Fujifilm Gets It: Biggest Challenge From Smartphones

I think this is the biggest single threat to traditional digital photography. The latest smart phones are producing easy and flattering images which most people find more than acceptable.

Phone manufacters are trying harder than traditional camera manufacturers and have pretty much buried the compact camera market. For the purpose of Facebook can people tell the difference between a good smart phone and your average DSLR?
There is no pretty much the smart phone has absolutely destroyed the compact camera market
Compact and ILC units seem to be running at very similar numbers in CIPA. In what way has the compact market been absolutely destroyed?
This chart graphs camera sales from 1933-2015. Light grey is analog (film) cameras sales. Blue is compact digital. Green is digital SLR. Red is mirrorless. Gold is smartphone sales.
This chart graphs camera sales from 1933-2015. Light grey is analog (film) cameras sales. Blue is compact digital. Green is digital SLR. Red is mirrorless. Gold is smartphone sales.
snip
I snipped a couple of paragraphs to get straight to the interface between the relatively new photography enthusiast who is considering an upgrade from his/her current smartphone and the dedicated interchangeable lens camera (ILC) industry.

Again, my sense is we're seeing things much the same way.

It's no simple task to incorporate "direct-to-social" capability and a user interface that's familiar to the smartphone photographer into any existing digital ILC line. If it were easy, it already would be happening. The crux is entry- and enthusiast-level cameras, which is where the new enthusiast will look, if their budget has room for a new iPhone X.

In the long run, if a camera manufacturer is able to attract some number of new customers to buying a dedicated camera offering that experience, and if 1-in-4 or even 1-in-5 of those new customers are retained and eventually purchase higher end enthusiast or professional products, that's new customer growth the camera industry just isn't seeing, right now.

They have to try and I sense that Fuji at least recognizes the challenge. They may not have the answer but at least they know who the competition is.
The interesting thing to consider was there has been one other time historically where there was a paradigm shift in cameras that generated a bubble. Until the 1930's cameras were big - either view cameras requiring a tripod for use or "press cameras" which were nothing more than hand held view camera (often missions some movements) using either film holders or roll film holders.

The 35 mm film came along and when it became usable - particularly when 35 mm TriX came along Leica had already introduced the 35 mm camera. At that point the Leica started to replace the Press Cameras. It is not a stretch to say Leica reported all the important events from WWII through the mid 1950's - especially with the advent of the wonderful new film by Kodak Tri-X. But that didn't generate a great rush for people to buy cameras since Leica's were damn expensive. The range finder also had some limitations for all around photography. The range finder only supported a limited range of lenses fully - 28 through 135 (and 135 not well) for the Leica. There were twin lens reflex cameras which were big and weren't all that popular.

Then the reflex camera came along in the 1950 and everything changed. It caught on because it was extremely flexible. Color film had become half way descent by then. That spawned the push by Kodak to make photography easier and mainstream and hence the 126 format film cartage and the Kodak camera to shoot it. It because an instant hit for Buffy the Little League mom (we didn't play soccer in the US then) and the that era was the birth of the "camera enthusiast." This resulted in an up tick in sales and things stabilized at a nice level. Of course here there was a bubble as like any fad many tried it and not all stuck with it. But the bubble was small and its deflating didn't came a major disruption.

Then in the 1990's digital hits and no longer do you have to sent you film to a lab. Combine that with the advent of the Internet in the mid 1990's and digital photography took off. Take a shot, come home and sent it off to Grandma. This resulted in the unsustainable growth that we saw in the early to mid 2000's. But alas, cell phones started to incorporate camera chips. Then Apple introduced the iPhone - and we had the birth of the smart phone. Steve Jobs had been talking about something missing and in 2007 the iPhone was introduced. The rest is history as the users of smartphones found - "man I don't have to wait till I get home, download my images to a computer and send pictures of my precious little urchin to grandma, I just take the shot and send it - wham bam thank you Ma'am, done." This smartphone, "I can trash my walkman and iPod, trash my camera, and only carry one device that I can sent text, emails, listen to music, look at pictures and take pictures and videos that are getting better not only with every new model but with every new OS upgrade! Oh it will also take and let me make phone calls. Life is good."

