Teenager wanting to learn photography

Used 18-135 would cover a lot . . .

Kelly

KCook said:

Used 18-135 would cover a lot . . .

Kelly

Click to expand...

I'm avoiding all variable aperture lenses especially if they start at F/3.5 and higher because of the limited use with bokeh.

ikolbyi said:

I'm avoiding all variable aperture lenses especially if they start at F/3.5 and higher because of the limited use with bokeh.

Click to expand...

Bokeh is the quality of the out of focus areas. And I might imagine that a 135mm lens will provide a creamier background at f/5.6 than a 50mm at f/2.8 due to magnification. But then again, it all depends on the desired outcome.

For learning photography, nothing beats a prime lens. I would probably opt for the Canon lens over a third party lens. Resale value of the Canon lens will probably make up for any difference in potential out-of-pockets-expenses.

That said, don't get too focused on gear. If you focus on gear your daughter will focus on gear. And there is always better gear. I have found that the images between adults and young people are night & day. I might see if there is a local photography club, or 4H or something for learning about photography. Most of the young adults I have worked with aren't too interested in the technical. Much more interested in the creative side of photography. And that's fine. Just want to find people to encourage that.

John Deerfield said:

For learning photography, nothing beats a prime lens.

Click to expand...

Which is why I am focusing primarily on prime. I want her feet to be the zoom (when she can). This is why I am focusing on a simple prime, specially around 50mm which means a 35/40mm on an APSC sensor. Its a nice 'around around purpose lens' to learn from.

John Deerfield said:

I would probably opt for the Canon lens over a third party lens. Resale value of the Canon lens will probably make up for any difference in potential out-of-pockets-expenses.

Click to expand...

Money is a factor, I just need the lens quality/image quality to be 'good enough' to a learners eye. The only advantage to the 40mm Canon is I would keep it for myself it this does not work out for her since my 24-70mm is an F/4... then again my F/4 is L glass so should have less purple fringing...etc....

John Deerfield said:

That said, don't get too focused on gear. If you focus on gear your daughter will focus on gear.

Click to expand...

She has no clue what I am am buying and why. I'm focusing on gear simply to get her someone decent to learn on without breaking the bank. If this takes off, a 60D or 7D is good enough body to continue to use with better glass.

John Deerfield said:

And there is always better gear. I have found that the images between adults and young people are night & day.

Click to expand...

This is largely due to experience. When I compare my photos from 15+ years ago to my eye they are terrible. Sure equipment is vastly improved but I'm referring to how I framed the shot verse now with more experience.

John Deerfield said:

I might see if there is a local photography club, or 4H or something for learning about photography.

Click to expand...

School has this but she wants to learn from me, hey I'll take this moment in time because anyone with older kids all say the same thing: its gone in a blink of an eye.

John Deerfield said:

Most of the young adults I have worked with aren't too interested in the technical. Much more interested in the creative side of photography. And that's fine. Just want to find people to encourage that.

Click to expand...

Which is why I'm not looking to spend a lot of money (Budget no more than total $400). The equipment I outlined in my opinion will last for years to come taking excellent quality photos, just not sure the right route for a lens regarding the 3 I outlined. I borrowed a Rebel T2i with the EF-s kit lens with variable aperture last month, and unless the lighting conditions were absolutely perfect I was never happy with any of my own shots. Color, contrast, sharpness - everything just seemed "off". Snapped on my Sigma or L glass and that solved my problem even on a T2i body.

I'm not to sure about the Canon systems, having only ever known their FF offering, so may be off base here.

I'd have thought from a learning point of view a prime in the (FF equivalent) range of 35mm to 85mm would be good, with the wider end if the main interest is in street/reportage/cityscape and the longer end if it's portraiture.

At the wide end, how about the EFS 24mm f2.8 pancake? At the longer end, the EF 50mm f 1.8 is good value and good quality.

ikolbyi said:

My daughter has expressed an interest in photography, wanting to learn how to take photographs and has asked 'Santa' this year for equipment.

With this in mind I'm in the market for a used 60D or 7D, which body I purchase will depend on price. My question is which lens of the 3 would you recommend?

Just go on the cheap and save my hard earned money if this doesn't pan out?

YONGNUO YN35mm F2 Lens ~ $50 used

Go for quality?

Canon EF 40mm F2.8 Lens ~ $125 Canon refurbished or $100 used. I could also add this lens to my personal collection since my overlapping lens is an F4 only.

