Exposure compensation versus spot metering?

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

Member said:

1. PhilDunn wrote:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

Simply wrong first not every scene has a 18% grey area in it and second when shooting dark or white subjects even if you have a 18% grey area to meter off of in bright light your subject will be ether blown out if white or to dark if black if you used the spot meter reading for middle grey.

Click to expand...

Look at your image again. Are those different camera exposures? Of course they are. Spot meter use doesn’t require one to use an 18% gray/middle gray area.

You said you read the instructions for your gray card. Great. Now go a step further and think for yourself and realize what else can be done with a spot meter, assuming you know what they do, which in this example is to compensate for exposure.

Click to expand...

None of them but I know where you going with this if I had shot this in spot I would have metered the white bird and set it at +2 or the mangrove at -11/2 I would not be trying to place my spot meter half way between a light and dark tones on a moving subject. Much easier and accurate to meter a known tonal value and add the compensation needed.

Click to expand...

No, it isn’t, once you know what you are doing.

Member said:

Plus your missing my point the dark BG is not that dark it exposed that way because of the compensation needed for the white bird the tonal values are not even and would not have balance out if I half metered both of them. So I know what you are saying but in my experience that is not a reliable technique.

Click to expand...

I'm using your photo merely as an example. Since nether of us can go go back to that scene, pretend your photo is a scene we are looking at to take a photo. The spot placements I have shown are merely examples. The method would work in either case. Your photo subject/composition isn’t a case of taking a photo at the ground filled entirely with snow, minus one tiny stick much smaller than the spot meter is able to make use of.

Click to expand...

You are still missing the point which is you have to add compensation to a middle grey reading when shooting very light or dark subjects in bright light.

Click to expand...

I'm not taking a middle gray ready.

Member said:

using your snow example if you placed a grey card in that scene and spot metered the card and you'd those setting with out any compensation your snow will be over exposed that is what I am saying and that is also the instructions on the grey card.

Click to expand...

I don't use gray cards.

Member said:

You are also saying that you can partial metered the bright and dark tones in a scene and they will balance out and give you the correct exposure which on some occasions you are probably right but that is not a reliable way to use spot metering.

Click to expand...

Where do you get this idea that I'm only trying to balance exposure? Are those two other circles on the edge of the bird balanced out?

Member said:

What happens when you don't have a dark tonal value to balance out the light what if your scene is all very light and middle grey values in that scenario metering the middle grey will not get you the right exposure and neither will trying to meter the very light and the middle grey at the same time.

Click to expand...

I already addressed when a spot meter could not be used to compensate exposure in such a manner. Fortunately they are rare situations.

Member said:

So again even if you have a middle grey tonal value in your scene using it to determine exposure for very light or dark subjects in bright light without compensation will result in those subjects being improperly exposed without compensation to the middle grey values.

Click to expand...

Again, I don't need a middle gray value in the scene. In such a case I'm obviously not looking for one.

Click to expand...

So how would you expose that scene using a spot meter if you meter the middle tones without compensation the very light tones will be blown if you meter the light tones without compensation then all the tones will be under exposed. You have repeatitly stated that you do not need EC using spot metering. The more you are challenged on this the more caveats you ad to your position. The blanket statement that you do not need to ad EC using spot metering is wrong.

Click to expand...

I give up Don. It's like you're either ignoring what I have said or not even reading what I am writing.

Click to expand...

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riveredger said:

PhilDunn said:

riveredger said:

Don Lacy said:

riveredger said:

1. PhilDunn wrote:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

Simply wrong first not every scene has a 18% grey area in it and second when shooting dark or white subjects even if you have a 18% grey area to meter off of in bright light your subject will be ether blown out if white or to dark if black if you used the spot meter reading for middle grey.

Click to expand...

Look at your image again. Are those different camera exposures? Of course they are. Spot meter use doesn’t require one to use an 18% gray/middle gray area.

You said you read the instructions for your gray card. Great. Now go a step further and think for yourself and realize what else can be done with a spot meter, assuming you know what they do, which in this example is to compensate for exposure.

Click to expand...

None of them but I know where you going with this if I had shot this in spot I would have metered the white bird and set it at +2 or the mangrove at -11/2 I would not be trying to place my spot meter half way between a light and dark tones on a moving subject. Much easier and accurate to meter a known tonal value and add the compensation needed. Plus your missing my point the dark BG is not that dark it exposed that way because of the compensation needed for the white bird the tonal values are not even and would not have balance out if I half metered both of them. So I know what you are saying but in my experience that is not a reliable technique.

Click to expand...

Can you guys please stop this childish argument?

Click to expand...

Can you please stop trying to interfere in the normal function of a forum and go find something that does interest you?

