DPR Review of EOS R vs Reality

What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
Did they also mention that while on paper Sony has 1080p with 120fps, the video is soft and auto focus is not that good?
Hows the AF on the Eos R at 120fps? ;)
It is flat out amazing, have you tried it? Not only will it blow your socks off but it will set them on fire as they fly away.
i have not tried it, but everything I have read and seen is that the R does not AF at 120fps. Is that incorrect?
No, you are correct -- it does NOT AF at 120 FPS. I was just poking fun at the question. I was actually thinking of 4k where it doesn't even offer that frame rate. I have the camera but don't do much video. IMO, if you are serious about video, there are better cameras out there than the "R" for video use.
Did they mention that Sony only has 100 MBPS in 4K that falls apart under heavy grading? Did they mention that compared to other cameras, it overheats more quickly while recording 4k? That when shooting in bright conditions, the LCD screen is so poor that it makes exposure simulation practically useless.

They also compared the video quality of the EOS R to the fuji X-T3. According to Fuji's own spec sheet, in 4k video mode there is a 20 minute recording limit when shooting 60fps and 30 minute when shooting 30fps. But yet very few reviewers talks about this limitation. Can you imagine if Canon did such a thing? There would be endless reviews about how Canon "cripples" their cameras.

I am not saying that these negative factors make Sony a bad camera. I am just using this as examples of how biased reviewers are against Canon.
 
  1. wmlele wrote:
I am not saying that these negative factors make Sony a bad camera. I am just using this as examples of how biased reviewers are against Canon.
The very example of this, like I said on another branch of this thread, is the "choosy charger" thing.

Canon did absolutely the right thing. They correctly implemented the industry standard for charging devices over USB. The same industry standard used by Google, Apple, Dell and major vendors on their devices, and still somewhat ignored by manufacturers of cheap "compatible" devices.

Yet, it appear under the minuses. I get the feeling that just not doing what other trendy vendors are doing is a minus, no matter what it is.
Because the paid professional reviewers of DPR knows best when it comes to chargers? 😁
apparently yes... the A7III for example will take any USB-C charger (though of course with a subpar one waiting for it to charge is like watching pain dry 😝)
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Prehaps you are right but it really looks like they did that because they want to sell chargers for 190$.
Since they implemented the industry standard, you don't really have to buy theirs, do you? Actually, since they implemented the industry standard, you can use any charger implementing said standard, and be reasonably sure it will work, and not damage the camera.
Not really. From the review...
The EOS R has a USB C socket and can charge the battery over it. It doesn't work with all chargers and Canon recommends the use of its own PD-E1 USB adapter, which will set you back $190 if you pay list price for it.

The camera appears to have a protection feature (or possibly a bug) by which it won't charge over USB if you've previously connected it to a non-compatible charger. As such, we recommend removing and re-inserting the battery to reset it, before testing a USB C charger.
the emphasized portion is why they criticized the USB charging implementation.
Yes likely really. Not all "chargers" properly support/implement the USB PD protocol. Some just have power without PD. This like classic USB. Canon seems to want/require PD.
 
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What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
Did they also mention that while on paper Sony has 1080p with 120fps, the video is soft and auto focus is not that good?
Hows the AF on the Eos R at 120fps? ;)
It is flat out amazing, have you tried it? Not only will it blow your socks off but it will set them on fire as they fly away.
i have not tried it, but everything I have read and seen is that the R does not AF at 120fps. Is that incorrect?
No, you are correct -- it does NOT AF at 120 FPS. I was just poking fun at the question. I was actually thinking of 4k where it doesn't even offer that frame rate. I have the camera but don't do much video. IMO, if you are serious about video, there are better cameras out there than the "R" for video use.
You mean if you do 4K video. Most context I watch... YouTube, movies etc etc aren’t even in 4K. I dabbled in it for a bit and the power and space you need to do any editing in 4K... please.

I have often asked all these people who absolutely need it to show me something they made worth 4K and most can’t.

From those who are actually good at video and know what they are doing and talking about they rave about the bit rates they get with the canon camera. They point out that you can grade heavily without the files falling apart. They also point out that canon gives you better untampered video va the competition (like the Z produces over sharpened footage).

All in all as usual... though the C camera from canon don’t have all the features thrown in as some manufacturers, there is a reason why they are so well regarded.

