HP1999
Senior Member
For comparison look at the Fuji XE-3 with the 23, 35, 50 F 2.0 lens kit. This is a 35 mm, 50 mm and 75 mm full frame equivalent
These primes are very small
These primes are very small
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Very little progress in 5 years
- Thread starter drbroom
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So is a PenF (or E-M10) with the 17/25/45 primes.
I think I picked up on that ... I just question the (size of the) market for that camera. But it's clear to me that you're not alone. The Sony forum has had on & off chatter about a new A7000 model. It's rumored to be built like the bigger A7 models with dual control wheels and center EVF. While on the one had, that suggests Sony recognizes a market for a bigger, high end APS-C, there have also been many posts from users saying they want an upgraded A6500 - an updated body with the latest & greatest features without sacrificing the small form factor.
- Dennis
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Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
HP1999
Senior Member
Why not get the benefit of a larger sensor!
Sorry, I stripped out the comments in an attempt to aid comprehension although it appears it had the opposite effect.With apologies, I reply below to some of your comments, but since you stripped out your OP quotes some of my answers may be a bit off - I'm on iPhone and it's not convenient to be switching windows to try and synchronize with your OP.
Just as a general note, your OP was at times confusing and all I was trying to do was to sort out exactly what you were talking about in some cases, and in others to sort through what appeared to me as conflicting statements and questions. However, after reading through these and some of your other replies I do have a better picture of where you are coming from, and my bottom line here is that given the helpful replies given plus your own research, many of your questions seem more like rhetorical and I think you know enough about your own needs, likes/ dislikes, and what all is available to just make your own decision about what to do in terms of your equipment for your photo-taking.
A rhetorical question. It is what it is. If fast Wi-fi is a requirement for you, then buy accordingly...
See above point...
I guess I did misunderstand...the way you wrote your OP (as I recall) it seemed you were happy with your EM5 except for the fact that it did not do a few things (which so many later μ4/3 cams can now do).
See above point...
See above point...
See above point...
OK, I stay away from Lightroom in any form. This is a multi-shot HDR mode, not practical for a lot of work, though good for some things. I thought you were talking about a single-shot "limited" HDR-to-jpeg mode. Except for the DNG compatibility, I've had that capability for some years on iOS in two other apps, more recently in 2 more. Of course, this feature has also been available for some years in μ4/3 and other formats as well.
Then this is a weird comment, still. OIS is available on many μ4/3 lenses as well, and with certain all-Olympus and all-Panasonic camera/ lens combinations the camera makes double (synchronous) use of both the camera IBIS and the lens OIS.
It has definitely progressed. For Olympus, the EM5ii (and EM1) had improvements over EM5, and EM1ii over everything else. And, see above point regarding dual- and sync-IS.
Of course. I was just trying to understand which you were talking about (multi-frame or single-frame HDR).
I never said otherwise. Again, I was trying to determine your reference point, as I've seen many others confuse features between some native iPHone's those of and ICLCs. It is a useful feature in some circumstances. As with the multi-frame HDR (above), focus stacking requires multiple frames, so is limited in what subjects/ circumstances it will work in.
By the way, focus stacking is not available in the EM5ii, only EM1 and EM1ii. Focus bracketing, however, is available in the EM5ii, but of course you need to do some post-processing on a computer (or iPad) to stack the images.
Educated speculation. EE with 45 years designing high-tech industrial and scientific equipment and processes, mostly in the semiconductor industry and on the cutting edge. And I am very much into the experience on the manufacturing end of the chips which supply the latest smartphones and tablets, as well as the less-ambitious products such as instruments, consumer devices, and yes, cameras.
An Apple can put far more technology and at a lower price into a product which sells 50 million pieces (or more) in one year, as compared to the meager expected sales of a camera over it's useful product life (probably more like 10s of thousands of units sold, and with a product life usually only a few years at best).
But as time marches on, more processing power for lower cost does trickle down eventually, and at least for Olympus I expect 2 or 3 new cameras including a somewhat smaller one to be released during 2019. But that is also speculation.