Click to expand...

Please stop the childish arguing. It ruins the credibility of the forum.

Click to expand...

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lilBuddha said:

tbcass said:

From the point of view of the physics of light you are 100% correct.

Click to expand...

And from pigments, you are saying I am incorrect?

Click to expand...

tbcass said:

lilBuddha said:

tbcass said:

From the point of view of the physics of light you are 100% correct.

Click to expand...

And from pigments, you are saying I am incorrect?

Click to expand...

Huh? You must be paranoid. Looking at what I wrote I find it impossible to interpret it that way. Only on DPR can you post something agreeing with someone and they think you are disagreeing.

Click to expand...

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

Don Lacy said:

1. PhilDunn wrote:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

Simply wrong first not every scene has a 18% grey area in it and second when shooting dark or white subjects even if you have a 18% grey area to meter off of in bright light your subject will be ether blown out if white or to dark if black if you used the spot meter reading for middle grey.

Click to expand...

Look at your image again. Are those different camera exposures? Of course they are. Spot meter use doesn’t require one to use an 18% gray/middle gray area.

You said you read the instructions for your gray card. Great. Now go a step further and think for yourself and realize what else can be done with a spot meter, assuming you know what they do, which in this example is to compensate for exposure.

Click to expand...

None of them but I know where you going with this if I had shot this in spot I would have metered the white bird and set it at +2 or the mangrove at -11/2 I would not be trying to place my spot meter half way between a light and dark tones on a moving subject. Much easier and accurate to meter a known tonal value and add the compensation needed.

Click to expand...

No, it isn’t, once you know what you are doing.

Don Lacy said:

Plus your missing my point the dark BG is not that dark it exposed that way because of the compensation needed for the white bird the tonal values are not even and would not have balance out if I half metered both of them. So I know what you are saying but in my experience that is not a reliable technique.

Click to expand...

I'm using your photo merely as an example. Since nether of us can go go back to that scene, pretend your photo is a scene we are looking at to take a photo. The spot placements I have shown are merely examples. The method would work in either case. Your photo subject/composition isn’t a case of taking a photo at the ground filled entirely with snow, minus one tiny stick much smaller than the spot meter is able to make use of.

Click to expand...

You are still missing the point which is you have to add compensation to a middle grey reading when shooting very light or dark subjects in bright light.

Click to expand...

I'm not taking a middle gray ready.

Don Lacy said:

using your snow example if you placed a grey card in that scene and spot metered the card and you'd those setting with out any compensation your snow will be over exposed that is what I am saying and that is also the instructions on the grey card.

Click to expand...

I don't use gray cards.

Don Lacy said:

You are also saying that you can partial metered the bright and dark tones in a scene and they will balance out and give you the correct exposure which on some occasions you are probably right but that is not a reliable way to use spot metering.

Click to expand...

Where do you get this idea that I'm only trying to balance exposure? Are those two other circles on the edge of the bird balanced out?

Don Lacy said:

What happens when you don't have a dark tonal value to balance out the light what if your scene is all very light and middle grey values in that scenario metering the middle grey will not get you the right exposure and neither will trying to meter the very light and the middle grey at the same time.

Click to expand...

I already addressed when a spot meter could not be used to compensate exposure in such a manner. Fortunately they are rare situations.

Don Lacy said:

So again even if you have a middle grey tonal value in your scene using it to determine exposure for very light or dark subjects in bright light without compensation will result in those subjects being improperly exposed without compensation to the middle grey values.

Click to expand...

Again, I don't need a middle gray value in the scene. In such a case I'm obviously not looking for one.

Click to expand...

So how would you expose that scene using a spot meter if you meter the middle tones without compensation the very light tones will be blown if you meter the light tones without compensation then all the tones will be under exposed. You have repeatitly stated that you do not need EC using spot metering. The more you are challenged on this the more caveats you ad to your position. The blanket statement that you do not need to ad EC using spot metering is wrong.

Click to expand...

I give up Don. It's like you're either ignoring what I have said or not even reading what I am writing.

Click to expand...

Thats because wee are talking about two different things and I can't seem to get you to understand that. I am stating that finding a middle tone in your scene will not get you the correct exposure for a very dark or very light subject in bright light and thuse you need to ad compensation to the middle tone reading. You are arguing over using spot metering in a specific way which I do not think is accurate but that is fine I can see it working in a lot of scenarios. Right now we are talking past each other.

Click to expand...

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Don Lacy said:

Member said:

1. PhilDunn wrote:

Don Lacy said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

Simply wrong first not every scene has a 18% grey area in it and second when shooting dark or white subjects even if you have a 18% grey area to meter off of in bright light your subject will be ether blown out if white or to dark if black if you used the spot meter reading for middle grey.