Of course it took a few years for others to catch up to Apple and for the whole smartphone thing to capture a generation but it did and about 2010-2011 the wheels came off the stand along camera market. The compact market - particularly point and shoot was hit hardest but DSLR's and Mirrorless have taken it in the shorts also. Interesting I read an article some time back comporting the current state of the DSLR/high end mirrorless market with the SLR market prior to digital. Accounting for the growth rate of the SLR market - the current state of the DSLR/high end mirrorless is about at the same level as the SLR market projected as if digital had not happened. So a huge bubble was generated this time, the smartphone market poked a hole it it in about 2010/2011 and it's been deflating ever since.

Will there be a demand for high end stand alone camera in the future - of course. Will it be much more than now - probably not. Does the current generation smartphone photographer want something more - maybe but he is getting a lot more as Apple/Google/Samsun push the limits with multiple sensors, multiple lenses, AI based computational photography that he would probably get out a Fuji or Sony, etc. unless he was a spec hound. I suspect the evolution of smartphone photography will be enough for the vast majority of that segment.

So for Sony or Fuji or Nikon - pick your company to expand in that market segment which is by far the biggest today they will have to find a new paradigm. They recognize the problem but I'm not sure they have the resources to take on two of the worlds largest companies whose bread and butter is S/W and smart processing who if they see someone else doing something smart - they just buy them, all their patents and integrate it.

But the current approach which Fuji seems to be taking of shoehorning - into their current platforms will not work to penetrate that market to any extent.

I am sure at business schools around the world, this will someday (if not now) will be a required case study along with the rise and fall of the US commercial aviation industry seeing many of the original airlines that were the crown jewels at one time be forced out of business, e.g., Pan American, Trans World, etc.

--
Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt
 
There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
 
There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
So you know how every smartphone user in the world thinks and what they want? That's amazing.
 
Meh, unless the phones utilize a bigger sensor it's XF10 or Ricoh GR for me.
 
There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
 
Just completed a a whole presentation, images, graphs, videos, charts, text, how to market products, find new audiences etc all via a smartphone and tablet to an audience of traditional artisans at a convention. It was met with enthusiasm and most put their cameras to rest as they saw the expansive visual possibilities that smartphones offered, maybe not in all situations for now but in most .........

camera companies will never be able to compete
 
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I think they get it. I mean, you cannot take down cellphones, obviously, but you can entice those who like photography and start to feel constrained with their pocket camera. They want more. Most people buying point & shoot would never buy a ILC, now it's the same. But if they take the hobby, they will buy something more expensive with more options. Fuji have to work to be there, for those people, the ones that take the hobby and want to make the jump. To consider every owner of a cellphone someone taken by the competition is wrong. With or without smartphones they would never buy and expensive and complicated camera. Enthusiast are the target, and with more and more people getting closer to photography, there could be more of them. You have to entice them.

You just have to see what's happened with Instagram. That was just a plataform to share pictures of your meal o something like that. For that, your phone was more than OK. Now there are a lot of very very good photographers there. People see quality they can't reach. For most, that's OK. But for some others...they want to have those really good pictures too. There, you need more lenses...

--
I like photography because it gets me closer to some kind of art
https://500px.com/mauro_laserena
 
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I still say there was nothing that could be done to avoid the downturn, the sales of Smartphones has nothing to do with "Enthusiast" camera sales dropping, and this is entirely a case of market saturation.

I was the same as everyone else. In the mid-2000's I got my first digital camera, it was great, but I knew it could be better. Five years later, I got another (upgraded from P&S to SLR), it blew the first one out of the water (especially since I was using a tripod a lot, really I never should have had a P&S at all).

And then there was utterly no need for me to buy another camera ever again. The Canon 1100D will actually do everything I could ever want a camera to do. If I never upgrade again, no-one would be able to tell the difference (except maybe once 8K displays become common, thus, I will eventually need a 40MP APS-C camera).

There are things I want out of a new camera, but there is really no rush to buy one. Sales volume on the enthusiast market has leveled off.

On that note, I've been saying it for a while now, one of the worst things about the current "gear review" industry is it all revolves around consumers buying new products.

You will never hear a camera reviewer say "Your Old Camera Is More Than Enough" or "You Shouldn't Buy Anything". If they did say that, they wouldn't make any money from affiliate links. A reviewer can be as honest as they want about any given product, but they must recommend "something".

It would really be good to hear more reviewers point out the healthy used gear market, which is undoubtedly the best option right now, but again, no-one makes money reviewing used gear (except maybe B&H since they actually deal in used gear).
 
