I'm wrong? How to reduce RX10m4 noise (examples)

titasas · Nov 4, 2018

Hello,

I'm new here and new with Sony RX10m4 Cyber-Shot camera.

I love sports and do some job with that. Some times I take ice hockey game picture. I know, that this game need not less 1/800 sec., but I can't use that, because even with ISO-3200 is a lot of noise in the picture and faces not very sharp.

I attached some examples from the ice hockey games. What can you advice to me?

I try use different settings, but don't know what is better.. Also, whats focus mode is best for sport photography? I use Flexible spot and turned on face detection.

Quality: EXTRA FINE

White balance: AUTO

ISO: auto 1200-6400

Jeff Greenberg · Nov 8, 2018

tbcass said:
Seems too blue.

=====

Agree. Purpley.
On my own laptop, not so much.
My primary interest is NR comparisons
to other NR apps, keeping in mind my
only NR skills are sliders, not layers or curves...

Offside · Nov 8, 2018

edform said:
Jeff Greenberg said:

http://photosphotos.net/EuroBasketball.DNG

How I'd normally process RAW in 2018 CC ACR.
ACR sliders only, no tools.
Would like to hear criticisms, don't hold back.
How would I clearly gain advantage via another RAW processor??
Side by side comparisons if possible.
Note: I don't know how to display RAW as a reduced image in thread...

Click to expand...

You can't. To do it I had to make screen grabs of the ARW files on a high resolution computer screen.

For comparisons, can you change your output to jpg as DNG files are a pain in the butt.

I opened your file in MS Photos and saved it again as a jpeg with no changes...

Jeff's version

Here is mine from PhotoLab 2...

Ed's version

Here's a version processed in ACR with "lots" of Luminance noise reduction (value 74).

Here's a smaller version processed with Neat Image trial (1600x1600 is the maximum allowed). I like the quality. Seems sharper. Image processing not the same as above.

Offside · Nov 8, 2018

edform said:
Jeff Greenberg said:

http://photosphotos.net/EuroBasketball.DNG

How I'd normally process RAW in 2018 CC ACR.
ACR sliders only, no tools.
Would like to hear criticisms, don't hold back.
How would I clearly gain advantage via another RAW processor??
Side by side comparisons if possible.
Note: I don't know how to display RAW as a reduced image in thread...

Click to expand...

You can't. To do it I had to make screen grabs of the ARW files on a high resolution computer screen.

For comparisons, can you change your output to jpg as DNG files are a pain in the butt.

I opened your file in MS Photos and saved it again as a jpeg with no changes...

Jeff's version

Here is mine from PhotoLab 2...

Ed's version

Downloaded a trial of Neat Image. Below is a 1600x1600 crop comparison of the original and Neat Image. I did brighten the images and added some Photoshop color adjustments. Not necessarily trying to match them equally. Really like the Neat Image noise reduction.

Jon555 · Nov 8, 2018

Sony do a lot of work to their high-ISO JPEGs and they generally look pretty good, considering the noise level the small sensor results in (which is unavoidable as the noise is in the light and even a perfect sensor wouldn't help much). This is especially true at sizes you are likely to use them at, rather than pixel level (where they may look a little rocky).

If you want to crop in then processing from Raw can help. I'd suggest using DXO Photolab with Prime noise reduction enabled or Neat Image 8 (which can achieve even better results), with the latter requiring a lot more manual intervention and skill (e.g. patch selection is critical).

BTW I went from:

To:

In Neat Image for a web site discussing noise reduction...

Jeff Greenberg · Nov 8, 2018

I see no evidence yet of one RAW NR reduction app
standing out as being indisputably best of all.
There is one with noise smoothed but without adding
back detail. That leaves it with overall "softness" issue.

I was looking for convincing reason to switch from ACR...

Offside · Nov 8, 2018

Jeff Greenberg said:
I see no evidence yet of one RAW NR reduction app
standing out as being indisputably best of all.
There is one with noise smoothed but without adding
back detail. That leaves it with overall "softness" issue.

I was looking for convincing reason to switch from ACR...

Here's a comparison I just did of five noise reduction programs, including ACR, which I normally use. It's may not be the perfect test, but it's a start.

Loading…

www.dpreview.com

Jeff Greenberg · Nov 8, 2018

Offside said:
Here's a comparison I just did of five noise reduction programs, including ACR, which I normally use. It's may not be the perfect test, but it's a start.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61899044

=====

Thanks! What are your conclusions & rankings?