But you know... if one HAS to have 4K there are plenty of other options out there.
Did they mention that Sony only has 100 MBPS in 4K that falls apart under heavy grading? Did they mention that compared to other cameras, it overheats more quickly while recording 4k? That when shooting in bright conditions, the LCD screen is so poor that it makes exposure simulation practically useless.

They also compared the video quality of the EOS R to the fuji X-T3. According to Fuji's own spec sheet, in 4k video mode there is a 20 minute recording limit when shooting 60fps and 30 minute when shooting 30fps. But yet very few reviewers talks about this limitation. Can you imagine if Canon did such a thing? There would be endless reviews about how Canon "cripples" their cameras.

I am not saying that these negative factors make Sony a bad camera. I am just using this as examples of how biased reviewers are against Canon.
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Does someone know, if there are somewhere in DPreview's site some kind instuctions about their ratings? What % is needed in silver or gold award in which categories? And which cameras are in the same categories? (M100 = 79% gold award, M6 = 80% silver award, M50 = 79% silver award?? I would think M50 with viewfinder, better controls and 4k would get better ratings than M100...)

I find these ratings quite messy. And it also seems that if camera is "over-priced", it will be "punished" in the rating. I think it's ok to mention if they think camera is over-priced, but it doesn't make that camera technically worse and that's why it shouldn't affect to rating.
"What % is needed in silver or gold award?" It doesn't work that way. It's whatever they "feel". The gold and silver, etc., don't correspond to any of the numbers.

The ratings are explained here:


... but they are an arbitrary mess. They don't pin down which cameras are in the same category or which time period is relevant for comparisons. It's all a moveable, amorphous, arbitrary mess.

And the notion of a "percentage" rating is false and misleading as there's no 100% standard against which any camera is judged. The numbers don't actually measure anything.

They say their main priority is image quality, but then the Sony A7III scores very high for image quality despite a striping flaw that directly affects image quality.
 
I've read the review and there is nothing they say that's actually incorrect, but when I saw the rating, wow, it doesn't even align with the review!
 
The other flawed logic these professional reviewers have is that they evaluate the camera based on a perspective of not being invested in a particular system.
Well, that's kind of a necessary aspect if your review is going to be applicable to the greatest number of people as well as to try and prevent bias (ie, be neutral or brand agnostic). The reader should read the review carefully and apply what they're reading to their own situation.

Also, DPR did in fact address Canon users specifically when they said:
Noogy, post: 61947063, member: 629438"]
It guess that is where they breach the line between decent-enough neutrality and downright advocacy. And when reviewers become advocates, they start to worry less about their credibility and focus more on how they prove themselves right.
Speaking of neutrality and advocacy (and I'll introduce the opposite: critic), given that you criticized DPR for not doing what they did do, what say you of your position towards DPR and also your position towards Canon? Where do you think you fall on the critic-to-neutral-to-advocate continuum?
Why are you defending the paid, professional reviewers like they're the most principled critiques?
I haven't defended anyone. What I've done is point out
  1. That to have a review which is applicable to the largest number of people that all reviewers must approach a camera, especially the first camera within a brand new mount, from a brand agnostic standpoint. After that approach, their determination was that this particular camera is best suited for someone who is buried deeply in the Canon ecosystem, who has no desire to leave, and for whom the positives and negatives, as they see them, are worth the asking price of the camera to someone who is interested in having a FF mirrorless body. Ironically, that is exactly who Canon stated should buy this camera. So, what's the problem?
  2. Find excerpts which demonstrate that they have already addressed your concerns.
I've sent direct criticisms to Canon, including what's wrong with their after sales service. That the 6DMII was an incremental update to the 6D, where the DPAF was the most major change. And the big file sizes of 5DMIV 4k video, plus that I had to pay for C log. My list is long. However, I am NOT the reviewer with an influence on customers. I shouldn't be under such scrutiny.
Again DPR mirrored (ha! I'm so pun-ny) exactly what Canon said in their launch and that is that this camera is best suited to someone who already has a bunch of Canon equipment and wants to add this body to their kit.
The polarized approach to addressing the audience is part of the problem. The polarizing perspective is not helping.
I disagree with your assessment of their approach. I wouldn't call it polarized at all. In fact, I would call it very inclusive in that they are trying to write a review which can be applicable to literally everyone. They tackled the camera buying public which is unaffiliated or with a different brand and they also tackled the Canon users.
Many users are on multiple or at least two systems.
I would disagree with this as well. The overwhelming vast majority of users of ilc cameras have an aps-c body with one or two lenses. That's it. Then, you get into the users who have more than one or two lenses and that's a substantially smaller percentage of the overall user base of ilc cameras. After that, you get into the users who have several lenses and more than one body which is, yet again, and even smaller percentage of users. Finally, you get into the user's who have multiple systems and this is a very small percentage of users. DPR forum users are not even remotely representative of the ilc user base at large.
To assume there is just the invested on Canon system vs those who are not reveals to me why their positions, statements, constructs are so skewed towards praising their preferred camera.
Strawman.
They should if they were to be mentally consistent present a review and score for those who are invested in the system or two systems. And include comments like if you're using the D850 then the Z7 makes more sense for you than our favorite self-proclaimed holy grail of digital photography called Sony. That however is not how they do their reviews. Butler for one cannot claim he is pointing to the best camera for people without a chosen system yet when he is not providing a score or rating for those who are invested in a system. To do one and not the other is what I call wanton advocacy.
That is not a logical argument. To accuse them of wanton advocacy, wouldn't they need to be treating the brands differently? For instance, wouldn't they need to do what you suggest for one brand and one brand only to the perceived detriment (or benefit) of all of the other brands? But, that's not how they do it. Every piece of equipment reviewed gets one score and that's it. That is the opposite of wanton advocacy.
 