Sure, reasonable possibilities...
Pardon me, I was only offering possible alternatives in the fog of your OP which was somewhat confusing and scattered.
IBIS in a GM5-sized body? Never. Slightly larger, OK... Have you looked inside of these cameras to see what these assemblies look like, it's not difficult to extrapolate from that. Or, to put it another way, perhaps SOMEDAY a more advanced, more compact IBIS assembly could be developed, but it would not appear first in lower-cost model.
Anyway, above you seemed to like Apple's OIS idea -- you do realize that there are lenses available now with pretty good OIS. THough, admittedly, IBIS adds some extra dimension to the capability in many cases.
It's what I call a preview. They even showed prototypes. The "roadmaps" I've ever seen go out at least a few years...
Apologies if my OP was confusing. Yes, I agree that it is primarily rhetorical, although I'd maybe use the slightly more positive term "making a statement". You are correct in that I know what photographic equipment I need, and my OP explained the thought process to arrive at the conclusion/compromise to purchase an E-P5. The only question I asked in the OP was: "am I just too niche, or is there still a market for small, capable M43 bodies?"
In saying that, many of the responses I have received have made me scrutinise many of the premises I used to reach that conclusion. The closest comparison appears to be the EM5.1 > GX9 - models which were released almost exactly 6 years apart. For my own personal criteria, I remain unconvinced the changes mandate an upgrade. I will, however, be keeping a close eye on the GX10.
One pleasant surprise I've taken from this thread is how impressive the LX100.2 is - essentially a smaller GX9 with some slight regressions/advancements (better battery, worse stabilisation, smaller EVF, better shutter speed). This makes me hold out hope they'll release another capable, compact M43 body at some point.
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www.dpreview.com
In regards to some of the smaller points:
RE: Fast WiFi - your suggestion to buy accordingly is difficult to achieve when, by your own admission, you've pointed out that few of the M43 models have fast WiFi (I can't confirm this). I think we can both agree that fast WiFi would be a desirable feature on all newly released bodies?
One thing that does appeal to me, that I only just discovered, is that the G9/GX9 uses Bluetooth LE to link to your phone and geo-tag photos. If it works seamlessly, that's a very nice QOL enhancement: https://agoodplacetostand.wordpress.com/2018/02/25/geotagging-on-the-g9/
RE: Stabilisation. I'm not disagreeing with you as I don't have any evidence otherwise, but I would genuinely love to see an objective comparison comparing EM5.1 > EM5.2 > EM1.1 > EM1.2. I've done a quick search but have been unable to find any objective comparisons.
Additionally, I can see how I have caused confusion. Essentially, I was saying I'd love a small M43 body but IBIS is only offered in the larger bodies. The competition (my iPhone) has OIS on it at all times. Thus, while the image quality is a step backwards in the iPhone, its small size is its advantage. While the image quality is a step forwards in M43, the large size (which have IBIS) is a disadvantage. There is no in-between for M43 (in saying that, the recently released EPL9 has 3-axis IBIS).
RE: Roadmap/preview - this feels like semantics. I would argue that a level of "preview" is implicit in a "roadmap". But yes, I can agree that there is currently no roadmap for M43 bodies, thus we can only speculate.
RE: Focus stacking - according to Olympus the EM5.2 introduced focus stacking with Firmware 4.0: https://asia.olympus-imaging.com/product/dslr/em5mk2/feature7.html
This retro-fitting implies that the TruePic VII processor from 2015 (3 years ago) is capable of this level of computation. What conclusion would you draw from this? I would make the assumption that Olympus is purposely withholding this from the EM10 for better product segmentation.
RE: Computational power - yes, I agree with you that Olympus cannot compete with Apple's economies of scale. However, this argument is somewhat myopic - would you be making the same argument if Olympus were unable to compete with Sony or Panasonic? Per these photographic companies, Apple is a competitor to Olympus. If Olympus cannot compete with Apple, then they will lose marketshare and eventually cease to exist.
