Panasonic-Fuji organic sensor with global shutter and built-in ND

Can someone knowledgeable explain the significance of the new sensor, which will possibly be available next year in a high-end video camera? I can read the material provided by Panasonic, but as a skeptic I cannot judge the real significance, and whether there are catches.

Significance to the DSLR, ILC market?

Something comparable or better coming from some other company?

(Could not find an earlier thread on this, except one on the M43 forum a couple of years back.)

tpani said:

Can someone knowledgeable explain the significance of the new sensor, which will possibly be available next year in a high-end video camera? I can read the material provided by Panasonic, but as a skeptic I cannot judge the real significance, and whether there are catches.

Significance to the DSLR, ILC market?

Something comparable or better coming from some other company?

(Could not find an earlier thread on this, except one on the M43 forum a couple of years back.)

Click to expand...

In all of the descriptions of this "organic photosensor", going back to 2013, the OPF component is said to be a photoconductor. TechRadar state that Panasonic claim up to 450000 photoelectrons per pixel, with this technology. Organic could suggest that the technology is carbon based (doped graphene?) but given there are actual image-sensor designers on his forum, then they may be better able to clarify how it operates?

Its the humble CdS cell all grown up. ( Not really, but it will give you something to google. )




( Yes, I am joking, sort of )

With a photoconductor the current is modulated rather than generated by the impinging photons. The current accumulating in the well or capacitor that is ultimately read out is provided by an externally applied source, a cathode. So unlike the traditional sensor, where the intrinsic gain is fixed - e.g. the vague notion of quantum efficiency where N photons enter and less than N electrons leave in some fixed proportional way - increasing or decreasing the applied voltage increases or decreases the gain substantially, from zero ( closed shutter ) to very high ( very high ISO ) nearly instantly.

So it is a very different process I guess. Hopefully without sci-fi side effects. This idea has been used, actually, for video imaging tubes and other things over the decades and bolometers. The response of the photoconductors change with temperature, the voltage seen needs to be uniform, can the material be easily damaged by heat or intense light, does it "age" well? etc... This may limit general photographic use cases.

Anyway, its certainly a different way of doing things than we have seen for the last several decades.

-- Bob
http://bob-o-rama.smugmug.com -- Photos
http://www.vimeo.com/boborama/videos -- Videos
http://blog.trafficshaper.com -- Blog

Id assume that here is less electronic noise with this Technology.

you can modulate much bigger charges than photoelectrons of actual sensors.

you apply the current to the resistor and measure after shutter closure the charge collected in each Pixel.

the charge is alwasy in an Optimum range, no matter how much light actually hits the sensor, because the resistor is controlled by a Control voltage applied.

so, s/n should be much better and manily coming from on photonic noise only.

D/R should therefore also be much higher.

it might be possible in the future also to store the amount of Control voltage per each individual Pixel in the Image file, thus different Control voltages for individual Pixels could be appied so that the Pixel operates Always in the Optimum range, no matte rhow much light hits the Pixel ...

this is what I interprete from the graphics of the Pixel displayed at dpreview new page this morning… without having read anything About. https://1.img-dpreview.com/files/p/E~TS590x0~articles/1095431090/sensorcomparison.jpeg

br gusti

Invisage (now owned by Apple) developed something called Quantumfilm which seems similar. These are (according to my web search) probably lead sulfide nanoparticles in an organic carrier perhaps.

I do not know whether this is modulation of current. That it supports global shutter point (IMO) to collecting charge carriers in the layer, which then migrate into the underlying chip when a voltage is applied.

My primary worries would be lag/ghosting and stability.

Ohh, one more thought: adding gain my collecting multiple (variable number) of electrons per photon may not help noise performance, as sensors can be read out accurately enough these days it seems.

Sympa said:

Invisage (now owned by Apple) developed something called Quantumfilm which seems similar. These are (according to my web search) probably lead sulfide nanoparticles in an organic carrier perhaps.

I do not know whether this is modulation of current. That it supports global shutter point (IMO) to collecting charge carriers in the layer, which then migrate into the underlying chip when a voltage is applied.

My primary worries would be lag/ghosting and stability.

Ohh, one more thought: adding gain my collecting multiple (variable number) of electrons per photon may not help noise performance, as sensors can be read out accurately enough these days it seems.

Click to expand...

ok, Maybe you are Right - could be that the voltage only enables / disables the Pixel.

br gusti

tpani said:

Can someone knowledgeable explain the significance of the new sensor, which will possibly be available next year in a high-end video camera? I can read the material provided by Panasonic, but as a skeptic I cannot judge the real significance, and whether there are catches.

Significance to the DSLR, ILC market?

Click to expand...

If rumours are true about the electron capacity of the storage node (which does not have to worry about doping levels etc) then the DR should be substantially higher than existing sensors - if read noise is low. Whether QE is all that much better is hard to judge since it still uses a colour filter so there may not be any SNR improvement at the same ISO, but it may allow for low ISO levels - like ISO25 - with 16+EV of DR.

