DiffractionLtd
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Give Olympus the billions being spent on improving phone tech then.
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Very little progress in 5 years
- Thread starter drbroom
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Which brings a point I posted previously: as I believed before, this ends up meaning that a good number of people, factoring in worldwide rollout, shipping, availability, wait lists and just general personal 'delays' before buying like researching etc, that many people won't have a (hopefully!) midrange Olympus OSPDAF-enabled camera in their own hands until 2020.
That's 7 years beyond the original introduction of the first m43 OSPDAF camera, the first EM1.
That's an ETERNITY in tech years.
Englishman in France
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The 16MP sensor in the original E-M5 was a big leap in IQ for Olympus. Coming from a GF1, I was totally blown away. I have to agree that the latest E-M5 and E-M10 don't seem like a massive leap forward in IQ, with their 16MP with fairly similar noise and dynamic range.
The has been a lot of improvements in the small bodied OMD range since the E-M5 mkI though. Even my E-M10 mki was a big improvement over my E-M5 mki, which I broke on a mountain bike ride. Olympus really improved the ergonomics after the original E-M5. New models have a proper electronic first curtain, an electronic shutter, live time/bulb/composite, more AF points, pixel shift, reprogramming the mode dial, 1-2 toggle on the dual dials, multifunction button....the list of new features is massive. I found focus peaking a massive anti-climax and still prefer magnify when manual focusing.
I too value a small kit and think it is the main strength of M43. Not as small as a phone though, but much more fun to use. I will be sticking with my trusty E-M10 mki until it breaks. By which time I am hoping that something exciting may have happened in sensor technology....like global shutter. Wouldn't that be nice!
The has been a lot of improvements in the small bodied OMD range since the E-M5 mkI though. Even my E-M10 mki was a big improvement over my E-M5 mki, which I broke on a mountain bike ride. Olympus really improved the ergonomics after the original E-M5. New models have a proper electronic first curtain, an electronic shutter, live time/bulb/composite, more AF points, pixel shift, reprogramming the mode dial, 1-2 toggle on the dual dials, multifunction button....the list of new features is massive. I found focus peaking a massive anti-climax and still prefer magnify when manual focusing.
I too value a small kit and think it is the main strength of M43. Not as small as a phone though, but much more fun to use. I will be sticking with my trusty E-M10 mki until it breaks. By which time I am hoping that something exciting may have happened in sensor technology....like global shutter. Wouldn't that be nice!
DiffractionLtd
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As long as progress doesn't mean banding thanks to phase pixels, great.
Yes, I think you may have identified an overextended conclusion in my first post. I have run on the premise that new technologies eventually trickle down to smaller bodies. I have judged these smaller "ultra-compact" bodies (e.g. GM1/GM5) by the standards of the "regular" sized bodies (EM5, GX9).
The release pattern really only points to the GM5 as the exception rather than the rule. You could boil my post down to yet another poster opining for the return of the GM series.
One element I do think that has been misrepresented in my original post was that I want all the features of the top-of-the-line in a budget body. I want all the features of the top-of-the-line in a ultra-compact body - the only M43 camera to have successfully done this is the GM5.
However, I do believe that the competition is catching up - bottom-up and top-down. The 1" Sony sensors perform very well (DXO awards the RX100 sensor 70 points, as compared to the EM5's 71). Fujifilm has recently released the XF10, a small-bodied fixed lens APS-C and the upcoming Ricoh GR3 has shrunk compared to its predecessor while gaining IS.
In saying that, having just researched the LX100.2 it seems that Panasonic have also improved the model when compared to its predecessor. If they made a GM7 that was exactly the LX100v2 with a M43 mount I would snap that sucker up.
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Maybe I should have been more explicit about price ranges. I want a smaller body at the price range of the EM5. When I purchased the EM5.1 that was at the top of the price range, since then the EM1.2 has created a new price bracket. The EM5 is now the "cheaper" body.
I disagree with your analysis re: computing power. You are ignoring the progress that chip manufacturing has made - both in computational power and memory bandwidth. The processors are now a fraction of the size, heat and power consumption has been reduced, and performance is multiplied. In the last 7 years ARM processors have gone from being manufactured at 45nm to 7nm (for example, Apple A5 @ 45nm, 2011, to Apple A12 @ 7nm in 2018).
Graph showcasing performance increases up til Apple A10 (2 years ago?)
I understand that with a small size comes trade-offs - namely battery and limitations to heat-dissipation (the RX100 has a 4k recording limit due this).
