Wither Olympus????

They can only do it when they have a better sensor. They have no control over that. Sensor refreshes are every three years.
What you describe as "refresh" are new sensors produced by Sony and other which offer only marginal improvements in IQ. I mentioned the X-T3 as an example. Very little overall improvements in IQ. It is slightly better at very high ISO--something that is of no value to many.

This is the problem right now. A new sensor might be better than the old one, but not by a lot. Fuji used a 24 MP sensor in the X-T2 and upgraded to a 28.5 in the X-T3. I don't think they make the former any longer. They didn't get much of a boost in IQ for it. Happily, there is a price break of $100 per copy.

Until there is a breakthrough in commercially available technology (something more than incremental), the IQ improvements are limited. This is the wall. The other features can be improved as noted here in the comments. But how much is left here? AF is very important. EVF is another area that upgrades are needed. Again, something more than an incremental improvement is needed to sell someone a $2,000 camera to replace the $2,000 camera he/she purchased 3 years ago
 
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At a point when we routinely deal with images that deliver levels of resolution, contrast that would have require MF or even 4x5 cameras and CIBACHROME processing when I started photography, far too much importance is accorded to the ever-seductive illusion that yet more IQ (pixels? bits? ISO?) will significantly improve our pictures. Dubious, at best.
...

Whither Olympus? Yes, they need to take a step forward with IQ or might be left behind by products with larger sensors or better prices..
The products with larger sensors and better prices left the gate three or four years ago easily. There's always a lag in awareness by consumers. It's very hard to take the blinders off and really look at what is being offered, and take stock...
You are correct, the products did leave the gate three or four years ago. It is tough to move to a new system if you have a drawer full of m43 lenses or other system. There was a great deal of awareness regarding Sony's technology and pricing.

What we see this year is that Canon and Nikon are jumping in to stop the bleeding of users (FF DSLR to FF mirrorless). There is Panasonic with its FF offering. Lastly, there is Fuji, that just knocked the socks off MF with a relatively reasonably priced entry and some very aggressive pricing.

There are a lot of camera makers chasing relatively few upper end customers at this point. What we know as a camera has been redefined in the past decade--phones and I-pads. Olympus is seeking to become a niche (m43) in this niche (cameras)
There have been two developments, from my interpretation of the anecdotal data I've come across, One is that Sony stumbled on a lucrative niche market with the a7ii and a7Rii and Fuji spread out it's product offerings, peeling off a good number of consumers interested in mirrorless ASP-C. People just aren't buying new cameras, probably because all the older ones are more than up to the task. Plus they have their cell phones if need be. Offering another warmed over version of a 16mp or 20mp retro probably doesn't cut it anymore. Probably stopped cutting it three years back.

The numbers seem to suggest that Olympus and Fuji swapped places maybe three years ago. Olympus users have been slow to upgrade, waiting for prices to drop before moving up to the E-m1-i and in the mean time Fuji offered some compelling reasons to switch. It would seem that Fuji is in the driver's seat for non DSLR cameras but they don't offer anything to compete directly in the a7ii market. The GFX 50R adds another wrinkle, but the a7Rii - a7Riii market is tiny (but lucrative!). The GFX 50R probably does interest the high-end market (read Leica), as does the Panasonic/Sigma/Leica offerings - but this is a small market.

If you're curious about wading through numbers, try looking at DPR's "I own it" for cameras. The E-M1-i numbers look good now but three years back, they were pretty pathetic, especially compared to the E-M5-i. And this is a five year old offering...

All-in-all, there are some compelling reasons now to move on, even with used. But for new, the Z with the promise of telecentric lenses for a 36x24 sensor or the GFX 50R as a step beyond the a7Riii all makes the market more interesting than it was in 2003 (IMHO ; - )
 