Click to expand...

Look at your image again. Are those different camera exposures? Of course they are. Spot meter use doesn’t require one to use an 18% gray/middle gray area.

You said you read the instructions for your gray card. Great. Now go a step further and think for yourself and realize what else can be done with a spot meter, assuming you know what they do, which in this example is to compensate for exposure.

Click to expand...

None of them but I know where you going with this if I had shot this in spot I would have metered the white bird and set it at +2 or the mangrove at -11/2 I would not be trying to place my spot meter half way between a light and dark tones on a moving subject. Much easier and accurate to meter a known tonal value and add the compensation needed.

Click to expand...

No, it isn’t, once you know what you are doing.

Member said:

Plus your missing my point the dark BG is not that dark it exposed that way because of the compensation needed for the white bird the tonal values are not even and would not have balance out if I half metered both of them. So I know what you are saying but in my experience that is not a reliable technique.

Click to expand...

I'm using your photo merely as an example. Since nether of us can go go back to that scene, pretend your photo is a scene we are looking at to take a photo. The spot placements I have shown are merely examples. The method would work in either case. Your photo subject/composition isn’t a case of taking a photo at the ground filled entirely with snow, minus one tiny stick much smaller than the spot meter is able to make use of.

Click to expand...

You are still missing the point which is you have to add compensation to a middle grey reading when shooting very light or dark subjects in bright light.

Click to expand...

I'm not taking a middle gray ready.

Member said:

using your snow example if you placed a grey card in that scene and spot metered the card and you'd those setting with out any compensation your snow will be over exposed that is what I am saying and that is also the instructions on the grey card.

Click to expand...

I don't use gray cards.

Member said:

You are also saying that you can partial metered the bright and dark tones in a scene and they will balance out and give you the correct exposure which on some occasions you are probably right but that is not a reliable way to use spot metering.

Click to expand...

Where do you get this idea that I'm only trying to balance exposure? Are those two other circles on the edge of the bird balanced out?

Member said:

What happens when you don't have a dark tonal value to balance out the light what if your scene is all very light and middle grey values in that scenario metering the middle grey will not get you the right exposure and neither will trying to meter the very light and the middle grey at the same time.

Click to expand...

I already addressed when a spot meter could not be used to compensate exposure in such a manner. Fortunately they are rare situations.

Member said:

So again even if you have a middle grey tonal value in your scene using it to determine exposure for very light or dark subjects in bright light without compensation will result in those subjects being improperly exposed without compensation to the middle grey values.

Click to expand...

Again, I don't need a middle gray value in the scene. In such a case I'm obviously not looking for one.

Click to expand...

So how would you expose that scene using a spot meter if you meter the middle tones without compensation the very light tones will be blown if you meter the light tones without compensation then all the tones will be under exposed. You have repeatitly stated that you do not need EC using spot metering. The more you are challenged on this the more caveats you ad to your position. The blanket statement that you do not need to ad EC using spot metering is wrong.

Click to expand...

I give up Don. It's like you're either ignoring what I have said or not even reading what I am writing.

Click to expand...

Thats because wee are talking about two different things and I can't seem to get you to understand that. I am stating that finding a middle tone in your scene will not get you the correct exposure for a very dark or very light subject in bright light and thuse you need to ad compensation to the middle tone reading. You are arguing over using spot metering in a specific way which I do not think is accurate but that is fine I can see it working in a lot of scenarios. Right now we are talking past each other.

Click to expand...

No, you are talking past me because you are subjecting me to your inflexible use of the spot meter.

Click to expand...

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PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

richiebee said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

No it doesn’t. What if there’s nothing in your scene of the right luminance value to give you the exposure you want?

Click to expand...

richiebee said:

I’m not even sure why you responded to or quoted my post.

Click to expand...

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

No it doesn’t. What if there’s nothing in your scene of the right luminance value to give you the exposure you want?

Click to expand...

Then it will not work, as I have said elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Member said:

The thing is, its a very rare situation that you will have scenes like that.

Click to expand...

Member said:

Member said:

I’m not even sure why you responded to or quoted my post.

Click to expand...

Why? You think I shouldn't be allowed to address you and what you have said?

Click to expand...

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

richiebee said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

No it doesn’t. What if there’s nothing in your scene of the right luminance value to give you the exposure you want?

Click to expand...

Then it will not work, as I have said elsewhere.

Click to expand...

You didn’t say so here.

Click to expand...

richiebee said:

richiebee said:

The thing is, its a very rare situation that you will have scenes like that.

Click to expand...

That depends what you photograph. Certainly not rare in my shooting of very high contrast scenes.

