignments - shot in conditions ranging from deserts to the Arctic, from rainforests to underwater.
The guy is 70 and spent most of those assignments shooting film. National Geographic even required film submissions during the rise of digital.
--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 

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