Sony's take on mirrorless cameras

Stonedhouse said:

Anonymous Pi said:

Clayton1985 said:

Anonymous Pi said:

Clayton1985 said:

Thoughts R Us said:

TQGroup said:

Kenji Tanaka, VP and Senior General Manager of Sony's Business Unit 1, Digital Imaging Group, said;

"Honestly speaking, I don’t care about competitors, I care about the customers."

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews...care-about-competitors-i-care-about-customers

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If you believe that statement from the Sony VP then I've got a bridge to sell you

Of course he cares about the competition...and at this point he probably cares a whole lot because he just a whole lot more of it.

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errrr.... I believe you're overthinking this a bit. I think he is saying that if they listen to customers and improve where customers want them to improve the competition part will take care of itself.

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You don't seriously buy into that marketing fluff, do you? I mean, really, it doesn't get much fluffier.

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I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's really the opposite of marketing.

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This, "Honestly speaking, I don’t care about competitors, I care about the customers," is not the opposite of marketing. It's fluffier than the lambswool floor mats in a Rolls-Royce.

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I'm new to photography and only come here to learn so I rarely post - but I do know about manufacturing having spent 30+ years in depth within the industry. Many of those years have been studying the Japanese culture within manufacturing especially the Lean ethos which was the well established foundation companies such as Toyota used to leapfrog major competitors. A core fundamental of the Japanese / Lean Manufacturing ethos is :

"Understand fully what the customer sees as perfection, and then dedicate your time in trying to deliver that perfection................ Every second spent worrying about the competition is one second less working to deliver that perfection".

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Sorry, I don't want to get too involved, but this is fundamentally flawed. :-(

When Nokia was king with their "connecting people" by-line, could anyone imagine asking a customer what "perfection" was from a phone?

Well, I can and actually did in exactly that research for another unnamed mobile phone manufacturer. I can absolutely assure you that what the customers were demanding was nothing resembling a modern smartphone. Not even within a bull's roar.

In fact, those phone companies that actually followed the customer demands of the time are either bit players or not with us today in the mobile phone business.

There are other major factors at play and the approach described above applies to the PDCA cycle (continuous improvement) in a manufacturing environment after the product has been specified by marketing/product development.

Andrew

Stonedhouse said:

Basically if you follow only the customer, and get it right, you do not have to worry about the competition. If you follow the competition to follow the customer then you are a step behind.

Whether that concept is flawed or not is up for debate but what is not for debate is whether the Sony VP speaks his mind.

PS - it is purely coincidental I own a Sony - if I owned any other brand I'd still type the above.

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TQGroup said:

Bob Janes said:

Anonymous Pi said:

Bob Janes said:

chambeshi said:

Bob Janes said:

Thoughts R Us said:

Sony and Samsung have been caught before paying troll farms to spread negative criticism of competitors in public forums.

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You really should substantiate this allegation.

Where is your evidence?

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Sadly, the egos promoted in brand bashing have turned the arena of photographic reviews etc distinctly grubby. This is besides the clutter of burgeoning trolling and misinformation. There's too much at stake chasing consumers with cunning and/or aggressive online advertising and worse.

http://taipeigeek.blogspot.com/2018...rust-youtube-channels-like-tony-northrup.html

http://taipeigeek.blogspot.com/2018/05/jason-lanier-removed-as-sony-artisan.html

http://pastehtml.com/view/1eejiqj.html

One has to be careful these days what one even loads on a browser, let alone tries to read; if this is even possible, too often yet another sloppily made video.

I steer well clear of these murky sites

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Are you suggesting that any of these links provide evidence of Sony or Samsung paying troll farms to attack competitors?

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Well, I didn't look at those links, but this one indicates that Samsung has engaged in the practice,

https://www.bgr.in/news/samsung-fined-for-paying-off-trolls-to-bash-htc-on-the-web/

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That is disappointing to hear of, but it was a single instance back in 2013; I doubt that they would repeat it again as reputational damage is a real problem for big companies (as with some of the recent diesel emissions scandals in the automotive industry).

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Hmmm. That could be a questionable assumption:

The following is datelined 5 October 2018 from Roy Morgan Research:

"Three years after the emissions reporting scandal broke worldwide, Volkswagen has regained the top spot in the non-luxury-vehicle brand-loyalty stakes in Australia, according to the latest survey data from Roy Morgan.

Of those planning to buy a new vehicle in the next four years, a full 61.5 per cent of VW drivers said in June that they would be looking to buy the same brand – marginally ahead of the 59.6 per cent of Toyota drivers who said they would remain brand-loyal.

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I think other companies have also been implicated which takes some of the the heat off VW (not that 'everyone does it' is any sort of valid excuse) - my understanding is that sales of diesel cars in general is still well down.

