TN on "color science"

I don't dare post this on the Canon R forum, but it is pretty amusing:

What I don't understand is how Tony interprets the large gap between the brands' color ratings in his poll to conclude that color science does not matter. If it didn't, all brands would score about the same.
I think his point was not so much that it doesn't mater but that people are unable to consistently identify the same colour science. Often being more swayed by the brand labelling of an image than the actual colour in the image. Whereas if it was really all about the colour the same images would have been chosen every time.
Color science between Velvia 50 and Velvia 100 is the same. It is also the same for Provia and Astia. Renditions of any given scene is different for different films. Depending on the scene, light, taste one may prefer one emulsion over the others.

One doesn't put cameras on all auto and start comparing OOC jgs, camera must be set correctly first. To escape the bother some prefer to shoot raw.
 
Last edited:
I don't dare post this on the Canon R forum, but it is pretty amusing:

What I don't understand is how Tony interprets the large gap between the brands' color ratings in his poll to conclude that color science does not matter. If it didn't, all brands would score about the same.
I think his point was not so much that it doesn't mater but that people are unable to consistently identify the same colour science. Often being more swayed by the brand labelling of an image than the actual colour in the image. Whereas if it was really all about the colour the same images would have been chosen every time.
Color science between Velvia 50 and Velvia 100 is the same. It is also the same for Provia and Astia. Renditions of any given scene is different for different films. Depending on the scene, light, taste one may prefer one emulsion over the others.

One doesn't put cameras on all auto and start comparing OOC jgs, camera must be set correctly first. To escape the bother some prefer to shoot raw.
Actually a very high percentage of people do leave cameras in auto everything and use out of camera JPG. Where ‘taste’ comes into it they might pick a scene mode. Eliminate the 2 or 3% of ‘photographers’ from Instagram and what’s left will clearly show the point.

The whole reason colour science has become the football of the day is because people are using it to recommend one brand over another. Tony’s review debunks the notion that the vocal brands produce the colours that people say are the best when they don’t know the brand. The point being brand perception plays a larger part than the actual colour science.

As you suggest if you set your camera well, shoot RAW, post process well the cameras contribution is very small. However your film analogy only holds true in comparison to out of camera JPG. If you scan the film you then add in the ‘colour science’ of the scanner and whatever you then do in post. Desaturation to B&W being the extreme example.
 
Yup. People should stop talking about the 'color sience' bullsh*t. Especially if you shoot RAW it doesn't matter at all.
If you shoot raw and use the manufacturer's processing software, the same colour technology that goes into producing in-camera JPEGs will be preserved.

Even if you use Adobe's raw processors, Adobe say that Camera Standard / Camera Portrait / Camera Landscape etc are profiles that Adobe creates in an attempt to replicate the profiles of the in-camera equivalents.

So I don't think it is right to say "it doesn't matter at all if you shoot raw". Raw shooters can still take advantage of the manufacturer's colour tech if they want, or ignore it if they have a better idea.
 
It's funny indeed. "Everyone hates Fuji while Fuji hates Sony" :-D
Yes, this was interesting.

My interpretation is that a lot of the participants figured that Fuji was the most likely winner, based on reputation, and therefore put them last in their rankings.

That is, Fuji got most 'hate' because more people were worried that Fuji would win - its a mark of respect I guess :-)

Putting random brands on the pictures was pretty clever.
Unfortunately, anything that introduces the possibility of bias in the results renders the "test" useless.
Nope. In the first part he is specifically testing FOR bias and that test was very interesting. In the second part he tried to test and take any potential bias out. Of course, bias is a part of human nature and is impossible to fully remove, so it cannot render tests useless
That is a typical downplaying of a creditable and scientific test to 'useless' when the test not favor someone's brand, further prove unconditional brand bias.
I did not mention any brand in my post...I said the test told us nothing. It was not credable, nor was it really scientific.
Just because not in your way.
As you have been someone who dismisses test sites if they don't favour Sony (and in the past, Canon, when that was your brand) you aren't really one to discuss bias in any way.
You show exactly bias against Sony.
 