There have been two developments, from my interpretation of the anecdotal data I've come across, One is that Sony stumbled on a lucrative niche market with the a7ii and a7Rii and Fuji spread out it's product offerings, peeling off a good number of consumers interested in mirrorless ASP-C. People just aren't buying new cameras, probably because all the older ones are more than up to the task. Plus they have their cell phones if need be. Offering another warmed over version of a 16mp or 20mp retro probably doesn't cut it anymore. Probably stopped cutting it three years back.
Sony, whether by accident or design, landed the FF mirrorless market. They built a system and have worked hard at it. They were aided and abetted by Canon and Nikon, both of which sat this development out for years giving Sony a big head start with the technology. Sony tapped into these customers as well as other system customers. Full Frame for the masses and it there is great pricing.
The numbers seem to suggest that Olympus and Fuji swapped places maybe three years ago. Olympus users have been slow to upgrade, waiting for prices to drop before moving up to the E-m1-i and in the mean time Fuji offered some compelling reasons to switch. It would seem that Fuji is in the driver's seat for non DSLR cameras but they don't offer anything to compete directly in the a7ii market.
Back in 2016, I made a decision to go to Fuji while retaining my much beloved 43 gear. Fuji had some nice pricing on the previous generation X-T1 at the time and I bought it. One reason I went with Fuji over Olympus was price and another was the layout of the dials as opposed to the menu driven Olympus E-M1 ii. Fuji appealed to me over Olympus even though the E-M1 ii would allow me to use my legacy glass. I decided to wait and get a deal on the body. I am still waiting.

If you're curious about wading through numbers, try looking at DPR's "I own it" for cameras. The E-M1-i numbers look good now but three years back, they were pretty pathetic, especially compared to the E-M5-i. And this is a five year old offering...

All-in-all, there are some compelling reasons now to move on, even with used. But for new, the Z with the promise of telecentric lenses for a 36x24 sensor or the GFX 50R as a step beyond the a7Riii all makes the market more interesting than it was in 2003 (IMHO ; - )
 
...
Sony, whether by accident or design, landed the FF mirrorless market. They built a system and have worked hard at it. They were aided and abetted by Canon and Nikon, both of which sat this development out for years giving Sony a big head start with the technology. Sony tapped into these customers as well as other system customers. Full Frame for the masses and it there is great pricing.
...
Back in 2016, I made a decision to go to Fuji while retaining my much beloved 43 gear. Fuji had some nice pricing on the previous generation X-T1 at the time and I bought it. One reason I went with Fuji over Olympus was price and another was the layout of the dials as opposed to the menu driven Olympus E-M1 ii. Fuji appealed to me over Olympus even though the E-M1 ii would allow me to use my legacy glass. I decided to wait and get a deal on the body. I am still waiting.
I'm amazed Sony didn't make the later A series bodies weather proofed - especially the A7Riii and A9. Other than the 'video' look of the EVFs (which are now much improved for anyone with an open mind), this seems to be the main reason a load of my DSLR-owning friends haven't switched. I think they'd have converted more if they'd done that.

People used to Canikon all-weather reliability just don't trust a Sony, and I know people who have had problems (e.g. shutter button of an A7Rii freezing stuck in Iceland).

I love the differing control systems of both my Fuji X70 and Oly E-M1iis for different purposes - yes, it is great to look down on a Fuji and see exactly how it is set, and this sort of thing is supportive to new users straight out of the box.

However, although Olys are often said to be menu-driven, that's not actually true once you know them well and have configured the dials, buttons and levers how you want them. If I'm doing street or wildlife photography with the 1ii, I might go in to the menus once at the beginning of the day to set it up, but from dawn to dusk I then just use the hard controls. Yes, that does make a steeper learning curve, but it makes for an amazingly powerful control system once you've learned it. A harder sell, perhaps!
 
What do YOU think?
Olympus hit the wall in terms of IQ in 2016. Others makers have as well--the APS-C Fuji X-T3 is only marginally better than the X-T2 in terms of IQ. The link between "new" and "better" has been severed (in part) because IQ improvements are tough to come by right now with the sensors available. Consequently, the 3-year product could be in trouble.

Users can safely skip a generation in a camera and give up very little in IQ. Sure there are the bells and whistles that come with new models but they are costly to develop and many have little to do with IQ. Manufacturers can keep old models going with deep discounts. Dropping $2k for the next generation E-M1 that only marginally improves IQ is a tough proposition.

