Nikon APS-C mirrorless mount

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Nikon APS-C mirrorless mount


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If Nikon really tried, I bet they could release a cut-down full-frame mirrorless w/cut-down lens for $700 in the nearish future, negating the need for DX mirrorless altogether.

From an engineering perspective, they could save money not only by cutting costs, both for bodies (build quality/materials, buttons, IBIS, EVF size/quality/presence, etc) and lenses (corrections, number of lenses, sharpness, speed, etc), but also by simplifying the product line/engineering pipeline.

From a marketing perspective it would also have huge advantages for Nikon's strategy of attracting new users with cheap but functional equipment and then "graduating" them to the expensive stuff. That strategy never made any sense with DX/FX DSLRs: why would users who were attracted to the light weight and low price of DX buy heavy/expensive FX lenses as a bridge to heavy/expensive FX DSLRs?
There may soon come a time for the 24x36mm format to come back home and be viable for a super wide swath of users, just like it used to be.

There are hints at this with the cheaper lenses in Sony's FE system. But someone could really develop the concept with a new entry-level body and some extra slow zooms. (Makes for a compelling upgrade path, or a nice fully inter-compatible backup/casual rig.)

With no current smaller format MILC system, it seems to me like Nikon could be in a unique position to try this.
 
If Nikon really tried, I bet they could release a cut-down full-frame mirrorless w/cut-down lens for $700 in the nearish future, negating the need for DX mirrorless altogether.

From an engineering perspective, they could save money not only by cutting costs, both for bodies (build quality/materials, buttons, IBIS, EVF size/quality/presence, etc) and lenses (corrections, number of lenses, sharpness, speed, etc), but also by simplifying the product line/engineering pipeline.

From a marketing perspective it would also have huge advantages for Nikon's strategy of attracting new users with cheap but functional equipment and then "graduating" them to the expensive stuff. That strategy never made any sense with DX/FX DSLRs: why would users who were attracted to the light weight and low price of DX buy heavy/expensive FX lenses as a bridge to heavy/expensive FX DSLRs?
There may soon come a time for the 24x36mm format to come back home and be viable for a super wide swath of users, just like it used to be.
The D1 inaugurated DX and was top end nearly 2 decades back. Big advances since. It will be a sad farewell but I suspect the D500 is my last DX camera.

I offloaded all my DX lenses in early 2016 and then have only invested in FX glass. Some of these are MF since bought Used, with a couple of classic AIS primes I've had new since the 1980s. The ultrawide arena is the only gap on DX, where FX lenses do not overlap, but I almost always use 15mm or longer on the Df or D850.
There are hints at this with the cheaper lenses in Sony's FE system. But someone could really develop the concept with a new entry-level body and some extra slow zooms. (Makes for a compelling upgrade path, or a nice fully inter-compatible backup/casual rig.)

With no current smaller format MILC system, it seems to me like Nikon could be in a unique position to try this.
Yes. But I would still argue smaller DX MILC will still be affordable entry for newly minted Nikonians on tighter budgets.... there will be a plethora of Used DX kit lenses around for years - nearly all these kit lenses are most decent optics. Then we will have all the older MF glass. The latter could take decades to dwindle....And why won't it become all the more legendary?
 
I'm done with FF (just as I'm done with flapping mirrors) and settled on 1.5x crop. Thus, so far, only Sony and Fuji are really competing for my money, so to speak.

I'm looking forward to Nikon introducing mirrorless DX -- I doubt I'll switch to it any time soon (lenses!), but competition is always good. Having zero brand loyalty, I do not rule out switching in the future, though: Nikon does do many things better than Sony (Snap Bridge, with all its deficiencies, is one of them).

According to Thom Hogan, Nikon's DX to FX unit sales is appr. 9 to 1, so they are IMO bound to release mirrorless DX sooner or later.

What mount will it use? Z is not obvious because of its size: Z6 & Z7 are about as small as they can be (there's hardly any space above or below the mount). Thom Hogan recons mirrorless F (and use of AF-P lenses) is an option for APS-C, which I consider... well, strange; but stranger things did happen.

What's your pick? What will Nikon do with smaller-than-FX mirrorless cameras?
There's another option: I think Nikon should do away with APS-C and settle on a 2x crop factor, which shares Z-mount.

APS-C is just too close to FF, and it was originally just a stopgap before FF sensors were commercially viable.