Let me make this clear, I do not want this to happen. I enjoy taking photos with physical equipment but the life I lead, and plan to lead (remember, per OP, that I'm looking for a camera to take travelling), necessitates a small, light, capable camera. I believe the Apple/Googles of the world are building up to this capability faster than Olympus are shrinking down to this.
For example: https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/09/apple-has-acquired-imaging-sensor-startup-invisage-technologies/
On top of this, they are releasing technology that is easier to use (for example, the Lightroom HDR which maps, tones, de-ghosts, etc). Here some examples taken with the RAW HDR feature:
Night:
Day:
JosephScha
Veteran Member
I now have a G9. I know it's not GM5 size. It's pretty chunky. But it does amazing things, has two UHS II SD card slots, and the color in JPEGs is better than in previous Panasonic cameras (of course Oly always had good colors, so you may not notice, but it's a big deal to me to be able to use OOC JPEGs).
So, PLEASE try a G9. You might just like it. I think it addresses your complaints. It certainly has wifi transfer, I've used it.
And of course it has focus peaking.
I've never tried to get shutter speed even at 1/4000 no less above that, but even in bright daylight you don't need that at ISO 200 and some reasonable f/stop. Of course if you WANT to use f/1.4 in full daylight, then perhaps you could bump up against shutter speed limit.
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js
So, PLEASE try a G9. You might just like it. I think it addresses your complaints. It certainly has wifi transfer, I've used it.
And of course it has focus peaking.
I've never tried to get shutter speed even at 1/4000 no less above that, but even in bright daylight you don't need that at ISO 200 and some reasonable f/stop. Of course if you WANT to use f/1.4 in full daylight, then perhaps you could bump up against shutter speed limit.
--
js
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3dwag
Senior Member
NP, I'm just making excuses for my poor short term memorySorry, I stripped out the comments in an attempt to aid comprehension although it appears it had the opposite effect.With apologies, I reply below to some of your comments, but since you stripped out your OP quotes some of my answers may be a bit off - I'm on iPhone and it's not convenient to be switching windows to try and synchronize with your OP.
Just as a general note, your OP was at times confusing and all I was trying to do was to sort out exactly what you were talking about in some cases, and in others to sort through what appeared to me as conflicting statements and questions. However, after reading through these and some of your other replies I do have a better picture of where you are coming from, and my bottom line here is that given the helpful replies given plus your own research, many of your questions seem more like rhetorical and I think you know enough about your own needs, likes/ dislikes, and what all is available to just make your own decision about what to do in terms of your equipment for your photo-taking.
A rhetorical question. It is what it is. If fast Wi-fi is a requirement for you, then buy accordingly...
See above point...
I guess I did misunderstand...the way you wrote your OP (as I recall) it seemed you were happy with your EM5 except for the fact that it did not do a few things (which so many later μ4/3 cams can now do).
See above point...
See above point...
See above point...
OK, I stay away from Lightroom in any form. This is a multi-shot HDR mode, not practical for a lot of work, though good for some things. I thought you were talking about a single-shot "limited" HDR-to-jpeg mode. Except for the DNG compatibility, I've had that capability for some years on iOS in two other apps, more recently in 2 more. Of course, this feature has also been available for some years in μ4/3 and other formats as well.
Then this is a weird comment, still. OIS is available on many μ4/3 lenses as well, and with certain all-Olympus and all-Panasonic camera/ lens combinations the camera makes double (synchronous) use of both the camera IBIS and the lens OIS.
It has definitely progressed. For Olympus, the EM5ii (and EM1) had improvements over EM5, and EM1ii over everything else. And, see above point regarding dual- and sync-IS.
Of course. I was just trying to understand which you were talking about (multi-frame or single-frame HDR).
I never said otherwise. Again, I was trying to determine your reference point, as I've seen many others confuse features between some native iPHone's those of and ICLCs. It is a useful feature in some circumstances. As with the multi-frame HDR (above), focus stacking requires multiple frames, so is limited in what subjects/ circumstances it will work in.
By the way, focus stacking is not available in the EM5ii, only EM1 and EM1ii. Focus bracketing, however, is available in the EM5ii, but of course you need to do some post-processing on a computer (or iPad) to stack the images.