The answer seems to be FF or MF--bigger sensors are one way over the IQ wall. Better sensors not really there right now. Panasonic can sell the public a FF camera and lenses. Fuji can sell the public a MF camera and lenses starting at $5k. What can micro FT offer manufacturers and customers? Another prime? Discounts on three-year old models might be the answer in the short-term, improved IQ will sell in the long-term. Olympus needs better IQ.
I am with you
 
There have been two developments, from my interpretation of the anecdotal data I've come across, One is that Sony stumbled on a lucrative niche market with the a7ii and a7Rii and Fuji spread out it's product offerings, peeling off a good number of consumers interested in mirrorless ASP-C. People just aren't buying new cameras, probably because all the older ones are more than up to the task. Plus they have their cell phones if need be. Offering another warmed over version of a 16mp or 20mp retro probably doesn't cut it anymore. Probably stopped cutting it three years back.
Sony, whether by accident or design, landed the FF mirrorless market. They built a system and have worked hard at it. They were aided and abetted by Canon and Nikon, both of which sat this development out for years giving Sony a big head start with the technology. Sony tapped into these customers as well as other system customers. Full Frame for the masses and it there is great pricing.
IMHO the timing and aggressive nature of Sony's financial lifeline to then-struggling Olympus likely had something to do with their perceptive long-term strategy of using "FF" mirrorless as their wedge into the -then- Canikon-dominated pinnacles of the photography market. If I remember correctly, that technologically invasive partnership and the release of Sony's first really successful FF mirrorless cameras, to which excellent IBIS and a much more compact form-factor happened around the same time.

Remember, Sony had been making big marketing and technology investments for about a decade, with a variety of cameras and lenses, with limited success. They are a huge, megacorporation with a long history of opportunistic acquisitions and partnership,

Olympus, in contrast, has a long history of brilliant innovation. And much less brilliant corporate governance, product strategy and marketing.
 
They can only do it when they have a better sensor. They have no control over that. Sensor refreshes are every three years.
What you describe as "refresh" are new sensors produced by Sony and other which offer only marginal improvements in IQ. I mentioned the X-T3 as an example. Very little overall improvements in IQ. It is slightly better at very high ISO--something that is of no value to many.

This is the problem right now. A new sensor might be better than the old one, but not by a lot. Fuji used a 24 MP sensor in the X-T2 and upgraded to a 28.5 in the X-T3. I don't think they make the former any longer. They didn't get much of a boost in IQ for it. Happily, there is a price break of $100 per copy.

Until there is a breakthrough in commercially available technology (something more than incremental), the IQ improvements are limited. This is the wall. The other features can be improved as noted here in the comments. But how much is left here? AF is very important. EVF is another area that upgrades are needed. Again, something more than an incremental improvement is needed to sell someone a $2,000 camera to replace the $2,000 camera he/she purchased 3 years ago
Good points, and in fact a major reason I stay with Olympus is their much slower "product cycle". However, in a world dominated by illusions of eternal progress, that can hurt their bottom line.
 
. . . before they release any new flagship model.

It’s a great camera but the initial price paid by the early adopters (me) was in my opinion high for what it can do.

> C-AF needs a lot more development. Why the heck does the camera need to capture frames before it can get a sharp focus lock on a moving target ?

> they need to fix the C-AF Tr mode

> they need to improve AF precision with PDAF. Using 4/3 lenses (with which the camera only uses PDAF) precision is woeful, even with the small AF point.

And they should roll out some significant new features such as Astro Stacking and Trap Focus. Features that can be used irrespective of whether you are using Olympus, Panasonic or legacy 4/3 lenses. This business of restricting certain features to Oly Pro lenses is counter productive - eg why can’t I use ProCapture L with 4/3 lenses !

I want Olympus to make better cameras, not more cameras

Peter
Good points, though I am pretty impressed by what it can do, even with my old Bigma.
 
Good points, and in fact a major reason I stay with Olympus is their much slower "product cycle". However, in a world dominated by illusions of eternal progress, that can hurt their bottom line.
There is a key difference. When Olympus started OMD, it started with the E-M5 in 2012 and then went to the EM-1 I in 2013. The upgrade to E-M5 ii was essentially a camera that was in many ways, not all, was the equal of the E-M1 i and was a value if you could do without PDAF. The E-M1 in 2016 firmly reestablished the E-M1 in its flagship position by offering more than the E-M5 ii. Olympus worked the middle out strategy.