I don't dare post this on the Canon R forum, but it is pretty amusing:

What I don't understand is how Tony interprets the large gap between the brands' color ratings in his poll to conclude that color science does not matter. If it didn't, all brands would score about the same.
I think his point was not so much that it doesn't mater but that people are unable to consistently identify the same colour science. Often being more swayed by the brand labelling of an image than the actual colour in the image. Whereas if it was really all about the colour the same images would have been chosen every time.
Color science between Velvia 50 and Velvia 100 is the same. It is also the same for Provia and Astia. Renditions of any given scene is different for different films. Depending on the scene, light, taste one may prefer one emulsion over the others.

One doesn't put cameras on all auto and start comparing OOC jgs, camera must be set correctly first. To escape the bother some prefer to shoot raw.
Actually a very high percentage of people do leave cameras in auto everything and use out of camera JPG.
That's a justification of the test being relevant for those who doesn't pursue photography as art, and don't even make a tiny effort.

The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about color.
The whole reason colour science has become the football of the day is because people are using it to recommend one brand over another.
Do you suggest that color models (things that they call "color science" here) are the same between the brands, or even within the brand? Even observer functions in use (that's a term, https://www.rit.edu/cos/colorscience/re_AsanoObserverFunctions.php and similar) are different. Customization ("looks") are very much different.
Tony’s review debunks
It debunks nothing. Start here: how people were invited to take the poll? Is it quite random? Next question: why would I take the poll if it is suggested by somebody whom I know to be biased? Next question: monitor calibrations and profiling. Suppose, Sony tailored the default rendition to a typical over-brightened bluish consumer monitor, would that matter? They may be right in doing so, addressing the crowd, but my monitor is not one of those, and I don't care for a pleasant look under such conditions. If I need it, I can convert good color to account for such conditions myself.
As you suggest if you set your camera well, shoot RAW, post process well the cameras contribution is very small.
Not so small. Some CFAs result 75-80 dB SNR, some - only in 55-60 dB. You can read some of the publications by Fujifilm EM (FFEM) on this topic.
However your film analogy only holds true in comparison to out of camera JPG.
That's what the poll and the video is about, out of camera jpgs.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about color.
Please watch the video again thoroughly. You don't get it. TN actually didn't talk colors but the myth of one brand has better than another in colors, and effectively proved it's largely people's perception on brand bias.

TN did the test smartly. He knows that if he casts his opinion on which brand has better colors then he is no different from you and me, just his subjective opinion, nothing more than that. Instead he just effectively proved it's largely people's perception that largely influenced by brand bias.

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55485085@N04/albums
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
The whole point of this video seems to be that color science is irrelevant because perception of color is very subjective (opinion) and is subject to many variables.
Yes. What about a name change now? Someone proposed color sauce which I think is right.
Color science is a fundamental field of science dedicated to understanding the creation of colored stimuli, sources of illumination, and ultimately the human perception of color.

It is relevant. It is real.
and here come the semantics.

CONTEXT.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color so much?

Not that I'm blaming you because, as the robust, rigorous, eminently scientific blinded 1500-strong test quite elegantly and decisively demonstrated, Fuji's 2nd place finish was closer to last place Canon than first place Sony.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color
I don't like the color on the video. It has everything to do with ho the light and camera are set, and with grading. It has very little to do with the camera.
the robust, rigorous, eminently scientific blinded 1500-strong test
Yes, M-me Clinton is the President.

All this test "proved" is that cheaters are gonna cheat, and wine experts he knows are not really experts.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color
I don't like the color on the video. It has everything to do with ho the light and camera are set, and with grading. It has very little to do with the camera.
I don't know about that. I really don't know about that. Nobody could turn a Velvia into a Kodachrome--and they tried, lots of times, believe me.

The camera/brand does matter. The filters, the camera interpretation of colors etc--all of that sets the stage for the postprocessing, if any, that follows.
the robust, rigorous, eminently scientific blinded 1500-strong test
Yes, M-me Clinton is the President.