What am I arguing is that M43 does not appear to have been kept progress with these massive changes in the industry. From what I understand of the camera industry is that they're in a bit of a catch-22 scenario. Camera sales seem to be dropping overall (correlated with the rise of camera phones). Thus, manufacturers need to be selective about their investments to enable maximum return. They do not appear to be focusing on investments that result in better products for me (small, capable bodies) thus pushing me towards to the camera phones that they are most likely losing market share to.
Where I will concede a blind spot in my argument is the recent release of the LX100.2 which is almost exactly what I want, I'd just prefer a M43 mount.
Using your argument of computational power, how would you justify it having the same internals as the GX9? Presumably the battery life is shorter and it appears to stop recording at once a temperature threshold is reached, but it is physically smaller and lighter. These are trade-offs I am more than happy to make.
I tend to shoot 'snapshot' style photos for Instagram. I don't hold any illusion that they're particularly refined: http://drbroom.tumblr.com
DiffractionLtd
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m4/3rds didn't keep-pace because they SET pace. Look at all the innovations they perfected which are now used on other cameras. If they do go to a larger sensor all I hope is that they keep m4/3rds and they keep the 4:3 format and not go 3:2 like all the other companies pandering to geriatric sheep.
Yes, it's an angle probably worth considering. In my original post I exalted the E-M5 which blew me away at the time with IBIS and the size/quality trade-off. The EM5.2 had me considerably less excited (due to being evolutionary rather than revolutionary).
The most exciting feature for me is the focus-stacking which wasn't present on release. The second-most innovative feature was the focus-stacking, unfortunately it's implementation has limitations and even then appears to have quite mixed results. A hand-held version of this feature has just been released by Google with the Pixel 3 which is pretty fascinating: https://ai.googleblog.com/2018/10/see-better-and-further-with-super-res.html
I think the next innovation for me will be intuitive control of computational processes. That is, giving users access to parameters controlling the way that multiple exposures are combined. I love the Lightroom HDR feature but all it does it just spit out a single combined image. It would be great, for example, to selectively bias the final composition towards features such as foreground/background. I was imagining adding a vertical axis to exposure - left/right being global image exposure and up-down being foreground/background exposure (dynamically merged according to multiple exposures).
DiffractionLtd
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Camera companies and divisions don't have the money of the cellphone companies so I won't expect extraordinary advances from them. I'd love an E-M5III, but I don't expect miracles. Maybe multipoint selective spot-metering like my OM4T had.
I agree, but that is consistent with my thesis of "little progress". It also indicates a worrying trend of "no continued progress".
DPreview have just posted new Sony news reporting a potential new 20mp sensor so maybe there is some light.
IMHO they already have the sensor that most people are waiting for, the 20mpx OSPDAF unit, to put into more bodies.
But incredibly, frustratingly, arrogantly stubbornly, they have so far refused, keeping it to one body only. Heck, Olympus won't even put out a third 20mpx CDAF body at this point!
Not superior to either, and definitely not the 12mm lens. However, taking into account context, I have my phone on me that fits into my pocket. The 14mm didn’t justify lugging around an extra, unpocketable ~500 grams for photos that didn’t wow me. The 12mm was heavier yet again and even less pocketable, but the photos were better. I found over time I wasn’t using it.
I don’t find the iPhone lens superior, but I do find it’s the one I’m using more often than not. I have a bunch of photos here http://drbroom.tumblr.com - I think all of the snow ones were from the iPhone as I carried it with me snowboarding up the ski lifts. I wouldn’t have done this with a larger cam + lens combo.
JaKing
Veteran Member
Many, many people took their family snapshots with variations on the Kodak Instamatic. Any decent phone camera will take better photos than an Instamatic ...
You'll need to be more explicit about the point you're trying to make here, for me.
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Then, tell me, which manufacturer or sensor format has made more progress than mFT? They all swim in the same water. But functionally, mFT is certainly the winner in the race.
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Thomas
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JaKing
Veteran Member
If you are using any camera for its most common and useful function, capturing memories (IMO), any recent phone camera will give a better result than the ubiquitous family film cameras of the past. e.g.
Yamaha Vstar
Trailer axles
Both taken with my Blackberry 5 MPx phone camera. Both printed very nicely at A4 size.
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br, john, from you know where
My gear list and sordid past are here: https://www.dpreview.com/members/1558378718/overview
Gallery: https://www.canopuscomputing.com.au/zen2/page/gallery/
Interesting to know this. But doesn't this add evidence to my point? Why is it so slow when WiFi speeds have increased so dramatically?
