What is Olympus Hiding ...?

Could be a number of things like

Sensor performance, Stabilization, burst rates, pro video features, etc... After all these are the areas Olympus already beats the XT-3. What Olympus will do is try to one up the Lumix G9, in AF, tracking, EVF, stabilization, burst rate, 60p 4K, and high speed video in 4K. Then Olympus can regain the title of best MFT photo camera. And that will be my next MFT camera.
To me the Panasonic G9 is just a little bit better then the EM-1 II in many way's, the first goal of this new Oly camera is Obvious to regain the best MFT camera on the market, so normal that Oly has that goal in mind to beat the G9 with a fair margin.

But here they talk about outperforming a APS-C ( Fuji XT-3 ) camera !! that is another league !!! so how can that become true, which technology can do that ? maybe Global Shutter / Organic sensor or both together could outperform a APS-C sensor in sensor performance ? or is there an other way ?
 
Current Olympus cameras use magnetic levitation of the sensor for IBIS, and they may well own the patent.
Magnetic levitation? If so, you would never want your camera close to a magnetic field...

But you may be right, found this from an Olympus website:

“Turning on the OM-D camera energizes a coil and magnet arrangement that causes the image sensor to float in magnetic suspension. This allows the image sensor to move freely, so it can be rotated or moved vertically or horizontally depending on the movement of the camera. It can also be used to compensate for the gentle vibration that occurs when the user is walking, such as when recording video.”

It may be the way to go for multi-axis systems, else each axis would need some sort of bearings and guides.
As I said elsewhere, 'suspension' and 'levitation' are different things.
I found this You-Tube video of the Olympus IBIS working


It shows clearly that it isn't magnetically 'levitated'. It's held down with springs, sliding against a backplate which keeps it correctly located in the image plane.
Thanks for the link. I can only make out 3 axes shown moving, not 5.
I see that's been explained so no need to add. Just to say, the sensor has to be kept in the focal plane, otherwise the image will be out of focus.
The springs are not conclusive at excluding levitation. They may be needed when powered off. I wonder if there is additionally a mechanical lock for the axes when powered off - else it would be quite fragile to shocks in transit....
Right now, we're in Russell teapot territory. So far, no-one has produced a source that says it is 'levitated'. There is a source that says it is 'suspended' (though even then, not a strong source, a popular description by a journalist, and journalists often get the technical details wrong). So, the assertion that it is 'levitated' depends on insisting that 'suspended' means 'levitated'. Really, the onus is on those who insist on 'levitation' to prove that, not those who think that Olympus will have used the obvious, satisfactory and well tried engineering solution. For a start, none of the technical information that is available (until and unless one of the proponents of 'levitation' finds otherwise) shows any 'levitation' mechanism in any Olympus document, the default assumption would be that Olympus has used the sensible engineering solution.

On that solution, it is essential that the sensor be accurately aligned in the image plane If you look at Roger Cicala's recent teardowns, you'll see that cameras include precise adjustment (either shims or spring and screw) to ensure that alignment. In the case of a 'magnetically levitated' sensor, that alignment has to be maintained by active control, with a feedback loop and a mechanism for constantly the position and parallelism (in 2 dimensions) of the sensor. Not impossible, but it is some extra, and not so simple engineering. So then we think, what would be the advantage of such a levitation mechanism over a simple low-friction mechanical arrangement.. The sole one that I can see is that it reduces friction a bit, which in turn will reduce the power needed to move the sensor. Against that it's more complex, expensive and prone to failure than the mechanical mechanism. It's not even clear to me that there would be any power advantage, since it would take power in any case to maintain the levitation, which would likely offset any power saving from the friction loss, and then since the sensor unit has to be mechanically connected in any case (through the hold-down springs and the flex PCB) there will be mechanical resistance to movement in any case, and the sliding friction of the sensor unit is likely insignificant. Then the extra weight of the levitation mechanism will add to the inertia, which is another negative. In the end, the mechanical slider is the better solution, and I suspect that, the good engineers that they are, Olympus will have used the better solution.

But as I said, so far no-one has shown a source that says that magnetic levitation is used. Those that propose the unusual are the ones that need to back up their claims with evidence.
 
The thread title and the perplexing mystery of what Olympus are building in there, reminded me of this lovely, atmospheric Tom Waits piece:

 
By the time this camera comes out (?) i hope it isn't a case of too little too late! And it's only going to be exciting for those that have the budget to buy it and justify getting over something like the X-T3 which may also be cheaper by then... other than that there isn't anything exciting for owners of models other than E-M1ii waiting for upgrades to look forward to.... at the moment!