There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
So you know how every smartphone user in the world thinks and what they want? That's amazing.
I don't have to. Just look at the data. In 2017 Apple sold 216 million Iphones world wide. That's 216 million devices that probably cost 2-3x more than the cheapest ILC kits. And that's just Apple. Samsung, Google, LG, Sony etc all sell expensive handsets. So it's definitely not a matter of price sensitivity.

Every camera can connect to a smartphone, and in my experience it's generally pretty easy. So "connectivity" isn't the issue either. Keep in mind a lot of smartphone photographers HAVE ILCs, sitting in a closet collecting dust. Why would they buy another ILC when they've stopped using the one they have?

I've said it elsewhere- device buying jumps off of two branches- specialization vs consolidation. People who take the specialization track buy stuff like ILCs, component stereos, desktop computers etc. People who take the consolidation track do most of their electronic stuff on their smartphones. Obviously there is some overlap- I have an ILC and a smartphone- but trying to tell someone who is happy taking and looking at photos on their smartphone to buy an ILC and a big monitor or printer to make that ILC worth using is dumb.
 
SIM card. That is the ticket. Bluetooth keyboard to set up things. good control from a smart phone.
Please tell me why would I want to put a SIM card in my camera? Why would I want to pay another monthly line fee for data?
Exactly!!

Folks chiming in wanting cameras to offer more smartphone features/connectivity...

"big sigh"

As for connectivity, currently it's just 2 step process to get an image(s) from your Fuji to social media - hardly a hardship now is it!!

Dave.
 
There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
It sounds like you're saying the only way a new enthusiast photographer is going to buy an ILC is if they've never used a smartphone to do photography. I'm a smartphone shooter and I use ILCs. I'd wager 90% or more of the subscribers to this site use both a smartphone and an ILC. Each has its place. I use an ILC when I want total control over the image-making process. I think that functionality still has appeal. What young enthusiast photographers aren't willing to give up to gain that control, is the social aspect of photography and the ability to do image processing in-camera.
I guess I should define the terms I'm using more clearly. I take pictures and videos with my smartphone and have an ILC as well. But I wouldn't say I'm a "smartphone shooter". To me that is someone who only takes photos with their phones. For such a person the added control of an ILC isn't worth the cost or hassle, which is why they have no problem spending $500-1500 on a smartphone every few years but not $300-500 on an ILC kit once. And young people who want that control are buying ILCs. I'm in my 30s and a few of my friends have ILCs for that exact reason. But we are a very small minority.

Where the industry is headed is where it has generally always been. During the film era most people didn't shoot ILCs either for basically the exact same reasons. 20 million ILCs a year was an aberration driven by the transition to digital.... but now that we've completed that transition we are reverting to the mean. For most people convenience and ease of use trumps technical ability and control, so the smartphone will continue to be the general public's photographic device of choice.
 
I think it will be an uphill task except for those few who are interested in photography for it's own sake. I was at a wedding back in the summer; they were on a budget so didn't hire a pro photographer, instead they handed out the groom's Nikon D7100 and someone's D3200 to a couple of young people (late teens?). Another teenager was wandering around with his Daddy's spare Canon DSLR. All three of these were using the cameras in fully auto (which I can sort of understand, given that they were used to smartphones) and all three were using live view. I owned a D3200 years ago and it's a decent little camera, but live view is sloooow. Ditto the D7100. The results were predictably dismal...motion blur, unfocussed, the subject had moved out of frame, the bride & groom signing the register completely out of focus but the front of the desk pin sharp, etc. I did try to explain (nicely) to one of the kids that he'd be better off using the viewfinder and maybe using the zoom ring occasionally, but was unable to interpret the resulting neanderthal grunts he emitted in response. The only people using viewfinders were yours truly, Daddy (Canon) mentioned above, and one other (Sony) all of us aged 50+, and who seem to have provided the only usable record of the happy day. Apart, of course, from a lot of smartphone pictures of pouting kids.
Totally agree...

Smartphone users by and large won't be buying into the real camera industry anytime soon.

It's not all the connectivity and apps that's appealing, it's the size, fits in ya pocket and as per the saying - always with you.

I personally think cameras will become a niche market with much reduced customer base - and that will mean one thing - rising prices.

Dave.
 