Other advantage is near 100% fill factor and lots of real estate for transistors and wiring, so global shutter without BSI/Stacking - could be cheaper and faster. Also potentially eliminates need for microlenses.

tpani said:

Something comparable or better coming from some other company?

Click to expand...

Don't know what happened to Quantum Film.

Personally, I am quite excited about this...

here is the text I just noww read …


so, my above Explanation was not so wrong.

BR gusti

Member said:

Other advantage is near 100% fill factor and lots of real estate for transistors and wiring, so global shutter without BSI/Stacking - could be cheaper and faster.

Click to expand...

Sure, the chip will have 100% surface area for electronics, with metal squares on top to collect the signal from the organic layer. Per-pixel electronics can use the whole pixel surface.

Member said:

Don't know what happened to Quantum Film.

Click to expand...

According to Wikipedia: bought by Apple (Invisage was the company name, I think).

I found some unblocked background material at https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-319-48933-9_37.pdf

A short quote:

tpani said:

Put simply, these are materials in which the electrical conductivity increases on exposure to light. Organic photoreceptors are thin-film devices made from organic photoconductive materials with physical, chemical, dark-electrical, and photoelectrical characteristics designed for optimum performance in specific applications. The most important application is in electrophotography, where organic photoreceptors are utilized in machines for digital printing and copying.

Click to expand...

This is why very old research papers exist on the topic: it is used in printers.

What is relatively new is to collect the generated electrons in cmos circuitry.

I don‘t know what are the specific hurdles with this technology. I assume it may be long-term stability, dark current (noise), static charges, quantum efficieny and producibilty. If Panasonic could solve *all* of this, then the impact can be significant. However, it won‘t make wonders as today‘s cmos sensors do slready operate at the edge of physical feasibilty.

--
Falk Lumo

falconeyes said:

I found some unblocked background material at https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-319-48933-9_37.pdf

A short quote:

falconeyes said:

Put simply, these are materials in which the electrical conductivity increases on exposure to light. Organic photoreceptors are thin-film devices made from organic photoconductive materials with physical, chemical, dark-electrical, and photoelectrical characteristics designed for optimum performance in specific applications. The most important application is in electrophotography, where organic photoreceptors are utilized in machines for digital printing and copying.

Click to expand...

This is why very old research papers exist on the topic: it is used in printers.

What is relatively new is to collect the generated electrons in cmos circuitry.

I don‘t know what are the specific hurdles with this technology. I assume it may be long-term stability, dark current (noise), static charges, quantum efficieny and producibilty. If Panasonic could solve *all* of this, then the impact can be significant. However, it won‘t make wonders as today‘s cmos sensors do slready operate at the edge of physical feasibilty.

Click to expand...

From what I gathered a few years back the main issue was yield.

Sympa said:

57even said:

Other advantage is near 100% fill factor and lots of real estate for transistors and wiring, so global shutter without BSI/Stacking - could be cheaper and faster.

Click to expand...

Sure, the chip will have 100% surface area for electronics, with metal squares on top to collect the signal from the organic layer. Per-pixel electronics can use the whole pixel surface.

Click to expand...

Yes, interesting possibilities

Sympa said:

Sympa said:

Don't know what happened to Quantum Film.

Click to expand...

According to Wikipedia: bought by Apple (Invisage was the company name, I think).

Click to expand...

That's right. Website no longer around, so I guess it was a full blown acquisition. Used a film covered in quantum dots I seem to remember.

falconeyes said:

I found some unblocked background material at https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-319-48933-9_37.pdf

A short quote:

falconeyes said:

Put simply, these are materials in which the electrical conductivity increases on exposure to light. Organic photoreceptors are thin-film devices made from organic photoconductive materials with physical, chemical, dark-electrical, and photoelectrical characteristics designed for optimum performance in specific applications. The most important application is in electrophotography, where organic photoreceptors are utilized in machines for digital printing and copying.

Click to expand...

This is why very old research papers exist on the topic: it is used in printers.

What is relatively new is to collect the generated electrons in cmos circuitry.

I don‘t know what are the specific hurdles with this technology. I assume it may be long-term stability, dark current (noise), static charges, quantum efficieny and producibilty. If Panasonic could solve *all* of this, then the impact can be significant. However, it won‘t make wonders as today‘s cmos sensors do slready operate at the edge of physical feasibilty.

Click to expand...

many thanks for the link!

what I found also interesting is the QE of such organic lightsensitiveresistor

© Springer International Publishing AG 2017

"Photosensitivity.

The sensitivity of the photoreceptor
to light, often expressed as the energy needed
to produce a defined decrease in surface potential,
must be mated with the exposure used in the process
in terms of exposure energy and wavelength.
This has been achieved by the synthesis and pigment
form manipulation of charge-generation materials.
Today’s high-sensitivity photoreceptors can
approach a quantum efficiency of unity for charge
generation (at a typical applied field of 20V=cm).
But, most importantly photoreceptors with lower
sensitivity can be fabricated depending on the needs
of the imaging System."

BR gusti