Educated speculation. EE with 45 years designing high-tech industrial and scientific equipment and processes, mostly in the semiconductor industry and on the cutting edge. And I am very much into the experience on the manufacturing end of the chips which supply the latest smartphones and tablets, as well as the less-ambitious products such as instruments, consumer devices, and yes, cameras.
An Apple can put far more technology and at a lower price into a product which sells 50 million pieces (or more) in one year, as compared to the meager expected sales of a camera over it's useful product life (probably more like 10s of thousands of units sold, and with a product life usually only a few years at best).
But as time marches on, more processing power for lower cost does trickle down eventually, and at least for Olympus I expect 2 or 3 new cameras including a somewhat smaller one to be released during 2019. But that is also speculation.
Sure, reasonable possibilities...
Pardon me, I was only offering possible alternatives in the fog of your OP which was somewhat confusing and scattered.
IBIS in a GM5-sized body? Never. Slightly larger, OK... Have you looked inside of these cameras to see what these assemblies look like, it's not difficult to extrapolate from that. Or, to put it another way, perhaps SOMEDAY a more advanced, more compact IBIS assembly could be developed, but it would not appear first in lower-cost model.
Anyway, above you seemed to like Apple's OIS idea -- you do realize that there are lenses available now with pretty good OIS. THough, admittedly, IBIS adds some extra dimension to the capability in many cases.
It's what I call a preview. They even showed prototypes. The "roadmaps" I've ever seen go out at least a few years...
.Actually, I'm doing this on my iPad now, and oddly it does not allow me to delete just the earlier posts, only all or nothing -- must be an iOS 12 vs DP Review issue...
OK, so to answer to your question directly now -- No, I don't think that you are "too niche". There is definitely still a market for small, and (my emphasis) *more capable* μ4/3 bodies. I think that we are just seeing the last few years in particular more emphasis on the larger, more ergonomic bodies with the most advanced features (for example high-speed, high-res video and still high fps / readout require more heatsinking, and better ergonomics include more hardware buttons and switches, which also require more real estate), and the smaller bodies have taken a sort of back seat to some degree to less-featured, lower cost approaches.
Again I'm just speculating, but looking at the the overall market trends (which is a swinging pendulum) and the emergence of a lot more mirrorless bodies in larger formats, I would not be surprised if we see a few smaller but more highly featured bodies in the coming 12 months.
Although, to be fair the EM5i was Olympus' μ4/3 flagship at the time, whereas the GX9 is a lower mid-range camera which may not have all the bells and whistles but is still quite capable and in many ways advanced compared to its forbears of 5 years ago.
Actually, I never said nor meant to imply that any μ4/3 had fast WiFi (I really don't know), I was making a throw-away comment which meant that if this were a really important feature, along with some other features not available in μ4/3, and you were aware of it existing on another model even if it's not μ4/3 that you might should consider it.
Ι have owned all of these cameras, and I can only tell you what I have experienced myself shooting thousands of photos on each one. The epitome of all of these cameras' IBIS has been my EM1ii with the 12-100mm f/4 Pro lens -- that combination is almost magical for me in terms of how slow a shutter speed I can hold with that combo (the lens also has OIS and the EM1ii syncs both IS systems, achieving better stabilization than is possible with either on its own).
One failure of OIS is that there is no way to compensate effectively for rotation of the sensor plane, which is one of the most common errors of less-experienced photographers. The better 5-axis IBIS systems however can mitigate that type of camera shake. Just an observation. Also, I can achieve far lower shutter speeds with my EM1ii/ 12-100mm combo and to a lesser degree with other lenses compared to what I can achieve with my iPhone Xs Max. Just saying.
Gaakkk! You are correct! I recall now, it was the EM1i which did not do in-camera stacking, only focus bracketing. This was a late enhancement to the EM5ii.