What we have now is that the middle out pattern could be no more--no E-M5 iii in 2018. Olympus might just be trying reposition itself to a top to bottom strategy. This makes sense if the incremental improvements are really slowing down, not only to IQ but other features such as IBIS. They need to widen the gap between the middle and top of the line cameras
 
What do YOU think?
Olympus needs better IQ.
I am with you
To photograph what, exactly? Would perhaps help for astrophotography - and for black cats in coal mines - or their shenanigans in dark bedrooms. But there are usually better, dedicated solutions that do such things more simply, and often cheaply.
To sell cameras is the point. Olympus m43 will whither otherwise.

They can keep the current product line and see where that leads the company, but the world is moving forward--Why FF? Better IQ is a start. Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
 
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Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
Yes, although sensor technology improvements have eroded it incrementally (for example, compare the E-M1ii with the EOS 1DX FF of 6 years ago - http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X,Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II )

Of course we don’t know at what speed sensors of all sizes will improve in the future (measured purely in IQ terms) but I’m not betting against further improvements across the board.

So, is there a relationship between sensor size and cost, size and weight of their associated long telephoto lenses? In my view this is a very much more solid and immobile wall.
 
Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
Yes, although sensor technology improvements have eroded it incrementally (for example, compare the E-M1ii with the EOS 1DX FF of 6 years ago - http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X,Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II )

Of course we don’t know at what speed sensors of all sizes will improve in the future (measured purely in IQ terms) but I’m not betting against further improvements across the board.

So, is there a relationship between sensor size and cost, size and weight of their associated long telephoto lenses? In my view this is a very much more solid and immobile wall.
Yes. This is another aspect of the problem. Given the current technology, a larger sensor will produce better IQ. This relationship will likely continue in the future even as sensor quality improves. Will the price of the sensor relative to the total cost of the camera decrease?

The answer might be found in the Fuji GFX-50R. This is about the relationship between large and smaller sensors but new versus older sensors. The gap between current and previous generation sensors is narrowing, thus the slowdown in IQ improvements. This decreases the advantages of new sensors, but it also helps older sensor remain relevant given that it is a way to lower the cost of a major input very little impact on IQ. The thing is that Fuji can package a dated sensor in a medium format camera and sell it at a very low price--$4,500 is the introductory price for this camera. The ratio of camera to sensor cost may or may not have changed but the price of the camera has. (Note: if you want a camera with the latest MF sensor and all the bells and whistles, wait until the 100MP GFX 100S arrives in March at a cost of reported price of $10,000 per copy). You can get a Sony A7 kit for $998 this morning at B&H. For Olympus, the question is whether a current generation 43 sensor can compete with a previous generations of FF sensor found in the A7?

Your comment regarding size and cost of FF versus Olympus is well taken. This is a part of the trade off. This would be appear to be the natural niche for m43. There is a cost and size advantage for m43 but does this translate into a value proposition for the customer?

The answer is it depends. Olympus should appeal to the traveler/hiker crowd dealing with weight and baggage restrictions at the airport or on the trail. It also appeals to the one key demographic--the 55+ crowd, of which I count myself a member, who loves photography but has lost the gusto to carry a lot of gear around. The superb IBIS is a help as well for the less steady hands that come with advancing age. We have some disposable income to both buy gear and travel. This is a significant segment that buys gear. Micro 43 should have some leverage in this segment--the thing is that most people I encounter on my hikes either have a phone or a FF Canon.
 
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Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
Yes, although sensor technology improvements have eroded it incrementally (for example, compare the E-M1ii with the EOS 1DX FF of 6 years ago - http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X,Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II )

Of course we don’t know at what speed sensors of all sizes will improve in the future (measured purely in IQ terms) but I’m not betting against further improvements across the board.

So, is there a relationship between sensor size and cost, size and weight of their associated long telephoto lenses? In my view this is a very much more solid and immobile wall.
Yes. This is another aspect of the problem. Given the current technology, a larger sensor will produce better IQ. This relationship will likely continue in the future even as sensor quality improves. Will the price of the sensor relative to the total cost of the camera decrease?