I did watch Peter Gregg’s summary review, in which DPAF for video surprisingly failed using an EF 35mm. That matches some of what they call out here.

He speculates that the RF 35 might not have that issue, but didn’t have the lens to test.

It would be nice to know the cause. Those reports of sketchy DP focus are the only thing holding me back.
If I recall correctly Peter Gregg used a third party lens, not an EF lens.
An earlier video showed issues with a Sigma, but in his wrap-up for the R (which is largely positive) he uses a Canon EF 35mm 1.4, which loses focus on what looks like an easy target.

I'm not saying that's definitive; just another (somewhat surprising) data point that matches what's in DP's review.

Which, by the way, is maddeningly vague on this front. What lenses were they using? FF or crop? Was it based on that Chris/Jordan video where they used an EF-S lens not known for good video performance? Do the RF lenses not have an issue? Is it just some Canon EF mounts? Etc., etc.

A little due-diligence about their findings would be nice, rather than just a blanket statement that DPAF isn't at the level of previous iterations.
The real question you have to ask yourself, is how do you use the camera?

I know that my own usage cases are far different than what is typically depicted in these reviews nowadays. I don't sit back and let (or want) my camera to do the tracking of the subject all around the frame as I'm shooting. I would much rather track the subject myself by pointing the lens at what I am shooting, and let the camera's Servo AF maintain focus as I do the tracking. All of my sports, and birding, and people shooting is done that way. Even my macros and my own videos.

I think this is where a lot of the disconnect comes from, between what the photographers here are experiencing shooting in real life, and the kinds of test results that the reviewers are basing their judgments on.

I understand that it's not easy to perform real world (repeatable) tests that would involve the uncertainties that human tracking brings to the table, but it's also folly to weight so much of the testing on such a small usage case: plunking the camera down on a tripod in front of you and wanting the camera to maintain AF on what it "thinks" you would want to track. Great for VLoggers and the sort certainly, but let's also see what the camera's AF can do in the hands of a good photographer.

YMMV of course! :-)

R2

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Experience comes from bad judgment.
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Prehaps you are right but it really looks like they did that because they want to sell chargers for 190$.
Since they implemented the industry standard, you don't really have to buy theirs, do you? Actually, since they implemented the industry standard, you can use any charger implementing said standard, and be reasonably sure it will work, and not damage the camera.
If I remember correctly Canon does not recommend using third party chargers (even if they are 100% compilant to standard). They only recommend using their own. That means they are greedy or their solution is not implemented to industry standard.
Of course they do. They also recommend that you use their branded batteries as well (have you seen that cute commercial they run?). There are other valid reasons for doing this besides "Canon is greedy" which is that you know that it will work. What makes them greedy is that they charge close to $200 for something that should (and could) sell for $20. But they also sell the camera for $300 more than the competitors as well. Welcome to Canon -- if you don't like this well, there are other options.
True... and Sony charges more for lenses than their competitors. And generally Nikon lenses (on F mount at least) is generally more expensive too. They are businesses wirh different marketing strategies... to figure.
With some Sony cameras you don’t even get the battery charger. For instance with the a7iii you have to pay about $80 extra to have a dedicated charger.