Click to expand...

richiebee said:

richiebee said:

richiebee said:

I’m not even sure why you responded to or quoted my post.

Click to expand...

Why? You think I shouldn't be allowed to address you and what you have said?

Click to expand...

Sure. But you didn’t. You didn’t counter what I said (which is good, since it is fact), nor agree with it. You just brought up a whole different thing.

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PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

What if you have "no" (18%) gray in a scene, (maybe only black and white) ???

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You mix the two to your liking with the spot. Think of it as exposure compensation with the spot meter.

Click to expand...

Wrong again ... (then you might as well be using "Center-Weighted") ... "spot" is indeed specific to a specific "spot", (that is why it is called "spot" metering). And EC may OFTEN need to be used, (if not 18% reflectance).

Click to expand...

And by moving that spot around you can compensate with the spot meter. How is that difficult to understand?

Click to expand...

Please Phil ... open your mind and READ what others (smarter) have wrote.

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You keep trying to characterize me as closed minded. Enough with the ad hominem nonsense if you want me to keep responding.

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What gives you the idea I "want" you to respond ??? You are only confusing the OP w/ incorrect nonsense.

PhotoTeach2 said:

Stick to the message

Click to expand...

I have added to my "tutorial" MANY times, why don't you get that "message" ???

PhotoTeach2 said:

, not the messenger.

Click to expand...

Phil, with ALL DUE RESPECT ... your MESSAGE is WRONG !!!

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

You are not even making sense by "moving around to compensate".

The only reason to "move" is to center on a 18% reflected area, (which will indeed give a correct exposure).

Click to expand...

So if I find an 18% area but wish to compensate one way or the other are you saying that by shifting the position of the spot meter slightly to a part that is darker or lighter you can’t do that?

Click to expand...

WHY would you want to do that when 18% is the ideal target ??? That 18% area is what will give you a "correct" exposure, (indeed w/out EC).

PhotoTeach2 said:

That's a rhetorical question, by the way, because of course you can.

Click to expand...

Of course you "can", but WHY ???

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

But you indeed can move to other (not 18% reflectance), but then you MUST use EC or the exposure will be either darker or lighter as it tries to image a white or black as a (18%) "gray".

Click to expand...

Sigh. The slight movement I described above is the equivalent of compensating.

Click to expand...

WHAT do you mean by "compensate" ???

But if you were already on a 18% area, WHY would you want/need to "compensate" if you already have a "perfect" exposure ???

However ... IF I want to do ETTR, I might indeed find the "whitest" area in a scene and "spot" on that, (w/ +2 or +3).

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

It is really VERY SIMPLE ... but EC understanding is ESSENTIAL for proper exposure when spotting on either white or black, (instead of "gray" as camera is calibrated for).

Click to expand...

Meanwhile I have for decades now used spot metering almost exclusively, with film and digital, and my exposures are right on the money. That's why I use spot metering, because I know I can get the precise exposure I want for practically all of my kind of shooting.

Click to expand...

How may decades ??? ...

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

And your earlier assertion that you can spot meter on a (50/50) black/white is (while theoretically correct) absurd. How can you accurately do that with a 1-degree spot ??? (and Panasonic has a "pin-point" focusing mode that is even smaller than 1-degree)

Click to expand...

None of the spot meters on any of the cameras I have owned have been so small in coverage area as to prevent me from doing what I have described.

Click to expand...

You do realize that ALL original "spot" meters were indeed 1%, and with a "tele" lens, you now can have even smaller than 1%.

My FZ has "pin-point" spot.

The smaller the spot, the easier it can be in a high-density scene.

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

The correct way is to on either the white -or- black and use appropriate EC, (or either the white or black will be "gray" w/out correction).

Click to expand...

That's your limited way, not mine. Ironic, considering you keep trying to characterize me as close minded.

Click to expand...

Either you want an 18% area (equivalent), or ETTR, (or "L"), ... there is no other purpose for "spot", (unless you want a DR analysis of the entire scene).

**************

But eagerly awaiting your definition of "compensate" and WHY you would want to do that when a 18% area is available, (and/or you don't want to do ETTR/L) ??

Click to expand...

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

Yes ...

Click to expand...

PhotoTeach2 said:

But not as accurately as centering on "gray" for the theoretical "correct" exposure or optimum "ETTR" by placing on (brightest) white/highlight and +2/+3, (or "white" face @ +1).

Click to expand...

PhotoTeach2 said:

Anything else is just "guessing", (which is fine w/ experience, but beginners should first be taught the "correct" method until they feel confident to deviate).

Click to expand...

PhotoTeach2 said:

It does not help an admittedly confused OP to argue conflicting methods.