The answer might be found in the Fuji GFX-50R. This is about the relationship between large and smaller sensors but new versus older sensors. The gap between current and previous generation sensors is narrowing, thus the slowdown in IQ improvements. This decreases the advantages of new sensors, but it also helps older sensor remain relevant given that it is a way to lower the cost of a major input very little impact on IQ. The thing is that Fuji can package a dated sensor in a medium format camera and sell it at a very low price--$4,500 is the introductory price for this camera. The ratio of camera to sensor cost may or may not have changed but the price of the camera has. (Note: if you want a camera with the latest MF sensor and all the bells and whistles, wait until the 100MP GFX 100S arrives in March at a cost of $10,000 per copy). You can get a Sony A7 kit for $998 this morning at B&H. For Olympus, the question is whether a current generation 43 sensor can compete with a previous generations of FF or MF sensor?

Your comment regarding size and cost of FF versus Olympus is well taken. This is a part of the trade off. This would be appear to be the natural niche for m43. There is a cost and size advantage for m43 but does this translate into a value proposition for the customer?

The answer is it depends. Olympus should appeal to the traveler/hiker crowd dealing with weight and baggage restrictions at the airport or on the trail. It also appeals to the one key demographic--the 55+ crowd, of which I count myself a member, who loves photography but has lost the gusto to carry a lot of gear around. The superb IBIS is a help as well for the less steady hands that come with advancing age. We have some disposable income to both buy gear and travel. This is a significant segment that buys gear. Micro 43 should have some leverage in this segment--the thing is that most people I encounter on my hikes either have a phone or a FF Canon.
Yes, the 50R is potentially great: I'm going to have a play with one when available.

However, a lot of people are talking about it as a sort of FF camera but 'better'. Many of them are going to be disappointed.

I am not - I'm mainly looking for the unique 'feel' of the medium format image, which results from the narrower-than-FF dof and the way this falls off before and behind the focus plane. I'd be interested for portraiture and landscape (possibly also for quirky street, but that's not the real purpose).

So, whether it's an 'old' sensor or not is largely irrelevant for me, as are the Mp.

Although Fuji seem to have addressed a lot of practical MF failings as far as they can with the R and S, these bodies are still going to feel slow and deliberate and clunky, but that's what I'm after.

BTW the A7 kit is an ergonomic disaster, the 28-70 is weak, it suffers from shutter-shock, the camera's a dust-magnet and the bayonets fall apart: $998 is about what it's worth ;-) People obsess over sensors, but IMHO there's a lot more to a good camera than that.
 
Yes, the 50R is potentially great: I'm going to have a play with one when available.
It is something like my Subaru. Every once and a while I get an urge for an upgrade to something faster or better. My Subaru is adequate to almost every purpose I have (it will even exceed the posted speed limit with minimal effort on the highways). There is no rationale case for this camera for me and most users. I know this with almost no thought, nevertheless I did pencil out the costs of a kit when the camera was announced. I suspect many others did as well. $6k is a lot of money for a camera and lens.
However, a lot of people are talking about it as a sort of FF camera but 'better'. Many of them are going to be disappointed.
Yes, they will be and there should be a robust used market as a consequence.
I am not - I'm mainly looking for the unique 'feel' of the medium format image, which results from the narrower-than-FF dof and the way this falls off before and behind the focus plane. I'd be interested for portraiture and landscape (possibly also for quirky street, but that's not the real purpose).