With a 2x crop, I think Nikon would be very competitive when it comes to either price or reach.

Imagine how fast & cost effective a 2x crop, high-speed camera + 300 PF would be--especially at decent resolution. All the latest sensor tech (like global shutter) would come to this camera before APS-C as well. Or how cheap an entry-level 2x crop system could be, that shares Z mount, relative to APS-C.

Reminder: Canon may have shot themselves in the foot. Their APS-C mirrorless system is completely incompatible with their new FF mount. They'll either have to abandon the system, abandon the APS-C format, or maintain two distinct product lines...

Fuji has 2 formats almost 2 stops apart.

And Panny appears to be entering FF, again with 2 stops apart.

I think 2 stops of format difference in formats is the correct split for formats. 1-stop is just too close IMO. The good APS-C's are all in the $1k range. Shrink the format, and Nikon could conievably produce some killer cameras for under $1k, and probably as cheap as $200. It would just be up to them to ensure they make lenses to match, which they failed to do with DX and with Nikon1. I'd rather have a 2x crop F/2 than a DX F/3.5.
 
I'm done with FF (just as I'm done with flapping mirrors) and settled on 1.5x crop. Thus, so far, only Sony and Fuji are really competing for my money, so to speak.
I don't think Sony is serious about lens part of the APS-C market any more. Exception: cinema (Super 35) lenses. And I'm beginning to wonder about Zeiss (big exception for cinema lenses).
They slowed down, that's true.

That said, what I actually miss are just a few lenses: a good portrait lens (50/1.8 I have is a bit short; would love it to be STF/APD, too), and a macro lens (still have to use Canon 100/2.8 with adapter; less than ideal). Also, wouldn't mind having something shorter than 10-18/4, a-la Fuji 8-16 (but way lighter: I don't need f/2.8).

Other than that, I'm all set.
I havent read many of the comments, I think Nikon will use the Z mount for a DX model, and this is why



587bef53ec1c4c6a96bb876beffa3f9d.jpg.png

The mount diameter of the Canon is only 1mm smaller than the Z mount, considering it has a mirror mechanism and pentaprism it's a very similar size to the Z7 and could lose a little bulk from the pentaprism area. I have held the Z7 and found it comfortable, I definately would not want a smaller body, although I think a smaller body could easily be produced.

--
Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."
 
Why wait for Nikon mirrorless DX? They've had 15+ years of DX F-mount and in that time did diddly squat as far as lenses go, and now you can't wait to restart the experience with APSC Z Mount lenses??? You must be a masochist.
Agree completely. It is amazing that they basically couldn't care less about DX users even though the overwhelming majority of their body sales are DX.

When my D90 was due for replacement a number of years ago, I was considering the D7200, but felt that Nikon's DX lens selection wasn't going anywhere (which turned out to be absolutely true later on), so I ended up doing what Nikon wanted and got a D610.
 
There's another option: I think Nikon should do away with APS-C and settle on a 2x crop factor, which shares Z-mount.
Not happening.

That's basically, revival of 1-series: many people don't realize how close is 1" to CX: we're talking about the 2.7x vs 2x crop factor difference here.

Besides: what about lenses?? For 1.5x people can use existing Nikon lenses with the adapter. For the 2x crop, what will Nikon do, create an adapter for MFC? :-D
APS-C is just too close to FF, and it was originally just a stopgap before FF sensors were commercially viable.
Yes, it started like that.

Then it became not just a viable option for many (myself included), but a sweet spot for non-pro shooters, by far outselling FF.

Sensor isn't everything, there are also lenses (their size and weight).
Canon may have shot themselves in the foot. Their APS-C mirrorless system is completely incompatible with their new FF mount.
They certainly did, having had to choose between bad (further crippling APS-C) and worse (having smaller mount throat than their arch-rival) -- as they saw it.

I'm sure their marketing will try to put a positive spin on it, but they did make a huge crack in their ecosystem. Time will tell what effect will it have...
I think 2 stops of format difference in formats is the correct split for formats.
Yes, it is. But they have to work with what they have.
 