No more firmware updates for the E-M1ii would really suck. No firmware updates and no hard evidence of what spec the new camera is going to be in this period of high activity from other companies just seems to come across as very lacklustre.

I do waste a lot of time watching youtube photography videos (but there you go) and can't help but notice the lack of Olympus (or M4/3) being mentioned amongst other companies in recent videos which doesn't really help the cause. It seems that something really positive and convincing from Olympus needs to get out there!
My problem with Olympus at my low level is the 28mm barrier with their compact kit lens plus skimping on sensors at entry level.

The Olympus 1 super zoom probably tanked because of the 28mm and there was a lot of adverse comment as you cannot uncrop images but lack of reach is easily corrected afterwards.

So you get an EM10 III which is a lovely little camera but 16mp and that narrow lens just was not tempting against a Fuji XT100 with a lens starting at 23.5mm equivalent and a 24mp aps-c sensor.

I do love Olympus stuff and miss the IBIS and the menus believe it or not but not a lot else. There is something a bit stagnant in the other aspects of their entry level lenses and sensor choice. Of course you can buy a pro lens to correct this or the spindly 12-50 but having used the latter it creates a very unbalanced thing to carry about on camera.

I am not sure Olympus are focusing enough on getting people in to the system at the start point.
I really enjoy my E-M1ii but if it and my pro lenses resale value start to take a dive I think I'd have to think seriously about selling up - hopefully this will not be the case.
 
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KeepCalm,

I simply bought my Olympus EM10-II as body only and then added the very affordable Panasonic 12-32mm pancake kit lens to get the wider angle view. It is a great little lens, razor sharp from wide open!

And there is nothing wrong with the image quality of the Olympus 16 megapixel sensors. They are excellent... good enough to complete multiple National Geographic assignments. (See the work of Jay Dickman)

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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I simply bought my Olympus EM10-II as body only and then added the excellent Panasonic 12-32mm pancake kit lens to get the wider angle view. It is a great little lens, razor sharp!

And there is nothing wrong with the image quality of the Olympus 16 megapixel sensors. They are good enough to complete multiple National Geographic assignments. (See the work of Jay Dickman)
When I had a 12-32 I could not manually focus it on my EM5 so have Olympus fixed that? It was a lovely lens but not designed for Olympus bodies at the time.

I am not saying the images are bad but it is useful for the short reach lenses to crop and are you saying the smaller older 16mp sensor can crop down as well as the current Fuji aps-c sensor. People struggle to see better image quality on the higher level cameras with Fuji as they grade their kit mainly on speed and facilities. In fact the latest generation of low level kit can outperform in IQ the previous generation high end stuff of course performance can be a bit laggard by the best modern standards but that is not something I worry about.

Just saying why I went for Fuji not Olympus but if for better or for worst who knows.

Buying body only and lens separately is an expensive business and the whole camera business bar Olympus see 24mm as the standard kit and compact wide angle bar Olympus.
 
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Actually, that is a fair point you have made. You cannot manually focus the 12-32mm on an Olympus camera, and it isn't easy to manual focus on Panasonic cameras either!

But I am sure the vast majority of kit lens users only ever use auto focus with these lenses anyway. And the 12-32mm kit lens auto focuses very quickly and efficiently on Olympus or Panasonic cameras.

I bought my copy of the 12-32mm (used, mint condition and guaranteed) for just £130.

As for cropping...well, again I think you are unusual to crop so often and just throw away data. Most people try and compose their images reasonably accurately.

16 megapixels is plenty enough for almost anything. It is good enough for multiple National Geographic assignments, as I say.

But if you crop almost everything then sure, the more megapixels the better. Why stop at 24 MP...Surely 40 MP gives you even more cropping latitude?