One thing about the "TruePic VII processor", I've never been convinced that when we see that or later iterations in any camera that it means that the exact same CPU, GPU, and memory are used for a given processor model in every model of camera body using that processor model name, only that the hardware does support certain feature calls and the real processor model number is determined by the firmware having certain routines coded (and able to basically run the main routines on any camera having that processor model designation). In other words, even though a model of EM10, EM1, and EM5 may all claim to use a particular TruePic nnn processor", that does not mean that the actual controller chips are exactly the same; the most advanced model may have faster clock speeds and more RAM than the lower model(s).
Or, it could be as you say and Olympus are just withholding some features from the lower models.
It used to be that camera processors (as well as other consumer and low volume equipment) were several generations behind the latest technology node, and that the family of processors (technology node) was chosen years before the product was finally realeased to the public. That gap may have closed to some degree now with the likes of Apple, Samsung, Google etc. speeding up advancement to the next technology node for relatively lower cost, battery powered devices at an unprecedented rate with the huge global sales volumes we are seeing now with these devices. It is also getting to the point where 2-year-old technology is more than adequate to do some amazing stuff now, but on the other hand memory hasn't gotten that much cheaper and is still required for heavier processing, and as well such complex chips and operations still have to be programmed which requires a lot more resources than some of the more mundane basic operations.
Anyway, clearly Olympus must compete at some level with the other camera manufacturers, and cameras in general have to evolve and compete with market trends and shifts (such as smartphone camera competition) to stay in business. This is another whole discussion, far beyond the scope of this thread, eh?
Thanks for the links, some nice images all. I've been doing HDR and focus stacking for at least 12 years now, it is amazing what processing power some of these smartphones have now. They really are hand-held powerful computers. But basically Apple have added a $50 camera assembly to a $500-ish computer which also has a phone. If that camera assembly starts getting too large, then that smartphone will start losing market share.
I also note that I've observed first hand how there have been a few times during my lifetime where a generation of amateur photographers started buying prosumer cameras and it became a fad, but then some other simple everyman small, light format/ system came out and most of those people realized that they hated lugging around those big complicated beasts and mothballed them in favor of the everyman system.
I remember when I was a kid in the 50s we had these little 127 rollfilm cameras - Brownies and Hawkeyes -- that my family and all of my relatives' and friends' families also had. Then I remember my older sister and her friends starting to by the fixed-lens 35mm cameras with auto exposure such as the Yashica Electro 35 and the Konicas and the Olympuses etc. But that got a bit tiring and the Instamatic drop-in cartridges seemed to replace those for a while. Then in the late 70s everyone it seems including my little brother and even my mother started buying the smaller 35mm SLRs, such as Pentax ME and Pentax MX and all the other brands...usually had only two lenses, no more than that. But then what in Japan they called the "Baka-chon kamera" (literally a fool's thing camera) became popular in the 80s, these were the compact 35mm film cameras with built in zoom, auto exposure, autofocus, and drop-in film auto load and rewind cameras, so now all those 35mm SLRs were being forgotten.
And I almost forgot the APS cameras, those little drop-in cartridges which replaced the larger 35mm film Baka-chon kameras. Those came about in the late 90s and into the early 2000s...
The next big thing for "everyman" was in the mid-late 2000s when affordable compact digital cameras started becoming affordable and prevalent. I was stil shooting film when I bought my first digital camera, a Canon S45. And then my wife wanted a little Canon and then our daughter... I think I still have a few of those laying around!
I think that a similar thing has happened the last 10 or 12 years with DSLRs -- as they became affordable and more automated, everybody and their mother started wanting one, to take pictures like the big guys, and in fact the format image quality was increasing rapidly and the prices coming down. But again, I have observed so many who thought they were interested in serious photography and bought their Nikon D80 (just an example) and maybe had 2 or 3 lenses, but eventually the cameras just got to be too much to lug around and hey the quality of smartphone cameras has in fact skyrocketed these past few years and well, "everybody" has a smart phone so...
It's all quite interesting.