So, whether it's an 'old' sensor or not is largely irrelevant for me, as are the Mp.
I still walk around with the old Olympus 43 gear. The sensor was dated when the cameras were released but the kits deliver in decent light outside. Works for me as a hobbyist. My Fuji kit is better is almost every respect, but the old FT has some attraction to me.
Although Fuji seem to have addressed a lot of practical MF failings as far as they can with the R and S, these bodies are still going to feel slow and deliberate and clunky, but that's what I'm after.
This is something that has been overlooked in the hoopla of GFX-50R. Fuji tried to project the GFX-50S as a street photography camera when it came out. It is not. Fuji is still left with the challenge of making the GFX-50R broader than a camera for landscapes and studios. Great if you want to carry the thing out into the wilderness with a tripod to do an Ansel Adams on some terrific view contemplating its composition for hours--not friendly to stuff in the bag for a hike in the mountains. Birds and sports are out of the question. The GFX-50R will be smaller than the 50S but not better. At least it will be discrete on the street with its packaging.
BTW the A7 kit is an ergonomic disaster, the 28-70 is weak, it suffers from shutter-shock, the camera's a dust-magnet and the bayonets fall apart: $998 is about what it's worth ;-) People obsess over sensors, but IMHO there's a lot more to a good camera than that.
I agree with your observation regarding sensors and cameras. The sensor issue is overplayed in many ways, but it is an unavoidable part of the discussion with respect to this thread--The answer to the question "Wither Olympus" has some relationship to IQ and how Olympus responds to the changing landscape that we had a view of at Photokina.
 
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What do YOU think?
Olympus needs better IQ.
I am with you
To photograph what, exactly? Would perhaps help for astrophotography - and for black cats in coal mines - or their shenanigans in dark bedrooms. But there are usually better, dedicated solutions that do such things more simply, and often cheaply.
To sell cameras is the point. Olympus m43 will whither otherwise.
Can't resist... after my initial mis-spelling of whither...
They can keep the current product line and see where that leads the company, but the world is moving forward--Why FF? Better IQ is a start. Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
More seriously, at a point where the whole camera market if shrinking steadily, and at which they have attained credible features, it makes sense to hang onto the niche in which that they've established a significant market
 
Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
Yes, although sensor technology improvements have eroded it incrementally (for example, compare the E-M1ii with the EOS 1DX FF of 6 years ago - http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS 1D X,Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II )

Of course we don’t know at what speed sensors of all sizes will improve in the future (measured purely in IQ terms) but I’m not betting against further improvements across the board.

So, is there a relationship between sensor size and cost, size and weight of their associated long telephoto lenses? In my view this is a very much more solid and immobile wall.
While there will always be some need for significantly higher "IQ" in particular areas of photography, I think that for the large majority of photographers, and possibly even a majority of pros, we are well into a stage of sensor technology in which we are dealing with ever-diminishing returns as it advances further,
 
To sell cameras is the point. Olympus m43 will whither otherwise.
Can't resist... after my initial mis-spelling of whither...
LOL--I am butchering the language today (as is the case with many other days)
They can keep the current product line and see where that leads the company, but the world is moving forward--Why FF? Better IQ is a start. Is there a relationship between sensor size and IQ?
More seriously, at a point where the whole camera market if shrinking steadily, and at which they have attained credible features, it makes sense to hang onto the niche in which that they've established a significant market
Whither and Wither cannot be decoupled in this case. Yes, they have a niche, but this niche is contracting (withering). My guess is that in the meeting rooms at Olympus there are "whither" discussions taking place that are not be much different than this thread or the many others that have discussed reduced sales.

The good news for Olympus is that while they have their troubles, so does everyone else Panasonic has an uphill road in its FF adventure.
 
Olympus can be (and could have been) right back in the thick of things with just a few items that some of you have already mentioned in this thread.

1) An EM-5 MkIII with at least the EM-1s 20MP sensor and some updates. Way overdue. The EM-5 and EM-1 are absolutely brilliant cameras that evoke the brilliance of the OM-1. Just keep improving them please!

2) A super-telephoto zoom lens of high quality to provide birders (organic and aluminum) with something other than the Panasonic 100-400 which is at its worst at 400mm, and the Oly 300mm (and TC) that are excellent but fixed focal length.

3) Some new features as mentioned by "M". Astro stacking in camera being very high on my list, but some other mentioned ideas would do nicely. And firmware AF improvements please! My Canon EOS 77D absolutely shames every Olympus and Panasonic camera I have ever owned with regards to auto-focus, and it's an inexpensive camera.

That's all it would take for Olympus to be right back in the mix but they certainly look to be on the side of the road dead right now. They may not be...but it sure looks that way.

Olympus burned me by abandoning Four-Thirds and I've never forgot (or forgiven) that. Lately the high end lenses I've been buying are Canon mount...

Oly
 
So, in regards to image quality only, what do people want to see here from Olympus, regarding just that?
 

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