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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Actually, that is an important point you have made. You cannot manually focus the 12-32mm on an Olympus camera, and it isn't easy to manual focus on Panasonic cameras either!
As for the 12-50 macro, I find it to be a perfectly adequate lens. Light, sealed, internal zoom, with that handy macro function. Not the best I own, but certainly adequate for many purposes.
But I am sure the vast majority of kit lens users only ever use auto focus with these lenses anyway. And the 12-32mm kit lens auto focuses very quickly and efficiently on Olympus or Panasonic cameras.
Can't comment on the 12-32, as never even handled one. However, there seem to be more than the occasional one that falls apart.
As for cropping...well, again I think you are unusual to crop so often and just throw away data. Most people try and compose their images reasonably accurately.
One of my weakest points has always been composition. In order to improve that, I have imposed a discipline on myself that means I almost never crop any shot. Over about 12+ years, this seems to have improved my composition skills quite a lot ...
16 megapixels is plenty enough for almost anything.
Even cameras with 5 MPx (from the 4-6 MPx days) can print excellently at A2+ size (17x22"). I have several of these hanging.
 
Current Olympus cameras use magnetic levitation of the sensor for IBIS, and they may well own the patent.
I'm sure that they own patents on all kinds of details of their implementation. As for 'magnetic levitation', perhaps you could give us a source. The articles that I see talk about voice coil actuators, and that is what is shown in the patent that I have access to. It's hard to see how magnetic levitation would work in the context of a sensor that needs to be accurately located in the Z dimension, but your source probably explains this. It would be really interesting to see.
This article explains it well and quotes a passage on the Olympus website:

"Turning on the OM-D camera energizes a coil and magnet arrangement that causes the image sensor to float in magnetic suspension.
I've read that article. I don't read 'suspension' as being the same as 'levitation'. I thin k if you saw something 'suspended' and something 'levitated' they'd conjure up completely different pictures in your mind. What I see in the patent is the sensor physically suspended bewteen voice coil actuators, it's not floating in space.
I see "levitation" and "suspension" meaning the same thing in this context (note it also says "float").
There we disagree. I don't. The argument that it is 'levitated' depends entirely in believing that they mean the same things, so if you want to make that argument, you have to provide some evidence that independently backs up that this is 'levitated'
Again, it conjures up Maglev (Magnetic Levitation) trains, which don't float completely freely in space either, but actually sandwiches the track (for electromagnetic version) or is sandwiched by the track (electrodynamic version).
It conjures that up to you, but that in itself isn't evidence that was what was meant.
The important part is the sensor is not physically touching any part of the camera when the system is active, regardless if it's being sandwiched between two parts.
What is the advantage of that? It has to have a mechanical connection, there is a flex PCB running between the sensor unit and camera. There are clearly springs maintaining a physical connection. I wonder why there would be springs, if there was 'levitation', since that would entail active position control, and could easily be arranged so that the default, non-levitated state secured the sensor when not in use (in fact, the very fact that the sensor wobbles around when the camera is turned off suggests strongly that no magnetic 'levitation' is going on.
This allows the image sensor to move freely, so it can be rotated or moved vertically or horizontally depending on the movement of the camera. It can also be used to compensate for the gentle vibration that occurs when the user is walking, such as when recording video."

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/12/17/comparison-olympus-sonys-5-axis-stabilization-work/

My understanding is there are permanent magnets and the coils are electromagnets (like seen in Maglev trains), which levitates the sensor when they are powered. The "voice coil motor" system controls the movement.
A voice coil motor is a coil with a permanent magnet. I don't think that the sensor is levitated, it is suspended.
This is in contrast with Sony which while also uses magnetic repulsion to move the sensor, it instead suspends it with ball bearings (ignore the part about springs for Olympus, see first comment on how it's a bad translation of "coil," Olympus literature never mentions springs in context to the IBIS system).

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-a7ii-...nveils-it-has-nothing-in-common-with-olympus/
I don't think it 'suspends' it with ball bearings (I'm not sure how you would). The ball bearings locate the sensor in the Z direction (along the lens axis) so that it maintains the correct distance from the lens flange and stays normal to it with those ball bearings, the sensor can only move within the plane of focus. As I read the Olympus patent, it does much the same thing but with low friction studs, likely PTFE. I don't thing if the sensor were 'levitated' in space it would be sufficiently accurately located in the image plane.

If that's the only source, it depends on 'suspension' and 'levitation' meaning the same thing, which I don't think they do,.
I don't know if "suspends" is the right word, but you got the idea anyways. Basically it fixes it in the Z-axis, while allowing free movement in the other axis.
'Levitation' would precisely not fix it in the z-axis. Any fixing would rely on an active control loop. One wonders why such an an unnecessarily complex solution would be adopted when a simple mechanical slider or bearing would do the same job simply, accurately and far cheaper and more reliable.