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-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas
¯\_|’_’|_/¯
http://www.pbase.com/3dwag/image/97156660.jpg
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gary0319
Forum Pro
The Olympus 12-100 Pro OIS also syncs with the IBIS on the Pen F and E-M5 II models. It has had an amazing effect on shooting with my Pen F.NP, I'm just making excuses for my poor short term memorySorry, I stripped out the comments in an attempt to aid comprehension although it appears it had the opposite effect.With apologies, I reply below to some of your comments, but since you stripped out your OP quotes some of my answers may be a bit off - I'm on iPhone and it's not convenient to be switching windows to try and synchronize with your OP.
Just as a general note, your OP was at times confusing and all I was trying to do was to sort out exactly what you were talking about in some cases, and in others to sort through what appeared to me as conflicting statements and questions. However, after reading through these and some of your other replies I do have a better picture of where you are coming from, and my bottom line here is that given the helpful replies given plus your own research, many of your questions seem more like rhetorical and I think you know enough about your own needs, likes/ dislikes, and what all is available to just make your own decision about what to do in terms of your equipment for your photo-taking.
A rhetorical question. It is what it is. If fast Wi-fi is a requirement for you, then buy accordingly...
See above point...
I guess I did misunderstand...the way you wrote your OP (as I recall) it seemed you were happy with your EM5 except for the fact that it did not do a few things (which so many later μ4/3 cams can now do).
See above point...
See above point...
See above point...
OK, I stay away from Lightroom in any form. This is a multi-shot HDR mode, not practical for a lot of work, though good for some things. I thought you were talking about a single-shot "limited" HDR-to-jpeg mode. Except for the DNG compatibility, I've had that capability for some years on iOS in two other apps, more recently in 2 more. Of course, this feature has also been available for some years in μ4/3 and other formats as well.
Then this is a weird comment, still. OIS is available on many μ4/3 lenses as well, and with certain all-Olympus and all-Panasonic camera/ lens combinations the camera makes double (synchronous) use of both the camera IBIS and the lens OIS.
It has definitely progressed. For Olympus, the EM5ii (and EM1) had improvements over EM5, and EM1ii over everything else. And, see above point regarding dual- and sync-IS.
Of course. I was just trying to understand which you were talking about (multi-frame or single-frame HDR).
I never said otherwise. Again, I was trying to determine your reference point, as I've seen many others confuse features between some native iPHone's those of and ICLCs. It is a useful feature in some circumstances. As with the multi-frame HDR (above), focus stacking requires multiple frames, so is limited in what subjects/ circumstances it will work in.
By the way, focus stacking is not available in the EM5ii, only EM1 and EM1ii. Focus bracketing, however, is available in the EM5ii, but of course you need to do some post-processing on a computer (or iPad) to stack the images.
Educated speculation. EE with 45 years designing high-tech industrial and scientific equipment and processes, mostly in the semiconductor industry and on the cutting edge. And I am very much into the experience on the manufacturing end of the chips which supply the latest smartphones and tablets, as well as the less-ambitious products such as instruments, consumer devices, and yes, cameras.
An Apple can put far more technology and at a lower price into a product which sells 50 million pieces (or more) in one year, as compared to the meager expected sales of a camera over it's useful product life (probably more like 10s of thousands of units sold, and with a product life usually only a few years at best).
But as time marches on, more processing power for lower cost does trickle down eventually, and at least for Olympus I expect 2 or 3 new cameras including a somewhat smaller one to be released during 2019. But that is also speculation.
Sure, reasonable possibilities...
Pardon me, I was only offering possible alternatives in the fog of your OP which was somewhat confusing and scattered.
IBIS in a GM5-sized body? Never. Slightly larger, OK... Have you looked inside of these cameras to see what these assemblies look like, it's not difficult to extrapolate from that. Or, to put it another way, perhaps SOMEDAY a more advanced, more compact IBIS assembly could be developed, but it would not appear first in lower-cost model.
Anyway, above you seemed to like Apple's OIS idea -- you do realize that there are lenses available now with pretty good OIS. THough, admittedly, IBIS adds some extra dimension to the capability in many cases.
It's what I call a preview. They even showed prototypes. The "roadmaps" I've ever seen go out at least a few years...
