X100 series lens - is there really room to improve it?

OK here's a topic for both X100 devotees and those with some lens design knowledge amongst us (not me!):

An upgrade of the X100 lens is an oft requested feature of the "next generation" X100 series. But have we considered that maybe what we have, is just about as good as it gets? Half of the lens already sits in the body, and is extremely close to the sensor I believe. Is there any room for more corrective elements? Is it realistic to expect Fujifilm engineers to make significant improvements without changing the size / form factor of the camera itself? How acceptable is that?

I'm curious what people think about this, and whether a lens that extends when being switched on (GRII for example) would a) offer more possibilities, and b) alter the nature of the camera to the point where it's no longer an X100? Personally (and for street photography) I quite like the fact that you can't really tell whether the X100 is switched on and ready for action or not...but that's just me.

I don't think I would ever buy another camera with a retractable lens. ( Never say never, but almost certainly not.) And yes, I think such a camera wouldn't be a "real X100", since the fiddly little retraction mechanism would be a violation of its classic "one piece" philosophy.

I personally have never had a problem with the current lens. Yes, it is soft at f/2, which is even kind of nice sometimes if you want the effect, but my T is acceptably sharp at f/2.8 and excellent at anything smaller. It's a street camera and meant more for outdoor use, although I've gotten fine images with mine indoors, especially since it is easy to hand hold at slow shutter speeds.

If there was an improvement that might tempt me to upgrade, it would be weatherproofing.

I would like to see more add-on lens a FF equivalent 85mm but first a 105mm if possible.

A 105mm is such a great range for portaits to get fantastic background compression and bokeh. All in a not to much of a zoom range great for outdoor shooting.

The current lens seems to be ok but I am not a F2 shooter for my use of the camera so that F stop is not something i need.

Does driving the speed of lens in AF count, or is this limited to optics?

I have no idea if it's optically possible, but a sharpness improvement at "macro" distance would be great. 23mm is fine for me, and the adapters give a decent range, but boy is that lens soft below F4 in close-ups!

mainger said:

I have no idea if it's optically possible, but a sharpness improvement at "macro" distance would be great. 23mm is fine for me, and the adapters give a decent range, but boy is that lens soft below F4 in close-ups!

Click to expand...

It would be interesting to know how many experienced photographers would choose a 23mm lens for macro photography.

I'm one of those people who thinks the lens on the X100 series cameras is excellent, just the way it is.

Granted, the X100 series cameras aren't the best cameras to use for every type of photography and the 23mm lens is anything but a macro lens but that's okay because the series wasn't designed or intended to be used as a macro camera any more than it was designed to be used as a fast action sports camera.

These are just quick snapshots but I don't think I'd want anything sharper.


X100S


X100F

Naturally, these were downsized quite a bit for posting here and they could have been sharpened even more with post processing but, to me, anything sharper looks unnatural and too digital.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I dearly love my (original) X100; so much so that I actually have 2! The lens certainly does not have a proper macro magnification, and 23mm is indeed not the most common focal length for macro. However, if you switch on that little flower "macro" mode, open wide and shoot something like 20cm away, you'll see what I mean. But I guess it's a flaw of many primes... I just wish Fuji managed to somehow bend the light

I’m happy with the lens the way it is. But I would be extra happy if they offered a 35 f2 version.

--
After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.

Except for medium format lenses, I believe that the X100 series is the only current digital camera using a lens with a leaf shutter; if not, 25 people will let me know in the next ten minutes. Because it's a leaf shutter inside the lens and not behind it, like a curtain shutter, the X100 series cameras sync flash at almost any speed and are almost completely silent without the need for an electronic shutter and the problems it offers. Because the shutter is inside the lens and the lens is fixed, Fuji managed to make it appear small and pancake like because at least a quarter, most likely a third, or possibly even half of the lens is inside the body. Want a faster lens, say f1.4 or even a modest f1.8; think of half or more of something like the Fuji 23mm f1.4 or the Zeiss Touit 1.8/32 sticking out of the X100 body. That body would have to be a lot larger and heavier to accommodate that much larger lens. Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors. Again a larger body or more of the lens sticking out in front.

One thing we all know, is that wide open and close up, the current lens is soft but, quickly sharpens up at f2.4 and beyond. Fuji used to say that they designed it that way but, it's a legitimate complaint that all of the sharpness fans have. So Fuji, fix that one tiny flaw and please leave the rest unchanged

Thanks for that reply, it's very informative indeed.

bs1946 said:

Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors.

Click to expand...