It's whether it is 'levitated' that is the question. What seems to have happened here that the proponents of the 'levitation' idea have not remotely shown that 'levitation' is happening. What they have is a non-authoritative source, which, if you decide to read it in a non-obvious way suggests that 'leviation' is possible. 'Possible' doesn't mean 'actual', especially when it's entirely unlikely.
 
Current Olympus cameras use magnetic levitation of the sensor for IBIS, and they may well own the patent.
Magnetic levitation? If so, you would never want your camera close to a magnetic field...

But you may be right, found this from an Olympus website:

“Turning on the OM-D camera energizes a coil and magnet arrangement that causes the image sensor to float in magnetic suspension. This allows the image sensor to move freely, so it can be rotated or moved vertically or horizontally depending on the movement of the camera. It can also be used to compensate for the gentle vibration that occurs when the user is walking, such as when recording video.”

It may be the way to go for multi-axis systems, else each axis would need some sort of bearings and guides.
As I said elsewhere, 'suspension' and 'levitation' are different things.
I found this You-Tube video of the Olympus IBIS working


It shows clearly that it isn't magnetically 'levitated'. It's held down with springs, sliding against a backplate which keeps it correctly located in the image plane.
Yes, it is magnetically levitated above the backplate: the springs act as dampeners to add necessary hysteresis into the system, as magnetic levitation offers very little inertial dampening of its own.
Same question as for John. Do you have a source that confirms this levitation idea?
 
the development cycle of the E-M1 iterations would be lengthened ?

Now, not 2 years after release of the Mk II they are leaking rumours of the E-M1x.

If the ‘X’ is released next year the development cycle has actually shortened. And I guess we can kiss goodbye to any meaningful Firmware updates for the Mk II.

I don’t think they are “hiding” anything, but neither do I think we can give much credence to their public statements or executive interviews etc where they talk about future products.

Peter
Supposedly, the new “x” model will be a new series, not a replacement for the current models. I expect the current E-M1to remain in the lineup as the Advanced Enthusiast model and will continue to relieve updates for the foreseeable future.
Yes, like the Pen-F was an experiment that sprung from the Pen line then the new thing will be the "xxxx?" that springs from the OM-D line. In both cases testing what the market will endure as far as prices go.

The old "E-" naming convention is overdue to die as they killed off the "C-" and "D-" line names long ago.

Regards..... Guy
If Panasonic’s new organic/global or whatever it is called sensor is near prime time then surely they would be happy to sell it to Olympus as well. If it is indeed as good as it seems to be that alone would make for some exciting new cameras.
How good does it 'seem to be', Tom? The papers I've read don't seem to suggest any great advantage over BSI for still photography. It doesn't appear to be a game changer. It's still a Bayer sensor and it's still got in place the major source of efficiency loss that Bayer sensors have.
 
Actually, that is a fair point you have made. You cannot manually focus the 12-32mm on an Olympus camera, and it isn't easy to manual focus on Panasonic cameras either!

But I am sure the vast majority of kit lens users only ever use auto focus with these lenses anyway. And the 12-32mm kit lens auto focuses very quickly and efficiently on Olympus or Panasonic cameras.

I bought my copy of the 12-32mm (used, mint condition and guaranteed) for just £130.

As for cropping...well, again I think you are unusual to crop so often and just throw away data. Most people try and compose their images reasonably accurately.
It is just when something in the distance interests you and you want an image of that and you do not want to shuffle lenses or pull a super zoom compact out of your pocket. Not sure where this I want to crop everything comes from. :-)

Wide angle plus high resolution just improves flexibility. The Olympus entry level just seems rather stuck at narrower field of view and lower resolution and if that is OK for most fine. I am not not talking really here about fundamental usability as much as how competitive the product is compared to the current market.
16 megapixels is plenty enough for almost anything. It is good enough for multiple National Geographic assignments, as I say.

But if you crop almost everything then sure, the more megapixels the better. Why stop at 24 MP...Surely 40 MP gives you even more cropping latitude?
 