Or open up my wallet slightly and go for versatility?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm F/2.8 XR Di II LD Aspherical (IF) Lens ~ $200 used.

The reason why I'm focusing on lenses less than 50mm is due to the camera body crop factor. Suggestions?

Click to expand...

I recommend a different option. Buy her a little used mirrorless camera. For a truly good camera with little cash outlay I recommend a NEX 7 or NEX 6. For a little more money you can get a Fuji XT1.

Then find a good, cheap little 35/2.8 manual focus film lens. Something from Minolta or Yashica, Pentax or Canon will do fine. Then buy her the appropriate adapter to mount the lens on the camera.

Put it in aperture priority mode and show her how to shoot. This combo helps break photography down to its elemental parts in several ways. It shows her how changing the aperture effects shutter speed, while showing her how to control that also by varying the ISO. This is an excellent way for beginners to understand the exposure triangle. It also puts the aperture ring on the lens which mentally reinforces that the lens controls aperture, as opposed to just another random dial on the body changing something she doesnt understand.

An old 2.8 prime lens will return excellent results, providing the lens is in halfway decent shape. Those are super easy to find. Plus the 35mm focal length on a crop camera will give her close to the natural 50mm view which is always good to start with. Many of the old 35's have very nice close focusing distances, so she will be able to exploit the bokeh available from the lens by bringing her subject close. By manually focusing it also slows down the shooting process to make her think. She will get more deeply into the process by turning a metal ring to bring things into focus instead of just half pressing a button and 'beep' its in focus. Get her to understand the entire process.

Also, since she is a teenager she will more easily relate to having an EVF show her the info she is looking at. She has grown up looking at little screens and when she looks thru the EVF it will be familiar to her. She will appreciate the focus peaking and WYSIWYG exposure showing up in real time. When she puts it in black and white mode she will see the scene in black and white, thus helping her understand how exposure compensation can effect her tones, the inky black and the highlights.

I know this doesnt answer your question directly, just giving you something else to think about.

--
Straylightrun- "Are you for real?"
Goethe- "No, I'm a unicorn. Kudos for seeing thru the disguise."
http://photolumiere.net/
Goethe, this is a notification that you have been temporarily banned from dpreview, details of the reason are as follows: Excessive use of glitter.

johnbandry said:

I'm not to sure about the Canon systems, having only ever known their FF offering, so may be off base here.

I'd have thought from a learning point of view a prime in the (FF equivalent) range of 35mm to 85mm would be good, with the wider end if the main interest is in street/reportage/cityscape and the longer end if it's portraiture.

At the wide end, how about the EFS 24mm f2.8 pancake? At the longer end, the EF 50mm f 1.8 is good value and good quality.

Click to expand...

The EF-S 24mm f2.8 is the same price as the EF 40mm f2.8 and I would prefer to stick to EF mount for primes. Reason for sticking with EF mount is if this catches on want her to have the ability to carry over the lens just in case next body would be a 6D. If I go with EF-S mount then I'm locked into APSC bodies only which is not necessarily a bad thing, the 70D and newer are excellent camera systems.

Canon crop is 1.6x so the

• 24 would shoot as a 38mm
• 35 would shoot as a 56mm
• 40 would shoot as a 64mm
• I do not want to go to 50mm because that will shoot 80mm and that is too telephoto for landscapes, better for tight portraits

Goethe said:

I recommend a different option. Buy her a little used mirrorless camera. For a truly good camera with little cash outlay I recommend a NEX 7 or NEX 6. For a little more money you can get a Fuji XT1.

Then find a good, cheap little 35/2.8 manual focus film lens. Something from Minolta or Yashica, Pentax or Canon will do fine. Then buy her the appropriate adapter to mount the lens on the camera.

Click to expand...

I looked up the price of a Sony Nex 6 body and saw it is the same price as the Canon body's I'm looking at so you got my attention. That is until I saw the prices of lenses for E-mount -WOW. Now I understand why you recommended getting and adapter for a cheap 35mm film lens.

I use to be a Sony shooter back in the early 2000's until I switched over to Canon about 10 years ago and never left. Am I wed locked to Canon? No. But being able to loan her one of my lenses is a plus (if/when she is ready).

ikolbyi said:

Goethe said:

I recommend a different option. Buy her a little used mirrorless camera. For a truly good camera with little cash outlay I recommend a NEX 7 or NEX 6. For a little more money you can get a Fuji XT1.

Then find a good, cheap little 35/2.8 manual focus film lens. Something from Minolta or Yashica, Pentax or Canon will do fine. Then buy her the appropriate adapter to mount the lens on the camera.