Actually, I'm doing this on my iPad now, and oddly it does not allow me to delete just the earlier posts, only all or nothing -- must be an iOS 12 vs DP Review issue...
OK, so to answer to your question directly now -- No, I don't think that you are "too niche". There is definitely still a market for small, and (my emphasis) *more capable* μ4/3 bodies. I think that we are just seeing the last few years in particular more emphasis on the larger, more ergonomic bodies with the most advanced features (for example high-speed, high-res video and still high fps / readout require more heatsinking, and better ergonomics include more hardware buttons and switches, which also require more real estate), and the smaller bodies have taken a sort of back seat to some degree to less-featured, lower cost approaches.
Again I'm just speculating, but looking at the the overall market trends (which is a swinging pendulum) and the emergence of a lot more mirrorless bodies in larger formats, I would not be surprised if we see a few smaller but more highly featured bodies in the coming 12 months.
Although, to be fair the EM5i was Olympus' μ4/3 flagship at the time, whereas the GX9 is a lower mid-range camera which may not have all the bells and whistles but is still quite capable and in many ways advanced compared to its forbears of 5 years ago.
Actually, I never said nor meant to imply that any μ4/3 had fast WiFi (I really don't know), I was making a throw-away comment which meant that if this were a really important feature, along with some other features not available in μ4/3, and you were aware of it existing on another model even if it's not μ4/3 that you might should consider it.
Ι have owned all of these cameras, and I can only tell you what I have experienced myself shooting thousands of photos on each one. The epitome of all of these cameras' IBIS has been my EM1ii with the 12-100mm f/4 Pro lens -- that combination is almost magical for me in terms of how slow a shutter speed I can hold with that combo (the lens also has OIS and the EM1ii syncs both IS systems, achieving better stabilization than is possible with either on its own).
Samuel Dilworth
Senior Member
gary0319: you’ve quoted nearly 5,000 words – pages and pages of impenetrably nested quotes – only to insert 30 words almost invisibly in the middle.
Your 30 words were well worth posting, but this forum would be so much easier to read if you – and the many others who do this – would quote only the relevant section they are replying to. Or not quote at all, as is often best.
Your 30 words were well worth posting, but this forum would be so much easier to read if you – and the many others who do this – would quote only the relevant section they are replying to. Or not quote at all, as is often best.
gary0319
Forum Pro
Point taken, sorry....just got lazy when posting from my iPad.
Jacques Cornell
Forum Pro
I'm not interested in arguing.Maybe I should have been more explicit about price ranges. I want a smaller body at the price range of the EM5. When I purchased the EM5.1 that was at the top of the price range, since then the EM1.2 has created a new price bracket. The EM5 is now the "cheaper" body.
I disagree with your analysis re: computing power. You are ignoring the progress that chip manufacturing has made - both in computational power and memory bandwidth. The processors are now a fraction of the size, heat and power consumption has been reduced, and performance is multiplied. In the last 7 years ARM processors have gone from being manufactured at 45nm to 7nm (for example, Apple A5 @ 45nm, 2011, to Apple A12 @ 7nm in 2018).
Graph showcasing performance increases up til Apple A10 (2 years ago?)
I understand that with a small size comes trade-offs - namely battery and limitations to heat-dissipation (the RX100 has a 4k recording limit due this).
What am I arguing is that M43 does not appear to have been kept progress with these massive changes in the industry. From what I understand of the camera industry is that they're in a bit of a catch-22 scenario. Camera sales seem to be dropping overall (correlated with the rise of camera phones). Thus, manufacturers need to be selective about their investments to enable maximum return. They do not appear to be focusing on investments that result in better products for me (small, capable bodies) thus pushing me towards to the camera phones that they are most likely losing market share to.
Where I will concede a blind spot in my argument is the recent release of the LX100.2 which is almost exactly what I want, I'd just prefer a M43 mount.
Using your argument of computational power
or justifying.
Frankly, I've lost interest in this whole conversation. The idea that MFT has shown "very little progress in 5 years" because it hasn't produced the camera you want is simply silly, and whether it's possible to produce the camera you want at the price you want is a pie-in-the-sky exercise you'll have to pursue without me.