Thanks for the link. I can only make out 3 axes shown moving, not 5. The springs are not conclusive at excluding levitation. They may be needed when powered off. I wonder if there is additionally a mechanical lock for the axes when powered off - else it would be quite fragile to shocks in transit....
The sensor only translates in two directions and rotates along the optical axis. The 5-axis name comes from the types of motion that can be compensated for through superposition of the two translation and single rotation movements.
I suspect that this is the root of the 'levitation' idea. People think, not unreasonably that for 5-axis stabilisation the sensor needs to move in five axes. Of course, as you correctly say, it doesn't. In fact, it mustn't, because it has to remain in the plane of focus. Anyway, thinking that it has to twist around the x and y axis, they try to imagine a mechanism that could do that, and when someone talks about 'magnetic suspension', conjure up an implausible technological solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
 
Some people here are utterly determined to question, belittle, deride and destroy everything Olympus does, by every possible means they can imagine ...
Believe me John, if I was really trying to 'belittle, deride and destroy' everything Olympus does, my imagination could come up with much more effective ideas other than trying to have a technically grounded discussion about how their excellent IS works.
 
Current Olympus cameras use magnetic levitation of the sensor for IBIS, and they may well own the patent.
Magnetic levitation? If so, you would never want your camera close to a magnetic field...

But you may be right, found this from an Olympus website:

“Turning on the OM-D camera energizes a coil and magnet arrangement that causes the image sensor to float in magnetic suspension. This allows the image sensor to move freely, so it can be rotated or moved vertically or horizontally depending on the movement of the camera. It can also be used to compensate for the gentle vibration that occurs when the user is walking, such as when recording video.”

It may be the way to go for multi-axis systems, else each axis would need some sort of bearings and guides.
As I said elsewhere, 'suspension' and 'levitation' are different things.
I found this You-Tube video of the Olympus IBIS working


It shows clearly that it isn't magnetically 'levitated'. It's held down with springs, sliding against a backplate which keeps it correctly located in the image plane.
Thanks for the link. I can only make out 3 axes shown moving, not 5. The springs are not conclusive at excluding levitation. They may be needed when powered off. I wonder if there is additionally a mechanical lock for the axes when powered off - else it would be quite fragile to shocks in transit....
I doubt it, for two reasons, first the sensor can be seen moving around when the camera is turned off. Second, comment on Nikon's Z7 is that it has provided such a lock, unlike any other IBIS. Actually, the moving around when the camera is off is evidence that there is no magnetic levitation, because that would be inoperative when the camera was turned off. If, is as proposed, one component of the levitating mechanism was based on permanent magnets, they would locate the sensor when the power in the electromagnet was turned off - without power in the coil, rather than repelling and 'levitating' the permanent magnet, the electromagnet is simply a chunk of steel, to which the permanent magnet will be attracted.
 
You have consistently demonstrated your abilities in the former, Bob, over many years.
 
You have consistently demonstrated your abilities in the former, Bob, over many years.
Well then, I've been doing a very bad job of it. Do you really, seriously believe that my mission in life is to undo everything that Olympus does?

This discussion started with you making what seemed to be an unlikely claim about how the Olympus IS works. I didn't tell you were wrong, I just asked if you could identify the source of this information. As ever, you made no attempt to engage in a sensible or rational conversation, you took the ad-hominem route straight away. Actually, it is of no demerit to Olympus that they have made sensible engineering decisions in the design of what is widely acknowledged to be the best IBIS system currently available. They don't need unlikely technological magic such as 'magnetic levitation' to make it perform as it does, and it would reflect badly on them as engineers had they adopted an absurdly complex system when a simple one would do.

I suspect the idea of 'levitation' came from a misunderstanding that 5-axis IS requires the sensor to move in 5 axes, and that some magic articulation mechanism was necessary for that. It is the strange mentality that requires people to make absurd claims to justify Olympus (why? the company works in the same space as every other) and when these absurd claims are questioned, treat it as an attack on Olympus. Hard to understand. Had you really been a psychologist, you might have had an explanation. But since you aren't, you haven't.
 
Thanks for the link. I can only make out 3 axes shown moving, not 5. The springs are not conclusive at excluding levitation. They may be needed when powered off. I wonder if there is additionally a mechanical lock for the axes when powered off - else it would be quite fragile to shocks in transit....
The sensor only translates in two directions and rotates along the optical axis. The 5-axis name comes from the types of motion that can be compensated for through superposition of the two translation and single rotation movements.
Here is the Olympus patent for 5 axis stabilization confirming that you are correct:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140327789A1

(this patent doesn't shed any light on the 'magnetic levitation' issue, it simply explains how the five-axis detected motion leads to calculation of xy-rotational movement of the sensor.

--
Ride easy, William.
Bob
 
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