I kinda disagree with that part, there are a lot of examples of relatively small and yet silent and fast-AF glass accross the systems. I think that at least focusing motor can be improved in X100-series lens.

SirPalomid said:

bs1946 said:

Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors.

Click to expand...

I kinda disagree with that part, there are a lot of examples of relatively small and yet silent and fast-AF glass accross the systems. I think that at least focusing motor can be improved in X100-series lens.

Click to expand...

Why is it every generation of new cell phones gets more tech made smaller to jam into increasingly skinnier phones, yet with cameras the assumption is that everything will always stay the same size? Why can't they keep making smaller and more quiet focus motors with advances in tech?

dpcane said:

SirPalomid said:

bs1946 said:

Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors.

Click to expand...

I kinda disagree with that part, there are a lot of examples of relatively small and yet silent and fast-AF glass accross the systems. I think that at least focusing motor can be improved in X100-series lens.

Click to expand...

Why is it every generation of new cell phones gets more tech made smaller to jam into increasingly skinnier phones, yet with cameras the assumption is that everything will always stay the same size?

Click to expand...

My new cellphone has better lens and camera than previous one, while being the same size. Otherwise cameraphone should be considerable thicker and larger with each generation.

Missed shot.

bs1946 said:

Except for medium format lenses, I believe that the X100 series is the only current digital camera using a lens with a leaf shutter; if not, 25 people will let me know in the next ten minutes. Because it's a leaf shutter inside the lens and not behind it, like a curtain shutter, the X100 series cameras sync flash at almost any speed and are almost completely silent without the need for an electronic shutter and the problems it offers. Because the shutter is inside the lens and the lens is fixed, Fuji managed to make it appear small and pancake like because at least a quarter, most likely a third, or possibly even half of the lens is inside the body. Want a faster lens, say f1.4 or even a modest f1.8; think of half or more of something like the Fuji 23mm f1.4 or the Zeiss Touit 1.8/32 sticking out of the X100 body. That body would have to be a lot larger and heavier to accommodate that much larger lens. Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors. Again a larger body or more of the lens sticking out in front.

One thing we all know, is that wide open and close up, the current lens is soft but, quickly sharpens up at f2.4 and beyond. Fuji used to say that they designed it that way but, it's a legitimate complaint that all of the sharpness fans have. So Fuji, fix that one tiny flaw and please leave the rest unchanged

Click to expand...

I think it was designed that way to give a soft focus option.

dpcane said:

SirPalomid said:

bs1946 said:

Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors.

Click to expand...

I kinda disagree with that part, there are a lot of examples of relatively small and yet silent and fast-AF glass accross the systems. I think that at least focusing motor can be improved in X100-series lens.

Click to expand...

Why is it every generation of new cell phones gets more tech made smaller to jam into increasingly skinnier phones, yet with cameras the assumption is that everything will always stay the same size? Why can't they keep making smaller and more quiet focus motors with advances in tech?

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong because everyone is different and, like almost everything else, there really are different requirements/desires when it comes to image producing devices.

The word "photographer" could be used to describe anyone who takes pictures and, by a large margin, the majority of people put whatever device they're using on an auto function and get images that make them very happy.

There's nothing wrong with this and these people want the smallest, most convenient device they can buy to capture their images.

Obviously, small, thin cell phones are ideal and are perfect for an overwhelming number of people.

People who take photography more serious and who are probably considered hobbyist/enthusiast or even professionals all own cell phones and appreciate the fact that they're small/thin, lightweight, etc. but they want something "better" or more satisfying when it comes to photography and manufacturers know the majority of these people don't want anything too small because they simply aren't practical and almost impossible to use.

Even though cameras the size of the Sony RX100 series are extremely popular the majority of people who own these cameras use them on an auto function and they border on being too small to use any other way.

I agree with some people that, sooner or later, these small, consumer level cameras will be completely replaced by cell phones (or whatever comes next ) and manufacturers realize the majority of people who are "serious" about photography don't want extremely small cameras.

They also realize the people who don't want cameras that are too small will be their primary customers because everyone else will be using cell phones.

Long story short-------manufacturers don't reduce the size of cameras, anymore than they already have, because they don't want to.

Les Lammers said:

bs1946 said:

One thing we all know, is that wide open and close up, the current lens is soft but, quickly sharpens up at f2.4 and beyond. Fuji used to say that they designed it that way but, it's a legitimate complaint that all of the sharpness fans have. So Fuji, fix that one tiny flaw and please leave the rest unchanged

Click to expand...

I think it was designed that way to give a soft focus option.

Click to expand...

I wish it was indeed an option. Press fn, select soft-focus, hey presto!