Offside · Nov 8, 2018

Jeff Greenberg said:
Offside said:

Here's a comparison I just did of five noise reduction programs, including ACR, which I normally use. It's may not be the perfect test, but it's a start.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61899044

Click to expand...

=====

Thanks! What are your conclusions & rankings?

Not being an expert with any of these programs, DXO and Topaz look better based on the single image I processed. If you process raw, then DXO is considerably better due to the Prime option. But it is also slower. About 35 seconds per raw image on my workstation.

Here's a sample Panasonic FZ1000 raw image. That is quite an improvement. The result is not as dramatic with the basketball image that is being used in this thread.

Jon555 · Nov 8, 2018

I like Prime as it works well and has a very simple interface... I could always do better with Neat Image, but that requires a fair bit of user input to get a great result. Everything else has seemed unimpressive...

Jeff Greenberg · Nov 8, 2018

Anyone argue against DXO Prime clearly being the best?
What if someone only uses sliders & does no localized NR?

--
shoot first, apologize as needed, smile...

titasas · Nov 13, 2018

Hello again

Same school, same photographer, same RX10m4.

What do you think?

I think now its so much better

But have one question. Who can explain exposure compensation? I don't understand when this need to use..

DenImage · Nov 13, 2018

I thought I'd have a go at processing your basketball raws.

I used DXO PhotoLab, Auto Prime, Chrominance 100, LowFreq 0, Dead Pixels 0, Maze 0

I also disabled Vignetting correction to minimize added noise, Selective Tone Highlights and Midtones to 25, and Exposure Compensation to 0.05

I then batch processed the images in Photoshop to denoise and add grain in shadowed areas only. I do this to reduce as much "blotchiness" from PhotoLab's aggressive denoising algorithm:

Unfortunately, the images were too under exposed to do a great job.

Den

Jon555 · Nov 14, 2018

titasas said:
Hello again

Same school, same photographer, same RX10m4.

...

titasas said:
What do you think? I think now its so much better

But have one question. Who can explain exposure compensation? I don't understand when this need to use..

Exposure compensation is for when you want a different exposure than the camera is going to give you. Typically cameras assume a scene will average out to a mid grey. If you actually care about stuff that is brighter or darker than this you may want to make an adjustment. Or if you just want an image that is darker or lighter than a "correct" exposure, e.g. at night you probably don't want an exposure that makes it look like day, but actually somewhat dark. The classic example is a bride in a wedding dress filling quite a bit of the frame, you probably want the dress white (well, if it is) rather than the grey the camera will go for. Also bright snow/sand, etc.

Note clever modern exposure meters can do more scene analysis than older ones, so it can get complicated.

Michael Fritzen · Nov 14, 2018

Hi,

perhaps you'll find interesting further information under the following link:

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/indoor-sports-photography_topic83702.html

titasas · Nov 14, 2018

Michael Fritzen said:
Hi,

perhaps you'll find interesting further information under the following link:

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/indoor-sports-photography_topic83702.html

Thank you

Also today I try to shoot third game in the same school. Before game I watch a little bit about white balance. Here some examples now, what do you all think?

Travelshooter · Nov 14, 2018

These are better.... no doubt.

Michael Fritzen · Nov 15, 2018

Hi,

you're getting close to what I'd consider the realistic limits of the sensor size / ISO / given lighting situation.

Perhaps ice hockey due to the more neutral white of the ice would allow for some improvement in the colours.

titasas · Nov 19, 2018

Here is new example in ice hockey rink.

Look, flying stick

I don't know, whats changed, but I think, now I take better picture

Michael Fritzen · Nov 19, 2018

Hi,

well done indeed.

And now perhaps being overly critical I think that judging based on the brightness values of the ice as well as the jerseys of the players there's room for another +0.3EV adjustment of the exposure on the cam. I'd try to achieve this by rising the exposure time. Since the shots don't show the EXIF data correctly there's no exposure time information.

titasas · Nov 19, 2018

Michael Fritzen said:
Hi,

well done indeed.

And now perhaps being overly critical I think that judging based on the brightness values of the ice as well as the jerseys of the players there's room for another +0.3EV adjustment of the exposure on the cam. I'd try to achieve this by rising the exposure time. Since the shots don't show the EXIF data correctly there's no exposure time information.

Its hard for me to understand right exposure and how much need more EV.

I uploaded some RAW files from ice hockey rink: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ej1z8jzbowkajri/AAB4ud0Hupo9aptcnaUv0QJYa?dl=0

You can see all information and make right correct

I'm wrong? How to reduce RX10m4 noise (examples)

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