I think 2 stops of format difference in formats is the correct split for formats. 1-stop is just too close IMO. The good APS-C's are all in the $1k range. Shrink the format, and Nikon could conievably produce some killer cameras for under $1k, and probably as cheap as $200. It would just be up to them to ensure they make lenses to match, which they failed to do with DX and with Nikon1. I'd rather have a 2x crop F/2 than a DX F/3.5.
Nope, ALL Nikon's APS-C cameras are good, and they start at the pocket-money level. Depends what you want. But they satisfy a range of pockets; someone who plumbs for a D3*** may not be willing to splurge more dosh on a more expensive model, for a number of reasons. I don't think Nikon will want to ditch their APS-C market.
 
There's another option: I think Nikon should do away with APS-C and settle on a 2x crop factor, which shares Z-mount.
Not happening.

That's basically, revival of 1-series: many people don't realize how close is 1" to CX: we're talking about the 2.7x vs 2x crop factor difference here.

Besides: what about lenses?? For 1.5x people can use existing Nikon lenses with the adapter. For the 2x crop, what will Nikon do, create an adapter for MFC? :-D
This isn't about "what will happen" or not. This is about options.

And it's not a revival of the 1-series. The format I'm describing is closer to APS-C than it is to 1". Goes both ways.

And you ask, what about lenses? Same thing people did for APS-C. APS-C is 1.5x of full-frame. 2x crop is 1.5x of APS-C. It's the same thing. But a majority of people on APS-C do NOT use full-frame lenses. They use DX lenses.

But they don't use fast DX lenses, because on APS-C, they're far too expensive. They use F/3.5-5.6 lenses. And F/3.5-5.6 lenses on APS-C will be slower or comparable to F/2.8 lenses on 2x-crop sensor.
APS-C is just too close to FF, and it was originally just a stopgap before FF sensors were commercially viable.
Yes, it started like that.

Then it became not just a viable option for many (myself included), but a sweet spot for non-pro shooters, by far outselling FF.

Sensor isn't everything, there are also lenses (their size and weight).
It's still like that. DX is commercially cheaper, and sells to people who don't want to spend much...

except these people also don't invest heavy in lenses. Because quality APS-C lenses are still relatively expensive.

You keep referencing lenses, but are seemingly ignorant to the actual lenses that were released while ignoring which lenses should be released.

Most Nikon DX lenses are in the range of F/3.5 - 5.6. This is the only way they could get "cheap". Nikon could counter this with 2x-crop lenses in the range of F/2-4.

An F/2 or F/2.8 2x-crop will outperform an F/3.5-4 APS-C. This is a basic fact that you are ignoring by cherrypicking. And most Nikon DX shooters don't buy the DX F/2 - F/2.8 lenses because they are too expensive for them.

"1-stop behind FX" is still too expensive for most budding photographers who get into DX.

How many people bought Nikon's $1500 17-55mm F/2.8 standard zoom? They don't. They use the 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6 lenses. And they would get better performance with a 12-35mm F/2.8 for 2x-crop format.

Quality APS-C as a format is still too pricey for most people. So they buy slow lenses, on relatively pricey APS-C cameras. They would be better off by getting cheaper cameras, or more camera for their buck with a smaller format + cheaper lenses, or lenses that equalize to APS-C.

And in addition, pros / prosumers would get fast cameras (faster than the D500), for similar price ranges, with more reach. Pair with a 300mm F/4 PF for a serious, compact birder/wildlife kit for price of a D850 body alone.
Canon may have shot themselves in the foot. Their APS-C mirrorless system is completely incompatible with their new FF mount.
They certainly did, having had to choose between bad (further crippling APS-C) and worse (having smaller mount throat than their arch-rival) -- as they saw it.

I'm sure their marketing will try to put a positive spin on it, but they did make a huge crack in their ecosystem. Time will tell what effect will it have...
I think 2 stops of format difference in formats is the correct split for formats.
Yes, it is. But they have to work with what they have.
Nikon doesn't have an APS-C mirrorless released today. So your point here makes no sense whatsoever.
 
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I really think there will always be budget priced APSC cameras from Nikon. Whether they be DSLR or MILC, there is a strong market for these.

The product in jeopardy due to FF MILC is probably the "pro level" APSC stuff. Like the D500 and high end APSC lenses.

I say this because their prices are too close to full frame, and full frame has the image quality advantage. When people want the best image quality, then things like size and weight don't matter as much.
 
.....