TQGroup said:

As of June 2018, the next highest levels of loyalty after VW and Toyota were Mazda (57.6%), Subaru (54.4%), Honda (50.9%) and Hyundai (47.7%)."

It seems that, with proper management, reputational damage may be rather fleeting.

TQGroup said:

TQGroup said:

Here's a link that verifies that such an "industry" exists,

https://www.newsweek.com/online-trolling-can-lead-financial-rewards-study-finds-991920

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That article suggests that some trolls pose as customer service reps to give a false (negative) impression - that is not what was being suggested by @Thoughts, which was that forums (such as this one) are being targeted by Sony funded trolls - and no evidence of that has been presented.

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If this was true, and hopefully it is not, finding proof may be difficult unless someone totally screws up. Just how would one go about proving posting was done for payment?

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But Thoughts claims that Sony have been caught before paying troll farms to spread negative criticism of competitors in public forums. If they have been caught, it should be possible to provide some evidence.

TQGroup said:

TQGroup said:

TQGroup said:

And no one has been following the news who doesn't know that all kinds of paid trolling and sockpuppeting is going on online, for purposes from the commercial to the political.

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The sockpuppeting thing is annoying, but it is pretty easy to spot - two accounts backing each other up, one with a recent creation date and both using the same phraseology - generally such accounts avoid having picture galleries or much in the way of personal info.

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Or maybe they have figured that out and actually put in a fair bit of personal info. How is anyone going to check that out? I agree that most will have recent creation dates ;-)

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It helps the MODs as they can check the IP address being posted under to check that a person supposedly based in London isn't using an IP address out of somewhere completely different all the time. A gallery is actually a pretty good indicator of whether someone is real - particularly if the exif is intact.

TQGroup said:

I think the best way, as some have done, is to politely but firmly challenge the purpose and relevance of the post. If the poster becomes unpleasant, just do not respond. I know that is easier said than done :-(

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TQGroup said:

When Nokia was king with their "connecting people" by-line, could anyone imagine asking a customer what "perfection" was from a phone?

Well, I can and actually did in exactly that research for another unnamed mobile phone manufacturer. I can absolutely assure you that what the customers were demanding was nothing resembling a modern smartphone. Not even within a bull's roar.

In fact, those phone companies that actually followed the customer demands of the time are either bit players or not with us today in the mobile phone business.

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That more or less coincides with Steve Jobs' insight that, “It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.”

TQGroup said:

Anonymous Pi said:

Stonedhouse said:

Whether that concept is flawed or not is up for debate but what is not for debate is whether the Sony VP speaks his mind.

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Why would you think that is off limits for debate? In your experience, are corporate executives always 100% honest when speaking publicly about their corporate priorities, or do many of them, Japanese or not, tend to play up their "heartfelt concern for their customers" to the point of excess?

There's Lean theory and then there's Lean practice. In practice, executives aren't nearly as concerned with their customers as they are about their own companies bottom line and how the competition might affect that, regardless of how much time they spend trying to figure out what they can get customers to buy.

His statement was pure PR/marketing-speak. Nothing more and nothing less.

(BTW, I'm a huge fan of Apple and Apple products, but when Tim Cook says that Apple's primary goal is to, "delight our customers," I still roll my eyes.)

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The "delight our customers" is a steal from Xerox in the 1990's. :-D

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/understanding-customer-delight-and-outrage/

Dr. N. Kano, a Japanese educator, postulated a model of quality involving 3 levels. His top level was 'excitement"; i.e. pleasant surprises of value. Xerox called it delight

https://www.kanomodel.com/

Hope this helps...

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Interesting. I'm still going to roll my eyes though, it's largely involuntary.

Bob Janes said:

Anonymous Pi said:

Bob Janes said:

Are you suggesting that any of these links provide evidence of Sony or Samsung paying troll farms to attack competitors?

Click to expand...

Well, I didn't look at those links, but this one indicates that Samsung has engaged in the practice,

https://www.bgr.in/news/samsung-fined-for-paying-off-trolls-to-bash-htc-on-the-web/

Click to expand...

That is disappointing to hear of, but it was a single instance back in 2013; I doubt that they would repeat it again as reputational damage is a real problem for big companies (as with some of the recent diesel emissions scandals in the automotive industry).

Click to expand...

If anything, my impression is that the use of paid trolling and sockpuppeting is increasing. Getting caught once probably doesn't dissuade companies inclined to use these sort of "marketing" techniques, it probably just makes them more careful not to get caught again.

Bob Janes said:

TQGroup said:

Bob Janes said:

Anonymous Pi said:

Bob Janes said:

chambeshi said:

Bob Janes said:

Thoughts R Us said:

Sony and Samsung have been caught before paying troll farms to spread negative criticism of competitors in public forums.