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tony field said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

What if you have "no" (18%) gray in a scene, (maybe only black and white) ???

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You mix the two to your liking with the spot. Think of it as exposure compensation with the spot meter.

Click to expand...

Wrong again ... (then you might as well be using "Center-Weighted") ... "spot" is indeed specific to a specific "spot", (that is why it is called "spot" metering). And EC may OFTEN need to be used, (if not 18% reflectance).

Click to expand...

And by moving that spot around you can compensate with the spot meter. How is that difficult to understand?

Click to expand...

Please Phil ... open your mind and READ what others (smarter) have wrote.

Click to expand...

You keep trying to characterize me as closed minded. Enough with the ad hominem nonsense if you want me to keep responding.

Click to expand...

What gives you the idea I "want" you to respond ??? You are only confusing the OP w/ incorrect nonsense.

tony field said:

Stick to the message

Click to expand...

I have added to my "tutorial" MANY times, why don't you get that "message" ???

tony field said:

, not the messenger.

Click to expand...

Phil, with ALL DUE RESPECT ... your MESSAGE is WRONG !!!

tony field said:

tony field said:

You are not even making sense by "moving around to compensate".

The only reason to "move" is to center on a 18% reflected area, (which will indeed give a correct exposure).

Click to expand...

So if I find an 18% area but wish to compensate one way or the other are you saying that by shifting the position of the spot meter slightly to a part that is darker or lighter you can’t do that?

Click to expand...

WHY would you want to do that when 18% is the ideal target ??? That 18% area is what will give you a "correct" exposure, (indeed w/out EC).

tony field said:

That's a rhetorical question, by the way, because of course you can.

Click to expand...

Of course you "can", but WHY ???

tony field said:

tony field said:

But you indeed can move to other (not 18% reflectance), but then you MUST use EC or the exposure will be either darker or lighter as it tries to image a white or black as a (18%) "gray".

Click to expand...

Sigh. The slight movement I described above is the equivalent of compensating.

Click to expand...

WHAT do you mean by "compensate" ???

But if you were already on a 18% area, WHY would you want/need to "compensate" if you already have a "perfect" exposure ???

However ... IF I want to do ETTR, I might indeed find the "whitest" area in a scene and "spot" on that, (w/ +2 or +3).

tony field said:

tony field said:

It is really VERY SIMPLE ... but EC understanding is ESSENTIAL for proper exposure when spotting on either white or black, (instead of "gray" as camera is calibrated for).

Click to expand...

Meanwhile I have for decades now used spot metering almost exclusively, with film and digital, and my exposures are right on the money. That's why I use spot metering, because I know I can get the precise exposure I want for practically all of my kind of shooting.

Click to expand...

How may decades ??? ...

tony field said:

tony field said:

And your earlier assertion that you can spot meter on a (50/50) black/white is (while theoretically correct) absurd. How can you accurately do that with a 1-degree spot ??? (and Panasonic has a "pin-point" focusing mode that is even smaller than 1-degree)

Click to expand...

None of the spot meters on any of the cameras I have owned have been so small in coverage area as to prevent me from doing what I have described.

Click to expand...

You do realize that ALL original "spot" meters were indeed 1%, and with a "tele" lens, you now can have even smaller than 1%.

My FZ has "pin-point" spot.

The smaller the spot, the easier it can be in a high-density scene.

tony field said:

tony field said:

The correct way is to on either the white -or- black and use appropriate EC, (or either the white or black will be "gray" w/out correction).

Click to expand...

That's your limited way, not mine. Ironic, considering you keep trying to characterize me as close minded.

Click to expand...

Either you want an 18% area (equivalent), or ETTR, (or "L"), ... there is no other purpose for "spot", (unless you want a DR analysis of the entire scene).

**************

But eagerly awaiting your definition of "compensate" and WHY you would want to do that when a 18% area is available, (and/or you don't want to do ETTR/L) ??

Click to expand...

There is nothing magical about 18% grey. It is simply a camera light meter compliance to ISO conventions regarding image conversion.

why make such a simple concept so complicated. Spot Metering on 18% area only gives you a reference light meter reading of that particular area. That may or may not give you a correct

Click to expand...

tony field said:

/desired exposure.

Click to expand...

tony field said:

If it does not, exposure compensation should be applied. If the area is not 18% Grey (such as skin tones, building wall etc) you would use a different estimated exposure compensation to move that particular toned to the appropriate tonality on the output image.

Click to expand...

tony field said:

There are many ways that you can use your camera facilities to correct inappropriate exposure as metered by your camera. Spot meter and exposure compensation are simply one specific technique. An external light meter is another option.

Click to expand...