I used the SD adapter but if's another thing to pack, and if I forget it, I have 0 options to transfer photos. Often when I'm travelling I'll edit photos on my phone or iPad while on public transport.
You appear to have misunderstood my argument. I'm many of the gripes I have listed are solved by new cameras (however, many are still not, especially in the smaller bodies).
These gripes are also solved by cameras released in 2013. 2013 was 5 years ago.
See above point.
See above point.
Lightroom Mobile CC RAW HDR: "The new HDR mode works by automatically scanning the scene to determine the correct exposure range and then capturing three DNG files which are then automatically aligned, merged, deghosted, and tonemapped in the app. You get a 16-bit floating point DNG, with all of the benefits of both an HDR and a raw photo, which is processed by the same algorithms with the same quality as the HDR technology built into Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom." - http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjou...raw-hdr-capture-mode-for-ios-and-android.html
I would recommend playing around with it if you have an iPhone X/XS. The technology is improving very rapidly.
You assume wrong, I mean Optical Image Stabilisation as advertised by Apple https://www.apple.com/au/iphone-xs/specs/
Again, I am aware many post-EM5 cameras have excellent IBIS. I just purchased an E-P5 released one year after the E-M5, I am fully assuming the IBIS technology somehow didn't regress in this time. Has it progressed beyond that though?
See the Lightroom HDR CC point above. It's doing the "much more advanced" version you suggest it is incapable of doing.
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camerapixels.basic-pixels.com
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petapixel.com
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www.slrlounge.com
If you're going to discount 'focus-stacking' as being very limited (which is a fair call) then you need to apply that same standard to the E-M1/E-M5.2 - as focus-stacking was one of the touted improvements of those models.
You are speculating that they don't have the necessary horsepower or memory to achieve this. They might, or Olympus might be artificially limiting it to those models. For all we know, any newer TruePic may be able to achieve this.
I hope the 2019 models receive this update.
Maybe. However, I would definitely like a small ILC.
I'm happy to pay E-M5 prices as I did back in 2012, if:
1) The body format exists (GM line has been killed);
2) The price is justified by the improvements.
This is my price range:
EM5.1 body: $999
EM5.2 body: $1099
E-P5: $999
GM5 w/ lens: $899
How is the GX850 more advanced than the E-P5? It's smaller (a big plus) but I'm not seeing any other advantages? (This is running on the assumption that electronic shutter still results in loss of dynamic range). Why buy a new GX850 when the E-P5 is half the price and has the same feature set?
GX9 is nice but I'm not convinced the innovations justifies the price. I'm disappointed the 'focus-stacking' is just 4K JPEGs stitched together (e.g. can't shoot RAW). As noted, my iPhone can do that.
I don't see any advantages of the EM10.2?
I've realised I don't use the EVF often and have thus bought a model without one.
Well that's the entire idea of technological "progress". Up until the GM1 you couldn't make an M43 ILC that small, and up until the GM5 you couldn't make an M43 with EVF and dials that small.
You're speculating you can't and I'm speculating you can. Even if it's just 2 or 3-axis (as per the recently released E-PL9)
Yes, that was the point. It's a shame I'd need to leave a system I've invested in though.
Yes, that's the point. They have yet to trickle down and I don't want a larger body.
Features:
- Small, very small
- Control dials
- In-camera RAW HDR
- In-camera RAW focus stacking
- Better sensor (Sony BSI)
- Excellent wifi/bluetooth
- Fast shutter speed or global electronic shutter
- Hi-res sensor shift capture
Panasonic plan to release 2 full-frame bodies in 2019. That's a roadmap.
The Sony RX100 seems to have made pretty impressive strides in the same period: 2012 - 2018
DXOMARK: 66 > 70 (most recent model not reviewed yet)
Shutter: 1/2000 sec > 1/32000 sec
Continuous: 10 frames/s > 24 frames/s
Slow motion: none > 1000fps
AF points: 25 > 315
AF: contrast > phase
EVF : none > yes
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en.wikipedia.org
Now, if you compare the last couple of models there's way less of a difference.
3dwag
Senior Member
With apologies, I reply below to some of your comments, but since you stripped out your OP quotes some of my answers may be a bit off - I'm on iPhone and it's not convenient to be switching windows to try and synchronize with your OP.
Just as a general note, your OP was at times confusing and all I was trying to do was to sort out exactly what you were talking about in some cases, and in others to sort through what appeared to me as conflicting statements and questions. However, after reading through these and some of your other replies I do have a better picture of where you are coming from, and my bottom line here is that given the helpful replies given plus your own research, many of your questions seem more like rhetorical and I think you know enough about your own needs, likes/ dislikes, and what all is available to just make your own decision about what to do in terms of your equipment for your photo-taking.