Bottom line: all companies exist to make money and they all have their ways to do so. That should not shock anyone. Does anyone here work for free? Are you glad the company you work for makes profits?

Overall whether you buy Canon, Nikon, or Sony you are going to spend about the same to do the same functions.
 
What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
Did they also mention that while on paper Sony has 1080p with 120fps, the video is soft and auto focus is not that good?
Hows the AF on the Eos R at 120fps? ;)
It is flat out amazing, have you tried it? Not only will it blow your socks off but it will set them on fire as they fly away.
i have not tried it, but everything I have read and seen is that the R does not AF at 120fps. Is that incorrect?
No, you are correct -- it does NOT AF at 120 FPS. I was just poking fun at the question. I was actually thinking of 4k where it doesn't even offer that frame rate. I have the camera but don't do much video. IMO, if you are serious about video, there are better cameras out there than the "R" for video use.
You mean if you do 4K video. Most context I watch... YouTube, movies etc etc aren’t even in 4K. I dabbled in it for a bit and the power and space you need to do any editing in 4K... please.

I have often asked all these people who absolutely need it to show me something they made worth 4K and most can’t.

From those who are actually good at video and know what they are doing and talking about they rave about the bit rates they get with the canon camera. They point out that you can grade heavily without the files falling apart. They also point out that canon gives you better untampered video va the competition (like the Z produces over sharpened footage).

All in all as usual... though the C camera from canon don’t have all the features thrown in as some manufacturers, there is a reason why they are so well regarded.
A trend emerges Some reviewers don’t like Canon equipment yet many real world users, including a huge chunk of the pro market, use Canon and rate it very highly. In that case, who is more off base in their opinions?
But you know... if one HAS to have 4K there are plenty of other options out there.
Did they mention that Sony only has 100 MBPS in 4K that falls apart under heavy grading? Did they mention that compared to other cameras, it overheats more quickly while recording 4k? That when shooting in bright conditions, the LCD screen is so poor that it makes exposure simulation practically useless.

They also compared the video quality of the EOS R to the fuji X-T3. According to Fuji's own spec sheet, in 4k video mode there is a 20 minute recording limit when shooting 60fps and 30 minute when shooting 30fps. But yet very few reviewers talks about this limitation. Can you imagine if Canon did such a thing? There would be endless reviews about how Canon "cripples" their cameras.

I am not saying that these negative factors make Sony a bad camera. I am just using this as examples of how biased reviewers are against Canon.
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  1. wmlele wrote:
I am not saying that these negative factors make Sony a bad camera. I am just using this as examples of how biased reviewers are against Canon.
The very example of this, like I said on another branch of this thread, is the "choosy charger" thing.

Canon did absolutely the right thing. They correctly implemented the industry standard for charging devices over USB. The same industry standard used by Google, Apple, Dell and major vendors on their devices, and still somewhat ignored by manufacturers of cheap "compatible" devices.

Yet, it appear under the minuses. I get the feeling that just not doing what other trendy vendors are doing is a minus, no matter what it is.
Because the paid professional reviewers of DPR knows best when it comes to chargers? 😁
do you have any cancelled checks, photographic or video evidence of a clandestine financial transaction, or maybe a recording of a conversation where Barney agrees to accept crypto currency for a positive review coupled with hit jobs on the competition? If you do, I'll be the first in line to protest.

Or perhaps you're referring to the free trip to Hawaii that Canon provided them in exchange for a glowingly positive review?
 
Bottom line: all companies exist to make money and they all have their ways to do so. That should not shock anyone. Does anyone here work for free? Are you glad the company you work for makes profits?
Do not forget that accessories, especially consumables, batteries, etc, have a huge supply chain mark up compared to the product itself.
 
What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
To add, in their conclusion they rated Sony’s ergo much higher than Canon’s !

I have never seen such atrocious bias!