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

No it doesn’t. What if there’s nothing in your scene of the right luminance value to give you the exposure you want?

Click to expand...

Then it will not work, as I have said elsewhere.

Click to expand...

You didn’t say so here.

Click to expand...

Read more, and more carefully.

Click to expand...

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

The thing is, its a very rare situation that you will have scenes like that.

Click to expand...

That depends what you photograph. Certainly not rare in my shooting of very high contrast scenes.

Click to expand...

That it's not rare for you doesn’t equal your style of shooting not being rare.

Click to expand...

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

I’m not even sure why you responded to or quoted my post.

Click to expand...

Why? You think I shouldn't be allowed to address you and what you have said?

Click to expand...

Sure. But you didn’t. You didn’t counter what I said (which is good, since it is fact), nor agree with it. You just brought up a whole different thing.

Click to expand...

I addressed being able to compensate exposure with a spot meter. Your remarks made it appear that it can't be done.

Click to expand...

Member said:

Obviously it can, which you have now acknowledged.

Click to expand...

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

By moving the spot meter accordingly within the scene you can adjust exposure. Fact. Therefore it follows that you can indeed use a spot meter to adjust exposure to your liking.

Click to expand...

Yes ...

Click to expand...

So after all your dismissals and telling me I was wrong you now say yes? Good Lord. Well, better late than never.

Member said:

But not as accurately as centering on "gray" for the theoretical "correct" exposure or optimum "ETTR" by placing on (brightest) white/highlight and +2/+3, (or "white" face @ +1).

Click to expand...

Not as accurately for you perhaps, but once you have enough experience with judging exposure that way it is easy. And no, it doesn’t take years to achieve that.

I marvel at the ability of guitar players to know where all the right finger placements should be and how each note should sound, and yet through practice they achieve that.

Member said:

Anything else is just "guessing", (which is fine w/ experience, but beginners should first be taught the "correct" method until they feel confident to deviate).

Click to expand...

How is it guessing if through "experience" one can do so accurately and consistently?

Correct method? No, you are simply providing one method. Both can be used, meaning both are correct.

Member said:

It does not help an admittedly confused OP to argue conflicting methods.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to be confused about and there's no conflict. You and others initially unwilling to even consider the obviousness of what I was saying are the ones that were leading to potential confusion and conflict on any novice's part. Good to see that you have come around to at least acknowledge that what I have been saying is valid. It's how I have taken nearly all of my photographs since the film only days, and with no issues.

Click to expand...

richiebee said:

Exposure compensation and Spot Metering are very different concepts. One is not a substitute for the other.

Spot metering defines the area that is metered. Exposure compensation tells your camera how much to deviate from the metered value. You can use them together or on their own.

Click to expand...

PhotoTeach2 said:

tony field said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

What if you have "no" (18%) gray in a scene, (maybe only black and white) ???

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You mix the two to your liking with the spot. Think of it as exposure compensation with the spot meter.

Click to expand...

Wrong again ... (then you might as well be using "Center-Weighted") ... "spot" is indeed specific to a specific "spot", (that is why it is called "spot" metering). And EC may OFTEN need to be used, (if not 18% reflectance).

Click to expand...

And by moving that spot around you can compensate with the spot meter. How is that difficult to understand?

Click to expand...

Please Phil ... open your mind and READ what others (smarter) have wrote.

Click to expand...

You keep trying to characterize me as closed minded. Enough with the ad hominem nonsense if you want me to keep responding.

Click to expand...

What gives you the idea I "want" you to respond ??? You are only confusing the OP w/ incorrect nonsense.

PhotoTeach2 said:

Stick to the message

Click to expand...

I have added to my "tutorial" MANY times, why don't you get that "message" ???

PhotoTeach2 said:

, not the messenger.

Click to expand...

Phil, with ALL DUE RESPECT ... your MESSAGE is WRONG !!!

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

You are not even making sense by "moving around to compensate".

The only reason to "move" is to center on a 18% reflected area, (which will indeed give a correct exposure).

Click to expand...

So if I find an 18% area but wish to compensate one way or the other are you saying that by shifting the position of the spot meter slightly to a part that is darker or lighter you can’t do that?

Click to expand...

WHY would you want to do that when 18% is the ideal target ??? That 18% area is what will give you a "correct" exposure, (indeed w/out EC).

PhotoTeach2 said:

That's a rhetorical question, by the way, because of course you can.

Click to expand...

Of course you "can", but WHY ???

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

But you indeed can move to other (not 18% reflectance), but then you MUST use EC or the exposure will be either darker or lighter as it tries to image a white or black as a (18%) "gray".

Click to expand...

Sigh. The slight movement I described above is the equivalent of compensating.

Click to expand...

