One last X-Trans Vs. Bayer comparison

ms18 said:

mahidoes said:

PetaPixel (Debunking 6 Myths About the Fujifilm X-Trans Sensor, Feb 2, 2018) delves into this controversy and outlines several workflow solutions.

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Good read. Thanks

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This seems like an older article with a new date.

mahidoes said:

mahidoes said:

Disclaimer: I've never shot Fuji and have followed several favorable blogs over time. I expect to have an X-T3 and a lens or two in house RSN.

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Digital Imaging Technician said:

stevo23 said:

Digital Imaging Technician said:

Erik Baumgartner said:

Is the more complicated X-trans processing really worth it anymore?

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X-trans made sense for moiré reduction in lower res rensors. Now they offer little or no advantage. TBH, I think Fujifilm strive to uphold some imaginary advantage because they're stuck with APS-C for their consumer products. The samples you posted (and numerous other tests) show that there's near zero pros to their homebrew filter array.

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You don't see the higher detail and lower moire and color noise?

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The X-H1 is about thrice the price. Naturally, it's in Fujifilms best interest that the image quality of their cheapest cameras does not exceed that of their prosumer/pro offerings.

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There was a thread comparing A7iii and one of the 24Mp xtrans sensors recently here and it was interesting how much more detail the X-trans had and how little moire there was compared to the A7iii. So I think there are some verifiable benefits demonstrated. Whether it's the result of the sensor is another question.

But I tend to agree that it makes little sense to draw x-trans vs. bayer conclusions from a comparison between a $500 entry level camera and $1500+ flagship level cameras. As of yet, Fuji haven't given us the real comparison.

I started X trans use with the XP1 and I remember having written here eithe the RAF development will be solved in terms of small details, sharpening color bleeding, ...... or the Xtrans will become a dead end..

With high res sensor the moiré advantage still existsbut is minimal Since the diffrence between bayer and Xtrans is at best minimal (or 0 ?) one could dream of future bodies cheaper with Bayer color filter ????

Digital Imaging Technician said:

X-trans made sense for moiré reduction in lower res rensors. Now they offer little or no advantage. TBH, I think Fujifilm strive to uphold some imaginary advantage because they're stuck with APS-C for their consumer products. The samples you posted (and numerous other tests) show that there's near zero pros to their homebrew filter array.

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Here we go.

You say that Fuji is "stuck" with APSC. No. Fuji is APSC and MF. That is what they are. It is a very deliberate and quite brilliant strategy by Fuji. Your statement is 100% wrong but is also pure calculated anti-Fuji bashing and a severe rule break on this Board.

You suggest that anything not MF or FF is "consumer," and that thus only FF and MF can be enthusiast or pro. Wrong. Again a blatant anti-Fuji bash and an insult to the thousands of pro's and enthusiasts who for very good reason chose APSC Fuji over the mob of FF alternatives.

You say X-Trans is a "homebrew" filter array with zero advantage. Completely false to the point of an extreme example of what I am talking about, and you know exactly what I'm talking about, because you are definitely it.

I actually admire you for not disguising it too much.

This thread is minutes away from lock.

Who do you work for?

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

Greg,

Again keep cool The whole and interesting question now is what is the benefit at present of x trans color array on a high res APSc sensor ? It seems to me that this benefit is smaller and smaller and the T100 sensor (not the camera) rends to show it

hence my idea, would it be possible to reduce the price of our Fuji gear by using the Byer color area, without losing anything at all, this is not an anti fuji idea on the contrary. If this is true and right it would on the contrary render the Fuji gear more attractive to people who thninks there is still an x trans issue

best

Bob

Digital Imaging Technician said:

Erik Baumgartner said:

Is the more complicated X-trans processing really worth it anymore?

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X-trans made sense for moiré reduction in lower res rensors. Now they offer little or no advantage. TBH, I think Fujifilm strive to uphold some imaginary advantage because they're stuck with APS-C for their consumer products. The samples you posted (and numerous other tests) show that there's near zero pros to their homebrew filter array.

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So, if you seriously think that Fuji is "stuck with" APSC as opposed to pursuing a strategy with that format as an integral part, then you are clearly either misinformed or seriously not paying attention. As others have mentioned, rather than going after FF and simply following Canikon, they have carved out a niche built around APSC. They're not "stuck with it." They've built a competitive product line based on that format and by all measures have been pretty successful with that strategy. Many of us see it as an advantage, not a burden.

If the benefit is lost on you, that's fine. There are lots of great FF choices out there, both mirrorless and DSLR. However, I'd be interested in knowing why you're even here since your posts come across looking a whole lot like trolling to me.

stevo23 said:

There was a thread comparing A7iii and one of the 24Mp xtrans sensors recently here and it was interesting how much more detail the X-trans had and how little moire there was compared to the A7iii.

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I don't think Fuji is compromising image quality even in its lowest cost x cameras.