Shame on you, DPR.
I think DPR gave the "R" a fair review. However, at the end of the day, is nothing more than an opinion. What DPR do really well, IMO, is give you a good impression of what the camera does, it's specs and features and how those specs and features line up against the competition in it's class (however they define that). Outside of that, you can formulate your own opinion and ignore theirs, if you like.
 
What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
To add, in their conclusion they rated Sony’s ergo much higher than Canon’s !

I have never seen such atrocious bias!

Shame on you, DPR.
I think DPR gave the "R" a fair review. However, at the end of the day, is nothing more than an opinion. What DPR do really well, IMO, is give you a good impression of what the camera does, it's specs and features and how those specs and features line up against the competition in it's class (however they define that). Outside of that, you can formulate your own opinion and ignore theirs, if you like.
I'm not sure that's true. I don't think it's true. For example -

DPR scores the A7III significantly higher than the R for "ergonomics & handling" — that doesn't sound true at all. The R has a much better grip with room even for big lenses, better eye relief, a proper touch screen, a top LCD, a flip-out screen, an innovative control ring on the lenses, etc.

DPR scores the A7III slightly higher than the R for "viewfinder / screen rating" — despite the R having a much higher res viewfinder and better eye relief for eyeglass wearers. The R has proper touch screen functionality, while the Sony doesn't.

DPR scores the A7III much higher than the R for "metering & focus accuracy" — despite the R having industry leading low light AF. (Any why they lump metering in with focus accuracy is a mystery.)

DPR scores the A7III much higher than the R for "image quality" (raw & jpg) — despite the R having a higher resolution sensor with better color for portraits. Apparently those extreme 6-stop pushes are heavily weighted in their judgment of image quality, but Sony's striping problem that damages some pictures doesn't affect Sony's rating at all.

So, I disagree. I don't think they give a good impression of what the camera does. I think they've misjudged and misrated the camera.
 
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What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
Did they also mention that while on paper Sony has 1080p with 120fps, the video is soft and auto focus is not that good?
Hows the AF on the Eos R at 120fps? ;)
It is flat out amazing, have you tried it? Not only will it blow your socks off but it will set them on fire as they fly away.
i have not tried it, but everything I have read and seen is that the R does not AF at 120fps. Is that incorrect?
No, you are correct -- it does NOT AF at 120 FPS. I was just poking fun at the question. I was actually thinking of 4k where it doesn't even offer that frame rate. I have the camera but don't do much video. IMO, if you are serious about video, there are better cameras out there than the "R" for video use.
You mean if you do 4K video. Most context I watch... YouTube, movies etc etc aren’t even in 4K. I dabbled in it for a bit and the power and space you need to do any editing in 4K... please.

I have often asked all these people who absolutely need it to show me something they made worth 4K and most can’t.

From those who are actually good at video and know what they are doing and talking about they rave about the bit rates they get with the canon camera. They point out that you can grade heavily without the files falling apart. They also point out that canon gives you better untampered video va the competition (like the Z produces over sharpened footage).

All in all as usual... though the C camera from canon don’t have all the features thrown in as some manufacturers, there is a reason why they are so well regarded.
A trend emerges Some reviewers don’t like Canon equipment yet many real world users, including a huge chunk of the pro market, use Canon and rate it very highly. In that case, who is more off base in their opinions?
There is more to Canon and Nikon than the cameras (and lenses). Both of these companies have a long tradition of serving photographers with a broad breadth of products and excellent customer support. A lot of the DPR crowd think it is all about who has this feature or that feature but there is a lot more than that when your livelihood depends on the equipment.
But you know... if one HAS to have 4K there are plenty of other options out there.
Did they mention that Sony only has 100 MBPS in 4K that falls apart under heavy grading? Did they mention that compared to other cameras, it overheats more quickly while recording 4k? That when shooting in bright conditions, the LCD screen is so poor that it makes exposure simulation practically useless.

They also compared the video quality of the EOS R to the fuji X-T3. According to Fuji's own spec sheet, in 4k video mode there is a 20 minute recording limit when shooting 60fps and 30 minute when shooting 30fps. But yet very few reviewers talks about this limitation. Can you imagine if Canon did such a thing? There would be endless reviews about how Canon "cripples" their cameras.

I am not saying that these negative factors make Sony a bad camera. I am just using this as examples of how biased reviewers are against Canon.
 