WHAT do you mean by "compensate" ???

But if you were already on a 18% area, WHY would you want/need to "compensate" if you already have a "perfect" exposure ???

However ... IF I want to do ETTR, I might indeed find the "whitest" area in a scene and "spot" on that, (w/ +2 or +3).

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

It is really VERY SIMPLE ... but EC understanding is ESSENTIAL for proper exposure when spotting on either white or black, (instead of "gray" as camera is calibrated for).

Click to expand...

Meanwhile I have for decades now used spot metering almost exclusively, with film and digital, and my exposures are right on the money. That's why I use spot metering, because I know I can get the precise exposure I want for practically all of my kind of shooting.

Click to expand...

How may decades ??? ...

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

And your earlier assertion that you can spot meter on a (50/50) black/white is (while theoretically correct) absurd. How can you accurately do that with a 1-degree spot ??? (and Panasonic has a "pin-point" focusing mode that is even smaller than 1-degree)

Click to expand...

None of the spot meters on any of the cameras I have owned have been so small in coverage area as to prevent me from doing what I have described.

Click to expand...

You do realize that ALL original "spot" meters were indeed 1%, and with a "tele" lens, you now can have even smaller than 1%.

My FZ has "pin-point" spot.

The smaller the spot, the easier it can be in a high-density scene.

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

The correct way is to on either the white -or- black and use appropriate EC, (or either the white or black will be "gray" w/out correction).

Click to expand...

That's your limited way, not mine. Ironic, considering you keep trying to characterize me as close minded.

Click to expand...

Either you want an 18% area (equivalent), or ETTR, (or "L"), ... there is no other purpose for "spot", (unless you want a DR analysis of the entire scene).

**************

But eagerly awaiting your definition of "compensate" and WHY you would want to do that when a 18% area is available, (and/or you don't want to do ETTR/L) ??

Click to expand...

There is nothing magical about 18% grey. It is simply a camera light meter compliance to ISO conventions regarding image conversion.

why make such a simple concept so complicated. Spot Metering on 18% area only gives you a reference light meter reading of that particular area. That may or may not give you a correct

Click to expand...

Well YES it does give you a "correct" exposure, (by definition and camera/light-meter calibration).

PhotoTeach2 said:

/desired exposure.

Click to expand...

It may indeed not be the "desired" exposure, but that is different.

PhotoTeach2 said:

If it does not, exposure compensation should be applied. If the area is not 18% Grey (such as skin tones, building wall etc) you would use a different estimated exposure compensation to move that particular toned to the appropriate tonality on the output image.

Click to expand...

Absolutely !!!

PhotoTeach2 said:

There are many ways that you can use your camera facilities to correct inappropriate exposure as metered by your camera. Spot meter and exposure compensation are simply one specific technique. An external light meter is another option.

Click to expand...

And if used in "incident" mode, will produce the exact SAME exposure as spot-metering from a (18%) gray area illuminated by same lighting.

There is only one "correct" exposure -- unless looking for a different effect or ETTR.

The current OP is what is the quickest / easiest way (for a beginner) to arrive there.

Click to expand...

tony field said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

tony field said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

PhilDunn said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

PhilDunn said:

Dem Bell said:

To me the main two differences are 1) who's got the final say and 2) how it fits your workflow.

As soon as you touch exposure compensation after the camera metered the scene (in any metering mode) you are overriding cameras decision and take responsibility for choosing the final exposure. Whether you make this decision based on the histogram or the image brightness in the EVF or something else, it is your call.

If you use spot metering, it is your responsibility to point the camera to the part of the scene that you want to have a particular exposure for (it can be mid grey if EC=0 or say matt white if EC=2). Here you are trusting the camera to get it right. The problem is you need to know where to point the camera to. If you are shooting a portrait, the skin is a good reference point. Provided your subject is not sweaty and jumping around in flashing lights.

Click to expand...

By knowing where to point the camera in nearly all scenes you can use spot metering without any exposure compensation.

Click to expand...

What if you have "no" (18%) gray in a scene, (maybe only black and white) ???

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You mix the two to your liking with the spot. Think of it as exposure compensation with the spot meter.

Click to expand...

Wrong again ... (then you might as well be using "Center-Weighted") ... "spot" is indeed specific to a specific "spot", (that is why it is called "spot" metering). And EC may OFTEN need to be used, (if not 18% reflectance).

Click to expand...

And by moving that spot around you can compensate with the spot meter. How is that difficult to understand?

Click to expand...

Please Phil ... open your mind and READ what others (smarter) have wrote.

Click to expand...

You keep trying to characterize me as closed minded. Enough with the ad hominem nonsense if you want me to keep responding.

Click to expand...