Click to expand...

I looked up the price of a Sony Nex 6 body and saw it is the same price as the Canon body's I'm looking at so you got my attention. That is until I saw the prices of lenses for E-mount -WOW. Now I understand why you recommended getting and adapter for a cheap 35mm film lens.

Click to expand...

Im not sure what prices you are seeing for used cameras. I honestly dont know what those Canons are worth or what they go for. I recommend you check the used prices on KEH.com which is a great site for buying used.

Also not sure what E mount lenses you are looking at. If you are looking at the Full Frame lenses for E then yes, they can get pretty expensive. But there are plenty of inexpensive apsc options available that would fit natively on the Nex from Sony, and Sigma makes some very nice options as well.

The reason I was recommending old film lenses though wasnt the price. I mean, they can be very, very inexpensive. Especially when you consider the image quality they can produce. But I was more talking about how this combo will teach her things in a certain way. It slows down and breaks up the shooting process into little chunks that are more easily understandable.

For instance, when she racks the aperture ring back and forth (on the lens) while seeing the immediate effect in the EVF on how this effects bokeh, well...that is a huge visual aide to understanding the component parts of exposure and image creation. She will understand that this part of the lens is what controls that specific effect. When she changes exposure comp and sees the image darken or lighten...again, its a big help to understanding what the camera sees and how to manipulate that to get the desired effect.

ikolbyi said:

I use to be a Sony shooter back in the early 2000's until I switched over to Canon about 10 years ago and never left. Am I wed locked to Canon? No. But being able to loan her one of my lenses is a plus (if/when she is ready).

Click to expand...

Lens sharing is a good option to have. But if she likes the little NEX then getting her a decent set of old vintage primes wont put you out much at all. And if she wanted an AF lens then those Sigmas are pretty inexpensive as I said.

But if she likes photography and wants to get serious then there are plenty of Sony FF options down the road you can get her that can adapt your Canon lenses with mostly full functionality using the Metabones or Sigma adapters. Heck, you might even find yourself using her FF mirrorless more than she does lol.

These are all just some thoughts and suggestions. I hope you find something that works for her.

--
Straylightrun- "Are you for real?"
Goethe- "No, I'm a unicorn. Kudos for seeing thru the disguise."
http://photolumiere.net/
Goethe, this is a notification that you have been temporarily banned from dpreview, details of the reason are as follows: Excessive use of glitter.

You don't have to convince me on Sigma glass, I'm a user of them today and love the quality.

In fact I'm selling my Sigma 85mm EX DG so I can upgrade to the 105mm Art.


I found your recommendation on Amazon at the price I'm willing to pay. You did make a compelling argument that today's youth will have no interest in a view finder and will use the LCD behind the camera.


I'm still going back and forth.

Don't stick her with only a prime.

If she's interested in photography, being limited to a single focal length is the best way lose that interest.

Get her a zoom. Flexibility. The 17-50 is ok but an 18-100+ (whatever Canon has) would be much better while she's figuring out what she likes to shoot.

ikolbyi said:

My daughter has expressed an interest in photography, wanting to learn how to take photographs and has asked 'Santa' this year for equipment.

With this in mind I'm in the market for a used 60D or 7D, which body I purchase will depend on price. My question is which lens of the 3 would you recommend?

Just go on the cheap and save my hard earned money if this doesn't pan out?

YONGNUO YN35mm F2 Lens ~ $50 used

Go for quality?

Canon EF 40mm F2.8 Lens ~ $125 Canon refurbished or $100 used. I could also add this lens to my personal collection since my overlapping lens is an F4 only.

Or open up my wallet slightly and go for versatility?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm F/2.8 XR Di II LD Aspherical (IF) Lens ~ $200 used.

The reason why I'm focusing on lenses less than 50mm is due to the camera body crop factor. Suggestions?

Click to expand...

Anything will work if she really wants to learn photography. I can dimly recall being a teenager in the late 50's. I got hand-me-down cameras like a Bolsey and a Zorki. Nothing good about them at all but I could learn about photography by using them. And I did and I did.

So I'd say the camera doesn't matter. What counts is how interested she is.

Jonsi said:

Don't stick her with only a prime.

If she's interested in photography, being limited to a single focal length is the best way lose that interest.

Get her a zoom. Flexibility. The 17-50 is ok but an 18-100+ (whatever Canon has) would be much better while she's figuring out what she likes to shoot.

Click to expand...