I just read over review for kicks and giggles. I don't think they liked it. I'm pretty sure they knew they wouldn't ahead of time.

I can see why they wouldn't like it. They are a bunch of technocrats enamored with Sony type electronic gadgetry.

If I really wanted the camera to find the nearest eye on the nearest face for me, I might have a problem with the AF. If I were a speed shooter, I might have a problem with the FPS. I played around with the eye AF and tracking for the last couple of days. It is kind of fiddly and only works when people are fairly close. I don't know how much better the Sony is.

I love the low light focusing capability. That was my weak link in my personal event shooting, which is my second most important type of shooting. Low light capability of the sensor is not relevant, if you can't focus. I still just put the focus point on the subject and squeeze the shutter button, so I'm happy.

I don't get the ergonomic complaints at all. The R is comfortable to hold, and all the controls are easy to use without looking, for me anyway. Maybe they have such engrained muscle memory that they can't adjust to the new layout.

They said the smaller size of the Sony was and advantage. I couldn't disagree more. If they change the size at all, I say make it bigger. Lighter is OK. Smaller is not.

One of them said that the new RF lenses were so good that he would put up with almost anything to use them. I agree. I can't wait for the new UWA lenses.
A number of Sony users are more married to Canon lenses than to Sony or Zeiss lenses. When they use the Metabones adapter, the space between the adapter and the grip becomes so narrow. That to me is horrible ergonomics.

The other flawed logic these professional reviewers have is that they evaluate the camera based on a perspective of not being invested in a particular system. It guess that is where they breach the line between decent-enough neutrality and downright advocacy. And when reviewers become advocates, they start to worry less about their credibility and focus more on how they prove themselves right.
Objectivity is a state of perfection that doesn't exist in this world. Everyone has a bias, and that bias manifests itself in everything they do.

I invite anyone who disagrees with me on that to a poker game.

That's why it's important to read both positive and negative reviews of any product. The question for me is not are there flaws. The question is are the particular flaws going to make the camera something I don't like.

"The camera is too big". Good. I like my cameras big.

"The camera lacks electronic gadgetry and foo dads". Oh well. I'm a simple man. I do things in simple ways.

No one expected anything else from DPR. I'll still read their reviews. They are useful to me, because I know their bias.
1. I agree that everyone has biases,

2. I also find it valuable to hear opinions from those whose point of view are different than mine (sometimes even extremely different).

However, that doesn't mean I'm interested in reading everything that anyone has to say about any subject. I tend to pre-judge (sure, I have bias when pre-judging) what I read based on whether the point of view has useful context, expertise and relevance to the topic. I've now read enough of the DPR reviews to find that they provide very little real world relevance in their points of view because they don't use cameras the way my photography heroes use cameras and so their context is generally flawed (again, my opinion here). A baseball bat reviewer who constantly lauded features that none of the batting greats seem to care about would eventually become an un-interesting bat reviewer even if sometimes they preferred the same baseball bat that was the prevailing tool of the pros.

I use mostly Canon ILCs but have used Nikon and Sony fairly extensively. One of my best friends is primarily a Nikon user. He's a better photographer than I am (except for action because I've practiced more and less artistic talent is required). We exchange ideas all the time, and both recognize that our differing needs, our lens portfolios and our familiarity have a lot to do with our brand selections. It certainly doesn't occur to me to dismiss a point of view because it leads to a Sony, Nikon or Fuji preference.
 
What totally surprised me was the auto focus portion of the review. It is so completely different from my experience. Makes me wonder sometimes if these reviewers really spend enough time to use the right settings.

I used my 5DMIV and my EOS R over the weekend to do a stylized wedding shoot with a couple of professional models. My EOS R focused faster and more accurately than my 5DMIV. And I never really disliked the fact that the focusing points of the 5DMIV cannot go to the edges of the frame until I'm able to do that on the EOS R!
For more fun, read the A7III review's conclusions. None of these actual A7III cons made DPR's list of "What we don't like":
  • grip too close to body with some lenses
  • terrible menu system
  • no top-level LCD
  • no fully articulating flip out screen
  • drop in DR when shooting compressed raw in continuous mode
  • lack of classic aspect ratios like 1:1 and 4:3
  • small aps-c lens mount
  • total reliance on 3rd parties for adapters (with mixed results)
They actually mention the "updated menu system" in the list of "What we like" ... so Sony gets points just for improving on something that was terrible in prior cameras, never mind that it's still terrible.
To add, in their conclusion they rated Sony’s ergo much higher than Canon’s !