I have owned a X-T100 for several months now, and it delivers excellent images.

The free Fuji/Silkypix v3.0 raw developer delivers great results from X-H1, X-T3, and X-T100. See my previous post in this thread here:


The DPR studio shots (as developed in the Fuji raw developer) show clearly the disadvantages of the Bayer sensor and the X-T3 studio shot is simply smoother (no hash where none is needed) and cleaner (no haloes, far less moire in the pencil drawings).

While I am not kicking myself saying "I must get rid of the X-T100 and buy a X-T3 ASAP", I am a happy Fuji customer and my eyes are open.

I agree also with others who see moire problems in the GFX. A GFX with X-trans would deliver better images.

baobob said:

Greg,

Again keep cool The whole and interesting question now is what is the benefit at present of x trans color array on a high res APSc sensor ? It seems to me that this benefit is smaller and smaller and the T100 sensor (not the camera) rends to show it

hence my idea, would it be possible to reduce the price of our Fuji gear by using the Byer color area, without losing anything at all, this is not an anti fuji idea on the contrary. If this is true and right it would on the contrary render the Fuji gear more attractive to people who thninks there is still an x trans issue

best

Bob

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Bob,

Nothing at all wrong with arguing about XTrans benefits, like you do.

IF Fuji switched from XTrans, I would not care.

But you know very well what he was doing. He was Fuji-bashing at a very high level. His tone and statements were pure anti-Fuji and had nothing to do with X-Trans. Hew was hitting APSC, XTrans, camera quality and stature -- everything. His statements were outrageous. It was brand-bashing at a high level.

My reply was absolutely not a rule break. I am very careful about how I respond to threads like this now. Very careful. The Mods watch me like Hawks.

My reply was sensible and allowed. These guys do not have a right to not be argued with after brand-bashing Fuji.

He is probably a great guy with a great camera, like a Sony or Nikon or something. He is probably a fine photographer and a guy that uses real cameras.

But I can argue against outright insults and outrageous statements about Fuji.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas

Old Ed,

I just saw your post. I only read a few on this thread and your post caught my eye because of your user name.

I hear you. I'm a computer hobbyist and I keep track of all the latest chip releases -- CPUs and GPUs - from all the big players and I follow how much parts cost because I build my own rigs.

I also track closely the development and release of all the 13 and 15-inch traditional clamshell laptops, hybrids, two-in-ones and tablets.

The point is this. The abundance of processing power at a cheap price is absolutely the highest it has ever been by huge leaps and bounds over what it was three years ago. What is ailing you will not be an issue if you spend just a little bit of money.

Ed, it is time for you to upgrade your PC and if you use a laptop, then it is really time to upgrade that baby.

You really do also need to invest 10 bucks a month and pay for the latest Lightroom and Photoshop that is constantly updated and improved. It is the way the industry is now. No need to fight it.

You will be amazed with your new PC and/or laptop. The RAF files will absolutely zip at lightening speed and you will not notice even a hint of lag. That old issue has been put to bed forever by the incredible power of these new CPUs, GPUs, fast RAM and uber-fast PCIe M.2 SSDs. Everything snaps instantly.

You don't have to spend a lot. In fact, I do my road work on a 13 inch Dell XPS 4K laptop that has a nice little M.2 SSD. It blasts through Lightroom at warp speed. You can load and develop RAFs so fast it will amaze you even on that little 2.5 pound clamshell. It has more power than my gaming rig had 4 years ago.

Get a new PC Ed. Any new mid-range PC with an 8th generation Intel chip, mid-range GPU and a nice M.2 SSD will scream through those RAF files so fast you won't even be able to blink.

It is time Ed. You need a new PC (spend maybe 800 bucks to a grand). You need a new laptop (same price). Now you can spend double or triple that - but no need to in order to zip through RAF files in Lightroom.

Just do it. You will enjoy your photography, and your life with your new PC and laptop, much more.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

Great shots...thanks! Love the snowscape / landscape ones especially.

Best Regards,

Jason

kiriak said:

this xtrans vs bayer may be of interest for jpeg shooters also,

I don't shoot RAW as in most cases I cannot process them better than sooc jpegs.

I had an X-M1 and while I was quite satisfied from the jpegs from people (skin tone) and low light scenes,

I was not satisfied with the jpegs from all other situations.

Jpegs I got from traveling were in my eyes, inferior to those from my old Pentax which was considered to had bad jpegs.

I thought it was because of the xtrans sensor, and I considered changing system. I upgraded to an X-T100 and I am quite happy about the jpegs. I would buy an X-T2 or X-T3 if there was an option for a bayer sensor.

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No...

The Bayer vs X-Trans battle is only of interest to me (as an X-Trans jpeg shooter) for it's comedy value from those who say X-Trans pretty much shouldn't exist.









When I get natural colour and resolution like the two above, I don't need bayer...and DON'T want bayer.

Dave.