It wasn't chiming in (which is generally used dismissively and thought impolite where I am) it was a considered reply, as were the other suggestions. Photography nowadays is for a lot of people about instant and easy uploading of snaps to social or display media. Not my personal thing, but it is a lot of what people do. Actually my other suggestion of actually sorting out connectivity to a smart phone, tablet and laptop so it actually works well and easily is nearer the mark. I've given up on Fuji's wi-fi connectivity, it is simply too clunky on iPhone at least. I'll try bluetooth when I can summon the resolve, which won't be immediate.
 
In Barney Britton's interview with Toshihisa Iida of Fujifilm, Mr. Iida said when asked how Fujifilm will address the challenge from smartphones?

The first thing is to do more research into what smartphone customers want from cameras. Usability, shooting options and so on. Maybe we need to start from scratch when it comes to future cameras aimed at smartphone [upgraders].

Our biggest potential challenge is from smartphones, not competitor cameras.


Fujifilm gets it and that's why full frame isn't an immediate priority. Attracting a new generation of photographers - photographers who learned image-making through their smartphones - to Fuji is the priority.
They always seem to be interested in what the "people" want. And yet, they have a tiny market share. So what's that worth?

And one has to wonder if it makes sense to go after smartphone market share. Is that an achievable goal to attack smartphone market share with dedicated cameras? I'm not saying it is or it is not, I'm saying it's not a foregone conclusion.
 
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There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
So you know how every smartphone user in the world thinks and what they want? That's amazing.
I don't have to. Just look at the data. In 2017 Apple sold 216 million Iphones world wide. That's 216 million devices that probably cost 2-3x more than the cheapest ILC kits. And that's just Apple. Samsung, Google, LG, Sony etc all sell expensive handsets. So it's definitely not a matter of price sensitivity.
I didn't say it was.
Every camera can connect to a smartphone, and in my experience it's generally pretty easy. So "connectivity" isn't the issue either. Keep in mind a lot of smartphone photographers HAVE ILCs, sitting in a closet collecting dust. Why would they buy another ILC when they've stopped using the one they have?
You are simply making assumptions with no data to back you up. I still see thousands of younger tourists in London carrying ILCs. The local camera club has record membership. There are more and more people going on courses.

So clearly there are phone owners who buy them, since all of those people have smart phones.
I've said it elsewhere- device buying jumps off of two branches- specialization vs consolidation. People who take the specialization track buy stuff like ILCs, component stereos, desktop computers etc. People who take the consolidation track do most of their electronic stuff on their smartphones. Obviously there is some overlap- I have an ILC and a smartphone- but trying to tell someone who is happy taking and looking at photos on their smartphone to buy an ILC and a big monitor or printer to make that ILC worth using is dumb.
Owning a phone does not automatically imply that someone is happy taking and looking at photos exclusively with their phone. It only requires a small percentage to be unhappy to create a decent sized market.

There are two billion phone sales a year. 1 percent of that would be 20 million ILCs. That is as big as the market for ILCs has ever been in its entire history. It's currently running at about 10-12 million, though it seems to have levelled out.

So we only need 1% of them to want something better, not all of them.
 
They definitely get it better than Kodak got it.
 
In Barney Britton's interview with Toshihisa Iida of Fujifilm, Mr. Iida said when asked how Fujifilm will address the challenge from smartphones?

The first thing is to do more research into what smartphone customers want from cameras. Usability, shooting options and so on. Maybe we need to start from scratch when it comes to future cameras aimed at smartphone [upgraders].

Our biggest potential challenge is from smartphones, not competitor cameras.


Fujifilm gets it and that's why full frame isn't an immediate priority. Attracting a new generation of photographers - photographers who learned image-making through their smartphones - to Fuji is the priority.
They always seem to be interested in what the "people" want. And yet, they have a tiny market share. So what's that worth?
It's not that tiny. It maybe niche, but the niche is getting bigger as other people abandon it. Fuji try to appeal to those who don't like the standard menu, which is probably a good approach but they do have to listen. APSC still outsells FF by 10:1 though.
And one has to wonder if it makes sense to go after smartphone market share. Is that an achievable goal to attack smartphone market share with dedicated cameras? I'm not saying it is or it is not, I'm saying it's not a foregone conclusion.
I think the challenge is to make upgrading to an ILC more appealing to the smart-phone generation, not necessarily going after some mythical market that no-one can define. How many iPhone users identify photography as the primary use of their phone? Smart phone users are just people, but they have certain expectations of the tech that they use.