By the way, focus stacking is not available in the EM5ii, only EM1 and EM1ii. Focus bracketing, however, is available in the EM5ii, but of course you need to do some post-processing on a computer (or iPad) to stack the images.
An Apple can put far more technology and at a lower price into a product which sells 50 million pieces (or more) in one year, as compared to the meager expected sales of a camera over it's useful product life (probably more like 10s of thousands of units sold, and with a product life usually only a few years at best).
Anyway, above you seemed to like Apple's OIS idea -- you do realize that there are lenses available now with pretty good OIS. THough, admittedly, IBIS adds some extra dimension to the capability in many cases.
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-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas
¯\_|’_’|_/¯
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Just as a general note, your OP was at times confusing and all I was trying to do was to sort out exactly what you were talking about in some cases, and in others to sort through what appeared to me as conflicting statements and questions. However, after reading through these and some of your other replies I do have a better picture of where you are coming from, and my bottom line here is that given the helpful replies given plus your own research, many of your questions seem more like rhetorical and I think you know enough about your own needs, likes/ dislikes, and what all is available to just make your own decision about what to do in terms of your equipment for your photo-taking.
A rhetorical question. It is what it is. If fast Wi-fi is a requirement for you, then buy accordingly...
See above point...
I guess I did misunderstand...the way you wrote your OP (as I recall) it seemed you were happy with your EM5 except for the fact that it did not do a few things (which so many later μ4/3 cams can now do).
See above point...
See above point...
See above point...
OK, I stay away from Lightroom in any form. This is a multi-shot HDR mode, not practical for a lot of work, though good for some things. I thought you were talking about a single-shot "limited" HDR-to-jpeg mode. Except for the DNG compatibility, I've had that capability for some years on iOS in two other apps, more recently in 2 more. Of course, this feature has also been available for some years in μ4/3 and other formats as well.
Then this is a weird comment, still. OIS is available on many μ4/3 lenses as well, and with certain all-Olympus and all-Panasonic camera/ lens combinations the camera makes double (synchronous) use of both the camera IBIS and the lens OIS.
It has definitely progressed. For Olympus, the EM5ii (and EM1) had improvements over EM5, and EM1ii over everything else. And, see above point regarding dual- and sync-IS.
Of course. I was just trying to understand which you were talking about (multi-frame or single-frame HDR).
I never said otherwise. Again, I was trying to determine your reference point, as I've seen many others confuse features between some native iPHone's those of and ICLCs. It is a useful feature in some circumstances. As with the multi-frame HDR (above), focus stacking requires multiple frames, so is limited in what subjects/ circumstances it will work in.
By the way, focus stacking is not available in the EM5ii, only EM1 and EM1ii. Focus bracketing, however, is available in the EM5ii, but of course you need to do some post-processing on a computer (or iPad) to stack the images.
Educated speculation. EE with 45 years designing high-tech industrial and scientific equipment and processes, mostly in the semiconductor industry and on the cutting edge. And I am very much into the experience on the manufacturing end of the chips which supply the latest smartphones and tablets, as well as the less-ambitious products such as instruments, consumer devices, and yes, cameras.
An Apple can put far more technology and at a lower price into a product which sells 50 million pieces (or more) in one year, as compared to the meager expected sales of a camera over it's useful product life (probably more like 10s of thousands of units sold, and with a product life usually only a few years at best).
But as time marches on, more processing power for lower cost does trickle down eventually, and at least for Olympus I expect 2 or 3 new cameras including a somewhat smaller one to be released during 2019. But that is also speculation.
Sure, reasonable possibilities...
Pardon me, I was only offering possible alternatives in the fog of your OP which was somewhat confusing and scattered.
IBIS in a GM5-sized body? Never. Slightly larger, OK... Have you looked inside of these cameras to see what these assemblies look like, it's not difficult to extrapolate from that. Or, to put it another way, perhaps SOMEDAY a more advanced, more compact IBIS assembly could be developed, but it would not appear first in lower-cost model.
Anyway, above you seemed to like Apple's OIS idea -- you do realize that there are lenses available now with pretty good OIS. THough, admittedly, IBIS adds some extra dimension to the capability in many cases.
It's what I call a preview. They even showed prototypes. The "roadmaps" I've ever seen go out at least a few years...
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-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas
¯\_|’_’|_/¯
http://www.pbase.com/3dwag/image/97156660.jpg
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