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"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
Landscape & Wedding Photographer - Jacques Cornell
Jacques Cornell Photography - landscape, travel, portrait and art reproduction
jacquescornell.photography
Happening Photos - Event Photography in New York City
Event Photography in New York City and Around the World - conferences, sales meetings, fundraisers and more.
happening.photos
I have the exact same problem.
All of the gear I purchased around 5 years ago has made almost zero progress in the 5 years since.
This has forced me to buy updated equipment to benefit from what progress there has been in the last 5 years. In fact the newer lenses and bodies just highlight how problematic it is that earlier purchases have not progressed to keep up - I think it is a plot by the manufacturers to force me to buy new stuff all the time!
If only the cameras and lenses I bought years ago could just stay up to date it would save me a lot of money. I mean they recently released a firmware update to the GH2, and all it did was improve behaviour with 3rd party batteries.... no IBIS, no 4k video, no wifi or bluetooth or dual memory cards.... all these years later and the GH2 I bought all those years ago still has none of these modern features!
All of the gear I purchased around 5 years ago has made almost zero progress in the 5 years since.
This has forced me to buy updated equipment to benefit from what progress there has been in the last 5 years. In fact the newer lenses and bodies just highlight how problematic it is that earlier purchases have not progressed to keep up - I think it is a plot by the manufacturers to force me to buy new stuff all the time!
If only the cameras and lenses I bought years ago could just stay up to date it would save me a lot of money. I mean they recently released a firmware update to the GH2, and all it did was improve behaviour with 3rd party batteries.... no IBIS, no 4k video, no wifi or bluetooth or dual memory cards.... all these years later and the GH2 I bought all those years ago still has none of these modern features!
Dave Andrade
Leading Member
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Literally the next model in that lineup, the EM5 mark 2 has all those options.
Literally the next version....
Michael Benveniste
Veteran Member
That's odd. I believe I'm seeing progress in my results now from the 6-year old digital gear I still own. I'm even getting improved results from my 20-30 year old film gear, at least when I use Tri-X or Delta 100. How is that possible? It couldn't it be due to adjusting the nut behind the finder, could it? (
added for the sarcasm impaired).While I would have loved to have seen Panasonic or Olympus offer PDAF at a lower price point, it didn't stop me from buying the camera I did. Even though it's a 2016 model, I fully expect to be using for at least 5-7 years.
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Light travels at 2.13085531 × 10^14 smoots per fortnight. Catch some today!
Because if I actually needed a bigger sensor I'd be shooting FF. Just don't see any advantage at all to APS-C.
HP1999
Senior Member
So how is micro 4/3's an advantage over APS-C unless we are fixated on size and not resulting quality
I see the benefits of each sensor size choice.
Certain types of photogprahy like events/corporate/non profit stuff, weddings, mitzvahs, people heavy stuff MFT's wont do the job. I have never seen a pro photographer with anything other than full frame. I have done these things both with a DSLR and FF mirrorless
Landscapes a p&s camera can do that.
So that said is your criticizing APS-C from personal experience or not and what FF experience do you have.
My use for MFT's is mostly for the super zoom advantages
Adielle
Senior Member
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Then I guess you don't see many photographers. I've seen many professional photographers with APS-C cameras, and some with MFT (just not popular here).
Dave Andrade
Leading Member
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I've seen a few pro wedding photographers using micro four thirds myself.
This is a generalization.
And for what it's worth, people should rethink how they perceive full frame. Of course it has it's benefits, but to insinuate that the ONLY benefits of micro four thirds is size is entirely missing the point.
Trevor Carpenter
Forum Pro
That's the biggest rubbish I have ever read on these forums and believe me there has been some rubbish.
Jacques Cornell
Forum Pro
I'm a full-time corporate event pro shooting MFT. See my websites below and my profile and gear list on DPR. I shot Canon 1D & 1Ds MkI, MkII and MkIII before switching.
If you can't shoot it with MFT, you could never have shot it with 35mm film.
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