I can think of several areas where cameras seem cumbersome and non-intuitive, and lacking in features that are often taken for granted by phone users. That just puts people off. They are far too complicated for one thing.

All modern cars now have an infotainment screen which is basically a tablet interface. I hate them because I have to take my eyes of the road to use them, but that's how people interface with their cars now. I predict many accidents...;-)
 
Mr Iida is saying that Fuji is thinking about what smartphone upgraders want from a camera, not what happy smartphone users want from their smartphone.

Obviously, smartphone upgraders may well want to keep features of their smartphone when they upgrade. I am sure Mr Iida is thinking along those lines, when he talks about designing a camera from scratch.

However, upgraders are also, by definition, wanting something that their smartphone does not offer. Without market research (which is sure to be a closely guarded secret) it's not clear what that is. It may not simply be a marginally better version of what they already have, which is what some people seem to be assuming.
 
Mr Iida is saying that Fuji is thinking about what smartphone upgraders want from a camera, not what happy smartphone users want from their smartphone.

Obviously, smartphone upgraders may well want to keep features of their smartphone when they upgrade. I am sure Mr Iida is thinking along those lines, when he talks about designing a camera from scratch.

However, upgraders are also, by definition, wanting something that their smartphone does not offer. Without market research (which is sure to be a closely guarded secret) it's not clear what that is. It may not simply be a marginally better version of what they already have, which is what some people seem to be assuming.
I agree. They want all the advantages of an ILC but with a more familiar interface and better connectivity - like 4G, location pinning, annotation, image editing, etc.

Maybe Zeiss is on to something?

I suspect this will mean having to license Android or OIS and using a mobile processor. Perhaps they should work with a major tablet manufacturer like Samsung.
 
There is nothing Fuji can do in the context of a standalone camera to entice smartphone users. Smartphone shooters don't want extra devices. Many would not take an ILC if you paid them. Short of making a better smartphone than Apple or Samsung, there's no way they can compete. Fuji's competitors are other camera manufacturers.
It sounds like you're saying the only way a new enthusiast photographer is going to buy an ILC is if they've never used a smartphone to do photography. I'm a smartphone shooter and I use ILCs. I'd wager 90% or more of the subscribers to this site use both a smartphone and an ILC.
I'm not sure that 90% is relevant, as I'd guess the majority of those are old enough to have had an ILC either before smartphones existed or before they had cameras good enough to actually use. And obviously, that demographic is decreasing all the time. The challenge is getting people who grew up only using a smartphone to buy into ILCs.

As a point of reference, I'm in my early 30s, so I was in college when the first iPhone came out. I already had a compact P&S, and the early phone cameras weren't good enough to use exclusively, so eventually I moved to an ILC since I was already used to carrying a camera anyway. My sister is a few years younger than me, so by the time she was in college, the technology had advanced to the point where 1) nearly everyone had a smartphone, and 2) the cameras were good enough to actually use (though still pretty bad overall). As a result, neither my sister nor the vast majority of her cohort ever bothered getting a dedicated camera, and likely never will. I work at a university and supervise several undergrad students, and I've asked them about this before. If anything, as you might expect, even fewer of them have a camera, plan to get a camera, or even know many people their age who do.

I'd be really interested to see how this compares to the % of people who owned ILCs pre-smartphones. Surely those data must be out there? IIRC, I've read that the percentage of U.S. households with a digital camera decreased by something like 10% just between 2012 and 2016 (or something close to that). I wonder what that trend looks like over a longer period of time, going back to the mid-2000s.
Each has its place. I use an ILC when I want total control over the image-making process. I think that functionality still has appeal. What young enthusiast photographers aren't willing to give up to gain that control, is the social aspect of photography and the ability to do image processing in-camera.
While I think that's part of it, a big part is simply that they don't want to give up the freedom of always having their camera with them without having to carry extra gear around. I've talked to my students about mp3 players before, and they literally laugh at the idea of having to carry, charge, and use a fully separate device for listening to their music. (Granted, the difference between using an mp3 player and a phone for audio is much smaller than the difference between using a phone and an ILC for photography.) It's really hard to convince all but the most enthusiastic that it's worth the hassle, and as phone cameras improve it will likely only get harder.
 

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