All this test "proved" is that cheaters are gonna cheat, and wine experts he knows are not really experts.
I'm seeing a lot of whine experts. Is that what you meant?
 
Last edited:
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color
I don't like the color on the video. It has everything to do with ho the light and camera are set, and with grading. It has very little to do with the camera.
I don't know about that. I really don't know about that. Nobody could turn a Velvia into a Kodachrome
You really don't know about that. CFAs are not emulsions. Adobe gives you similar renditions from different cameras, same as many other converters do.
--and they tried, lots of times,
Like rinse and repeat, right? It helps, if done the right way in the right place. This is neither. To understand why, look at the emulsion composition and development.
believe me.
Sorry, I don't. Humans are not that stupid.
 
Last edited:
I played with my A9 and Sony Bravia. Their color reproduction look quite real.

I feel rested. In fact, I don't let this color science crap to distract my daily life.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color
I don't like the color on the video. It has everything to do with ho the light and camera are set, and with grading. It has very little to do with the camera.
I don't know about that. I really don't know about that. Nobody could turn a Velvia into a Kodachrome
You really don't know about that. CFAs are not emulsions. Adobe gives you similar renditions from different cameras, same as many other converters do.
You're mistaken--very mistaken!

As someone sagely noted: "

As for circumventing the issue by shooting RAW, I've never bought that line. Here's a quote from an older DPReview article addressing this very issue:

"And before you jump in with a "just shoot Raw" argument, our Technical Editor Rishi has a message for you:

While shooting Raw helps poor white balance issues, it’s not a panacea for a disagreeable color engine. Putting aside for a moment the convenience of using straight-out-of-camera JPEGs, Raw converters like Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) include camera-specific profiles that emulate the manufacturer’s various color modes, so if they’re not to your taste to begin with, the Raw conversions are also unlikely to be palatable.

Furthermore, ACR can’t emulate the multitude of non-linear, scene-dependent adjustments camera JPEG engines perform. Even the same colors are not necessarily processed in the same manner in a landscape as it is in a portrait. It’s hard for Raw converters to emulate these complex adjustments unless the manufacturer works directly with them to directly share what they’ve learned over decades of color research."

https://www.dpreview.com/videos/919...tout-sony-a9-vs-canon-1dx-mark-ii-vs-nikon-d5
Like rinse and repeat, right? It helps, if done the right way in the right place. This is neither. To understand why, look at the emulsion composition and development.
believe me.
Sorry, I don't. Humans are not that stupid.
Well, if some of Northrup's detractors are any guide, they just might be.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color
I don't like the color on the video. It has everything to do with ho the light and camera are set, and with grading. It has very little to do with the camera.
I don't know about that. I really don't know about that. Nobody could turn a Velvia into a Kodachrome
You really don't know about that. CFAs are not emulsions. Adobe gives you similar renditions from different cameras, same as many other converters do.
You're mistaken--very mistaken!
So, you are saying CFAs are emulsions. That's a relief, I now know not to talk to you.
 
The color and light in that video are so bad it's a joke that he dares to speak about

color.
Please watch the video again
I can't, the color of the video is prohibitively ugly.

End of story.
You do know he shoots these videos using Fuji kit don’t you?
I don't care what kit it is.
Why do you hate Fuji color
I don't like the color on the video. It has everything to do with ho the light and camera are set, and with grading. It has very little to do with the camera.
I don't know about that. I really don't know about that. Nobody could turn a Velvia into a Kodachrome
You really don't know about that. CFAs are not emulsions. Adobe gives you similar renditions from different cameras, same as many other converters do.
You're mistaken--very mistaken!
So, you are saying...
No, you got it all wrong--again!

You know more--a lot more!--about these important things if only you watched Tony's objective (perhaps the most objective ever) video on the subject. It's not too late.

In so doing, you'd come to appreciate Sony's decisive color science win--an outcome whose scope cannot be understated!
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top