Les Lammers said:

bs1946 said:

Except for medium format lenses, I believe that the X100 series is the only current digital camera using a lens with a leaf shutter; if not, 25 people will let me know in the next ten minutes. Because it's a leaf shutter inside the lens and not behind it, like a curtain shutter, the X100 series cameras sync flash at almost any speed and are almost completely silent without the need for an electronic shutter and the problems it offers. Because the shutter is inside the lens and the lens is fixed, Fuji managed to make it appear small and pancake like because at least a quarter, most likely a third, or possibly even half of the lens is inside the body. Want a faster lens, say f1.4 or even a modest f1.8; think of half or more of something like the Fuji 23mm f1.4 or the Zeiss Touit 1.8/32 sticking out of the X100 body. That body would have to be a lot larger and heavier to accommodate that much larger lens. Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors. Again a larger body or more of the lens sticking out in front.

One thing we all know, is that wide open and close up, the current lens is soft but, quickly sharpens up at f2.4 and beyond. Fuji used to say that they designed it that way but, it's a legitimate complaint that all of the sharpness fans have. So Fuji, fix that one tiny flaw and please leave the rest unchanged

Click to expand...

I think it was designed that way to give a soft focus option.

Click to expand...

Fuji used to say on the US website that the lens was designed that way for portraits but like a lot of things, that information was removed as marketing priorities shift. I only do casual portraits and very few of those but I remember years ago, there were lenses designed to be soft for portrait use because sharp lenses show ever little flaw in a persons skin.

bs1946 said:

Except for medium format lenses, I believe that the X100 series is the only current digital camera using a lens with a leaf shutter; if not, 25 people will let me know in the next ten minutes. Because it's a leaf shutter inside the lens and not behind it, like a curtain shutter, the X100 series cameras sync flash at almost any speed and are almost completely silent without the need for an electronic shutter and the problems it offers. Because the shutter is inside the lens and the lens is fixed, Fuji managed to make it appear small and pancake like because at least a quarter, most likely a third, or possibly even half of the lens is inside the body. Want a faster lens, say f1.4 or even a modest f1.8; think of half or more of something like the Fuji 23mm f1.4 or the Zeiss Touit 1.8/32 sticking out of the X100 body. That body would have to be a lot larger and heavier to accommodate that much larger lens. Faster AF would require faster, larger, and possibly noisier motors. Again a larger body or more of the lens sticking out in front.

One thing we all know, is that wide open and close up, the current lens is soft but, quickly sharpens up at f2.4 and beyond. Fuji used to say that they designed it that way but, it's a legitimate complaint that all of the sharpness fans have. So Fuji, fix that one tiny flaw and please leave the rest unchanged

Click to expand...

The Ricoh GR, GR II, and upcoming GR III have leaf shutters as does the new Fuji XF10.

Sal

ikaika777 said:

I’m happy with the lens the way it is. But I would be extra happy if they offered a 35 f2 version.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I'd like that too. I started hating the 50mm equivalence and would swear by the 35mm of the X100 series. Then I put that horribly huge TCL and just loved the images it took. If it did not completely defeat the purpose of the X100F, I would have not switched to an ILC.

I wouldn't mind if the X100 series ended up having a somewhat bigger lens. Not by much, but a couple of centimetres wouldn't bother me, especially if that meant sharper and/or faster lens.

ViMa said:

ikaika777 said:

I’m happy with the lens the way it is. But I would be extra happy if they offered a 35 f2 version.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I'd like that too. I started hating the 50mm equivalence and would swear by the 35mm of the X100 series. Then I put that horribly huge TCL and just loved the images it took. If it did not completely defeat the purpose of the X100F, I would have not switched to an ILC.

Click to expand...

Just have to comment on the telephoto converter lens (TCL).

I agree with you 100% about the quality of the lens; it's excellent and produces great images but you're also right about the lens not being something a person would want to leave permanently mounted on the camera because it does ad to the size and weight of the camera.

Thank goodness it's easy to attach so I just keep it in the bag until I want to use it.

One thing I love about this lens is that if you use it in combination with the camera's digital crop feature it turns the X100F into a decent portrait camera. Not quite the perfect portrait focal length but close.

The digital crop feature on the X100F hardly ever gets mentioned but it's much better than many people realize. The camera's processor does some magic with those images and they turn out beautiful.

I think the Leica Q may be the only other camera that has this identical feature.

ViMa said:

I wouldn't mind if the X100 series ended up having a somewhat bigger lens. Not by much, but a couple of centimetres wouldn't bother me, especially if that meant sharper and/or faster lens.

Click to expand...