What gives you the idea I "want" you to respond ??? You are only confusing the OP w/ incorrect nonsense.

tony field said:

Stick to the message

Click to expand...

I have added to my "tutorial" MANY times, why don't you get that "message" ???

tony field said:

, not the messenger.

Click to expand...

Phil, with ALL DUE RESPECT ... your MESSAGE is WRONG !!!

tony field said:

tony field said:

You are not even making sense by "moving around to compensate".

The only reason to "move" is to center on a 18% reflected area, (which will indeed give a correct exposure).

Click to expand...

So if I find an 18% area but wish to compensate one way or the other are you saying that by shifting the position of the spot meter slightly to a part that is darker or lighter you can’t do that?

Click to expand...

WHY would you want to do that when 18% is the ideal target ??? That 18% area is what will give you a "correct" exposure, (indeed w/out EC).

tony field said:

That's a rhetorical question, by the way, because of course you can.

Click to expand...

Of course you "can", but WHY ???

tony field said:

tony field said:

But you indeed can move to other (not 18% reflectance), but then you MUST use EC or the exposure will be either darker or lighter as it tries to image a white or black as a (18%) "gray".

Click to expand...

Sigh. The slight movement I described above is the equivalent of compensating.

Click to expand...

WHAT do you mean by "compensate" ???

But if you were already on a 18% area, WHY would you want/need to "compensate" if you already have a "perfect" exposure ???

However ... IF I want to do ETTR, I might indeed find the "whitest" area in a scene and "spot" on that, (w/ +2 or +3).

tony field said:

tony field said:

It is really VERY SIMPLE ... but EC understanding is ESSENTIAL for proper exposure when spotting on either white or black, (instead of "gray" as camera is calibrated for).

Click to expand...

Meanwhile I have for decades now used spot metering almost exclusively, with film and digital, and my exposures are right on the money. That's why I use spot metering, because I know I can get the precise exposure I want for practically all of my kind of shooting.

Click to expand...

How may decades ??? ...

tony field said:

tony field said:

And your earlier assertion that you can spot meter on a (50/50) black/white is (while theoretically correct) absurd. How can you accurately do that with a 1-degree spot ??? (and Panasonic has a "pin-point" focusing mode that is even smaller than 1-degree)

Click to expand...

None of the spot meters on any of the cameras I have owned have been so small in coverage area as to prevent me from doing what I have described.

Click to expand...

You do realize that ALL original "spot" meters were indeed 1%, and with a "tele" lens, you now can have even smaller than 1%.

My FZ has "pin-point" spot.

The smaller the spot, the easier it can be in a high-density scene.

tony field said:

tony field said:

The correct way is to on either the white -or- black and use appropriate EC, (or either the white or black will be "gray" w/out correction).

Click to expand...

That's your limited way, not mine. Ironic, considering you keep trying to characterize me as close minded.

Click to expand...

Either you want an 18% area (equivalent), or ETTR, (or "L"), ... there is no other purpose for "spot", (unless you want a DR analysis of the entire scene).

**************

But eagerly awaiting your definition of "compensate" and WHY you would want to do that when a 18% area is available, (and/or you don't want to do ETTR/L) ??

Click to expand...

There is nothing magical about 18% grey. It is simply a camera light meter compliance to ISO conventions regarding image conversion.

why make such a simple concept so complicated. Spot Metering on 18% area only gives you a reference light meter reading of that particular area. That may or may not give you a correct

Click to expand...

Well YES it does give you a "correct" exposure, (by definition and camera/light-meter calibration).

tony field said:

/desired exposure.

Click to expand...

It may indeed not be the "desired" exposure, but that is different.

tony field said:

If it does not, exposure compensation should be applied. If the area is not 18% Grey (such as skin tones, building wall etc) you would use a different estimated exposure compensation to move that particular toned to the appropriate tonality on the output image.

Click to expand...

Absolutely !!!

tony field said:

There are many ways that you can use your camera facilities to correct inappropriate exposure as metered by your camera. Spot meter and exposure compensation are simply one specific technique. An external light meter is another option.

Click to expand...

And if used in "incident" mode, will produce the exact SAME exposure as spot-metering from a (18%) gray area illuminated by same lighting.

There is only one "correct" exposure -- unless looking for a different effect or ETTR.

The current OP is what is the quickest / easiest way (for a beginner) to arrive there.

Click to expand...

You are effectively saying that, when using Auto exposure by the camera or any other metering system, correct exposure is whatever the device happens to indicate. If you switch among the various metering modes such as Center weighted average, spot, Matrix Etc., these are all correct exposures even though they can be dramatically different. If you apply any exposure compensation you are creating "incorrect exposures".

Click to expand...