I have never seen such atrocious bias!

Shame on you, DPR.
I think DPR gave the "R" a fair review. However, at the end of the day, is nothing more than an opinion. What DPR do really well, IMO, is give you a good impression of what the camera does, it's specs and features and how those specs and features line up against the competition in it's class (however they define that). Outside of that, you can formulate your own opinion and ignore theirs, if you like.
I'm not sure that's true. I don't think it's true. For example -

DPR scores the A7III significantly higher than the R for "ergonomics & handling" — that doesn't sound true at all. The R has a much better grip with room even for big lenses, better eye relief, a proper touch screen, a top LCD, a flip-out screen, an innovative control ring on the lenses, etc.
Yea, that will depend on which camera they use more. I used an M5 for a year before buying the "R" so I felt right at home except they made the "R" big enough that it actually handles like a DSLR.

The Sony crowd has done a good job of convincing the community that Sony are leading the way on innovation, and that somehow Canon is "lagging behind". This is mostly "gaslighting" IMO. If you say something loud enough and repeat it often enough people start to believe it. The "R" is a pretty good first effort and it puts Canon in the game in a serious way which is what they needed to do. It will only get better from here. Both Canon and Nikon needed to make a *statement* that they were serious about the mirrorless space, and that they did.
DPR scores the A7III slightly higher than the R for "viewfinder / screen rating" — despite the R having a much higher res viewfinder and better eye relief for eyeglass wearers. The R has proper touch screen functionality, while the Sony doesn't.

DPR scores the A7III much higher than the R for "metering & focus accuracy" — despite the R having industry leading low light AF. (Any why they lump metering in with focus accuracy is a mystery.)
I don't shoot with Sony but in single shot AF mode (which I use the most) the "R" pretty much beats everything else that I have ever used. DPR seems to support that as well. I think what they are complaining about is in some of the other areas where it does not. I would agree there as well. I have tried the "eye focus" on my "R" and I think it could be better, for sure, but I haven't tried it on a Sony which is supposed to be really good.
DPR scores the A7III much higher than the R for "image quality" (raw & jpg) — despite the R having a higher resolution sensor with better color for portraits. Apparently those extreme 6-stop pushes are heavily weighted in their judgment of image quality, but Sony's striping problem that damages some pictures doesn't affect Sony's rating at all.

So, I disagree. I don't think they give a good impression of what the camera does. I think they've misjudged and misrated the camera.
I agree on most of this but It's only an opinion and we all know what they say about opinions :-).

To me, the best part about DPR's reviews is the test data and the comparison features. They have an on-line database and comparison tools that provide data going back maybe a decade. This allows one to compare something they are considering against something they are familiar with using test data that was gathered under the same test conditions with the same test setup etc. What's more, it uses actual photographs as opposed to DR curves and the like (which also have their place). This is invaluable, IMO.
 
I'm not sure that's true. I don't think it's true. For example -

DPR scores the A7III significantly higher than the R for "ergonomics & handling" — that doesn't sound true at all. The R has a much better grip with room even for big lenses, better eye relief, a proper touch screen, a top LCD, a flip-out screen, an innovative control ring on the lenses, etc.
Meanwhile, many prefer a tilting screen and no top LCD, no MFn bar, a switch for on/off - especially around the shutter button, a more naturally placed AF-ON button, a joystick, and extensive customization options. DPR gave the reasons why the ergonomics just don't work for the R.
DPR scores the A7III slightly higher than the R for "viewfinder / screen rating" — despite the R having a much higher res viewfinder and better eye relief for eyeglass wearers. The R has proper touch screen functionality, while the Sony doesn't.
Can't argue with you here. That's a mystery to me.
DPR scores the A7III much higher than the R for "metering & focus accuracy" — despite the R having industry leading low light AF. (Any why they lump metering in with focus accuracy is a mystery.)
The low-light AF is fantastic for the R and it's one of the reasons I'm following the system. But, there's much more to AF than just that. In most use cases, the A7III will at least equal the R and sometimes beat it, outside of the low light focusing.
DPR scores the A7III much higher than the R for "image quality" (raw & jpg) — despite the R having a higher resolution sensor
Resolution ain't everything.
with better color for portraits.
Wait. Hard stop. Please provide your data sources for this because I can provide two blinded tests showing people prefer Sony color science over Nikon and Nikon over Canon for portraits as well as another source saying Sony's cameras render more accurate colors as well.
Apparently those extreme 6-stop pushes are heavily weighted in their judgment of image quality, but Sony's striping problem that damages some pictures doesn't affect Sony's rating at all.
You've conveniently forgotten Canon's issue with shadows.
So, I disagree. I don't think they give a good impression of what the camera does. I think they've misjudged and misrated the camera.
I don't have an opinion on it personally. That said, I don't think they've subjected it to an unusual level of scrutiny compared to other cameras, nor have they been more or less objective about it than other cameras.