Click to expand...

You really should substantiate this allegation.

Where is your evidence?

Click to expand...

Sadly, the egos promoted in brand bashing have turned the arena of photographic reviews etc distinctly grubby. This is besides the clutter of burgeoning trolling and misinformation. There's too much at stake chasing consumers with cunning and/or aggressive online advertising and worse.

http://taipeigeek.blogspot.com/2018...rust-youtube-channels-like-tony-northrup.html

http://taipeigeek.blogspot.com/2018/05/jason-lanier-removed-as-sony-artisan.html

http://pastehtml.com/view/1eejiqj.html

One has to be careful these days what one even loads on a browser, let alone tries to read; if this is even possible, too often yet another sloppily made video.

I steer well clear of these murky sites

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that any of these links provide evidence of Sony or Samsung paying troll farms to attack competitors?

Click to expand...

Well, I didn't look at those links, but this one indicates that Samsung has engaged in the practice,

https://www.bgr.in/news/samsung-fined-for-paying-off-trolls-to-bash-htc-on-the-web/

Click to expand...

That is disappointing to hear of, but it was a single instance back in 2013; I doubt that they would repeat it again as reputational damage is a real problem for big companies (as with some of the recent diesel emissions scandals in the automotive industry).

Click to expand...

Hmmm. That could be a questionable assumption:

The following is datelined 5 October 2018 from Roy Morgan Research:

"Three years after the emissions reporting scandal broke worldwide, Volkswagen has regained the top spot in the non-luxury-vehicle brand-loyalty stakes in Australia, according to the latest survey data from Roy Morgan.

Of those planning to buy a new vehicle in the next four years, a full 61.5 per cent of VW drivers said in June that they would be looking to buy the same brand – marginally ahead of the 59.6 per cent of Toyota drivers who said they would remain brand-loyal.

Click to expand...

I think other companies have also been implicated which takes some of the the heat off VW (not that 'everyone does it' is any sort of valid excuse) - my understanding is that sales of diesel cars in general is still well down.

Click to expand...

From the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS)

"Diesel passenger car sales in Australia are up 57 per cent since 2012.

“While the number of petrol powered vehicles increased (0.8 per cent) from 2016 to 2017 their share of the total fleet decreased again,” said Michaela Cook, ABS director of transport and tourism.

“The proportion of vehicles fuelled by petrol has decreased from 88.1 per cent of the national fleet in 2012 to 75.7 per cent in 2017. Diesel vehicles remain a popular choice in 2017, with 313,551 (8.1 per cent) more diesel vehicles registered than in the previous year.”

Vehicles powered by diesel account for 22.2 per cent of the national fleet in 2017, up from 15.9 per cent five years ago."

It must be the Coriolis effect

Bob Janes said:

Bob Janes said:

As of June 2018, the next highest levels of loyalty after VW and Toyota were Mazda (57.6%), Subaru (54.4%), Honda (50.9%) and Hyundai (47.7%)."

It seems that, with proper management, reputational damage may be rather fleeting.

Bob Janes said:

Bob Janes said:

Here's a link that verifies that such an "industry" exists,

https://www.newsweek.com/online-trolling-can-lead-financial-rewards-study-finds-991920

Click to expand...

That article suggests that some trolls pose as customer service reps to give a false (negative) impression - that is not what was being suggested by @Thoughts, which was that forums (such as this one) are being targeted by Sony funded trolls - and no evidence of that has been presented.

Click to expand...

If this was true, and hopefully it is not, finding proof may be difficult unless someone totally screws up. Just how would one go about proving posting was done for payment?

Click to expand...

But Thoughts claims that Sony have been caught before paying troll farms to spread negative criticism of competitors in public forums. If they have been caught, it should be possible to provide some evidence.

Bob Janes said:

Bob Janes said:

Bob Janes said:

And no one has been following the news who doesn't know that all kinds of paid trolling and sockpuppeting is going on online, for purposes from the commercial to the political.

Click to expand...

The sockpuppeting thing is annoying, but it is pretty easy to spot - two accounts backing each other up, one with a recent creation date and both using the same phraseology - generally such accounts avoid having picture galleries or much in the way of personal info.

Click to expand...

Or maybe they have figured that out and actually put in a fair bit of personal info. How is anyone going to check that out? I agree that most will have recent creation dates ;-)

Click to expand...

It helps the MODs as they can check the IP address being posted under to check that a person supposedly based in London isn't using an IP address out of somewhere completely different all the time. A gallery is actually a pretty good indicator of whether someone is real - particularly if the exif is intact.

Bob Janes said:

I think the best way, as some have done, is to politely but firmly challenge the purpose and relevance of the post. If the poster becomes unpleasant, just do not respond. I know that is easier said than done :-(

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