Yeah, wanting the freedom to shoot a wide range of subjects while also learning perspective, a fixed focal length would suck.

ikolbyi said:

KCook said:

Used 18-135 would cover a lot . . .

Kelly

Click to expand...

I'm avoiding all variable aperture lenses especially if they start at F/3.5 and higher because of the limited use with bokeh.

Click to expand...

Ordinary zoom lenses, even cheap and slow 'kit' lenses can have beautiful bokeh. A longer focal length is key.

For these shots I borrowed my kid's camera and his kit zoom lens. Nikon DX 55-200mm, f/4-5.6 VRii.

SOOC, resized only:





Honest, with lenses this nice costing $130-150 (refurbished-new), I can't see buying old used lenses to save money.

--
Personal non-commercial websites with no ads or tracking:
Local photography: http://ratonphotos.com/
Travel and photography: http://placesandpics.com/
Special-interest photos: http://ghosttowns.placesandpics.com/

I took my daughter to BestBuy to feel for herself the Sony A6000 (similar in design to NEX6) and she hated it. Specifically: she is left eye dominate and the EVF all the way to left with little protusion made it very uncomfortable for her and the overall size of camera was "too small" to comfortably hold. Regarding the screen on back, her response was "they are all worthless in the sun". I had her try the Sony A7II and EVF was fine but still felt the overall body was too small to hold comfortably. She didnt like the Panasonic neither for same reason. Lastly we tried the Canon 77D and she liked everything about it.

That answers that....back to original question: what lens mounted on a Canon 60D or 7D?

ikolbyi said:

I took my daughter to BestBuy to feel for herself the Sony A6000 (similar in design to NEX6) and she hated it. Specifically: she is left eye dominate and the EVF all the way to left with little protusion made it very uncomfortable for her and the overall size of camera was "too small" to comfortably hold. Regarding the screen on back, her response was "they are all worthless in the sun". I had her try the Sony A7II and EVF was fine but still felt the overall body was too small to hold comfortably. She didnt like the Panasonic neither for same reason. Lastly we tried the Canon 77D and she liked everything about it.

That answers that....back to original question: what lens mounted on a Canon 60D or 7D?

Click to expand...

Of the choices you listed, I'd go with the 17-50 zoom. I think a prime just makes life more difficult.

To put on a 60D or 7D, I would get a Canon 18-135 STM. I see keh.com has four of them in excellent condition at about $230. The Canon refurbished site often has them for about the same price. I have one for my 70D. It is a very good lens for the money.

You need to make sure you are getting an STM model though. The older model that preceeded it was not so good. If you get one, inspect the markings and make sure it says STM

ikolbyi said:

ikolbyi said:

And there is always better gear. I have found that the images between adults and young people are night & day.

Click to expand...

This is largely due to experience. When I compare my photos from 15+ years ago to my eye they are terrible. Sure equipment is vastly improved but I'm referring to how I framed the shot verse now with more experience.

Click to expand...

Perhaps. In my experience, young people simply see the world differently and that comes through in their images.

ikolbyi said:

ikolbyi said:

I might see if there is a local photography club, or 4H or something for learning about photography.

Click to expand...

School has this but she wants to learn from me, hey I'll take this moment in time because anyone with older kids all say the same thing: its gone in a blink of an eye.

Click to expand...

Most definitely. But I would want to make sure she has other influences as well. We are the product of our experiences. You have one set of experiences. We learn from several.

ikolbyi said:

ikolbyi said:

Most of the young adults I have worked with aren't too interested in the technical. Much more interested in the creative side of photography. And that's fine. Just want to find people to encourage that.

Click to expand...

Which is why I'm not looking to spend a lot of money (Budget no more than total $400). The equipment I outlined in my opinion will last for years to come taking excellent quality photos, just not sure the right route for a lens regarding the 3 I outlined. I borrowed a Rebel T2i with the EF-s kit lens with variable aperture last month, and unless the lighting conditions were absolutely perfect I was never happy with any of my own shots. Color, contrast, sharpness - everything just seemed "off". Snapped on my Sigma or L glass and that solved my problem even on a T2i body.

Click to expand...

Very hard to comment without seeing images. While I very much think a prime is a great lens to learn with, a kit lens provides ample opportunities as well. As does a camera phone. In one sense, the camera is simply the tool used to record the exposure. The camera records the light. It is very important to understand this and how it applies to whatever gear you are using. You can take remarkable images with a cell phone provided you know what light you need.

I wish you both the best and good luck.