As I mentioned elsewhere, their conclusion is inline with Canon's recommendation which is, if you want a Canon FF mirrorless because you have a bunch of other Canon stuff, buy it. Otherwise, don't.

Given that conclusion, how can anyone object to a rating which is, according to DPR's camera scores & ratings , "very good to excellent"?

See:
The overall scores sit in the following very rough bands:
  • 0-40% Totally unacceptable. Run away
  • 41-50% Poor to Below average, avoid
  • 51- 60% At best average, treat with caution
  • 61-70% Average to Good
  • 71-80% Very Good to Excellent
  • Anything over 80%: Outstanding
I mean, this is a camera that even Canon doesn't think will attract users from outside of the Canon ecosystem. So, how could such a camera be "outstanding" and worthy of any kind of high-level recommendation (ie, silver or gold award)? Here's what they say about that...
  • In simple terms, a camera awarded a Silver is well worth considering whereas a Gold-rated one should be at or near the top of your list.
These awards are meant to be hard to achieve. If a new model raises the expected performance level for a class of camera, then that's the one you need to match to get a Gold. In other words, simply doing as well as a camera that got a Gold in the past may not be sufficient.
Canon (and DPR agrees) says that this camera is for Canon users. Inversely, that means that for everyone else, it's not worth considering. So, no silver award based on DPR criteria. Additionally, according to their criteria, it simply didn't live up to what other cameras (the A7III and Z6) offer when the camera is considered in its entirety.

Look, DPR isn't telling people it's a bad camera and not to buy it. They're saying that for non-Canon folks, there are better options and for Canon folks, it's a better option than the 6D Mark II (and that's how Canon priced it, too).

Does anyone here disagree with that? Does anyone think huge groups of people should sell their Nikon DSLR system and snag this? Should huge groups of people sell their Sony gear in favor of this? Should huge groups of people sell their 5D Mark IV or 1DX Mark II and snag the R? I ask because that's who this review is targeting: huge groups of people. DPR gave their caveat stating who they thought might want to consider the R. That should be sufficient for everyone, IMO (for the 90th time - because it's the same group Canon themselves said should buy it).
 
Does someone know, if there are somewhere in DPreview's site some kind instuctions about their ratings? What % is needed in silver or gold award in which categories? And which cameras are in the same categories? (M100 = 79% gold award, M6 = 80% silver award, M50 = 79% silver award?? I would think M50 with viewfinder, better controls and 4k would get better ratings than M100...)

I find these ratings quite messy. And it also seems that if camera is "over-priced", it will be "punished" in the rating. I think it's ok to mention if they think camera is over-priced, but it doesn't make that camera technically worse and that's why it shouldn't affect to rating.
"What % is needed in silver or gold award?" It doesn't work that way. It's whatever they "feel". The gold and silver, etc., don't correspond to any of the numbers.

The ratings are explained here:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4416254604/camera-scores-ratings-explained

... but they are an arbitrary mess. They don't pin down which cameras are in the same category or which time period is relevant for comparisons. It's all a moveable, amorphous, arbitrary mess.

And the notion of a "percentage" rating is false and misleading as there's no 100% standard against which any camera is judged. The numbers don't actually measure anything.
Ok, that's odd they like to do things that way. I think they can give those gold and silver awards how/who they want. But they should give up from those percentages in overall score, because they are misleading and worth nothing.
They say their main priority is image quality, but then the Sony A7III scores very high for image quality despite a striping flaw that directly affects image quality.
 

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