I think 2 stops of format difference in formats is the correct split for formats. 1-stop is just too close IMO. The good APS-C's are all in the $1k range. Shrink the format, and Nikon could conievably produce some killer cameras for under $1k, and probably as cheap as $200. It would just be up to them to ensure they make lenses to match, which they failed to do with DX and with Nikon1. I'd rather have a 2x crop F/2 than a DX F/3.5.
Nope, ALL Nikon's APS-C cameras are good, and they start at the pocket-money level. Depends what you want. But they satisfy a range of pockets; someone who plumbs for a D3*** may not be willing to splurge more dosh on a more expensive model, for a number of reasons. I don't think Nikon will want to ditch their APS-C market.
Take a look at Nikon's DX lenses, and tell me that that they've got a good range.

They don't. Nikon's DX lenses are all F/3.5-5.6 for a reason. Their faster lenses, like the $1500 17-55mm F/2.8 are too expensive for most DX shooters. At that point, might as well get a full frame + 24-120 F/4.

What Nikon really needs is more camera for the buck around the $250-750 price range + lenses that are in a similar range. The problem is enthusiast DX cameras start over $1000, with no lenses in a moderate range.

It's a myth that Nikon's DX system is 1-stop behind FX. In reality, when accounting for lens selection, Nikon DX is about 3 stops behind FX. I'm recommending Nikon speeds this up by moving to 2 stops behind. Make the camera sensors 1 stop slower, and the lenses 2 stops faster--while covering a smaller image circle, and offering more diverse lens selection.

Take a look at Nikon's lens sale page, if you don't believe me on their DX range:
Notice a pattern with lens speeds? And prices? How much are those F/2.8 zooms? Are those in the range of the average DX buyer?

If we look at Nikon's Z (full-frame) launch, we've got 3 lenses:
  • 35mm F/1.8 ($850)
  • 50mm F/1.8 ($600)
  • 24-70mm F/4 ($1000)
For a similar launch, for 2x crop, I'd want to see:
  • 17.5mm F/2 ($200)
  • 25mm F/2 ($150)
  • 12-35mm F/2.8 ($500)
Which is in the range that these buyers are comfortable in, and will be comparable to their DX counterparts.
 
For a similar launch, for 2x crop, I'd want to see:
  • 17.5mm F/2 ($200)
  • 25mm F/2 ($150)
  • 12-35mm F/2.8 ($500)
Which is in the range that these buyers are comfortable in, and will be comparable to their DX counterparts.
If you want a 2X crop factor then look no further than M4/3.

Now, lenses of the same focal length and speed should cost around the same to make. I just don't see how Nikon could make those lenses so cheaply.

Here's what M4/3 has for very similar lenses:
  • Olympus 17mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Olympus 25mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 ($900)
Your example of three lenses comes to $850.

But real lenses with very similar construction cost exactly twice as much at $1,700.

Are you assuming that Nikon will sell their lenses at a loss?
 
For a similar launch, for 2x crop, I'd want to see:
  • 17.5mm F/2 ($200)
  • 25mm F/2 ($150)
  • 12-35mm F/2.8 ($500)
Which is in the range that these buyers are comfortable in, and will be comparable to their DX counterparts.
If you want a 2X crop factor then look no further than M4/3.

Now, lenses of the same focal length and speed should cost around the same to make. I just don't see how Nikon could make those lenses so cheaply.

Here's what M4/3 has for very similar lenses:
  • Olympus 17mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Olympus 25mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 ($900)
Your example of three lenses comes to $850.

But real lenses with very similar construction cost exactly twice as much at $1,700.

Are you assuming that Nikon will sell their lenses at a loss?
I already have m4/3. What m4/3 doesn't give me is the ability to adapt my Nikon lenses seamlessly.

Are you assuming that those micro four thirds lenses are sold at cost? Not that they were trying to recoup some R&D for their new venture? Or that they designed particularly sharp lenses, as Nikon did with their Z's? I could realistically say that a 50mm F/1.8 full frame costs $200 . Or that a 50mm F/1.8 full frame realistically costs $600 .

Like take that 25mm F/1.8 for $400--this is more expensive than the APS-C & the FF equivalent focal lengths @ F/1.8. But what you're failing to do is what is (for whatever reason) so common here: take a focal length, an f-number and compare away.

Examples of prices for existing lenses don't define all possible prices. Unless you're also claiming that a 23mm F/1.8 lens was impossible for Nikon DX?

Why didn't you throw in examples like this $150 25mm F/1.7 from Panasonic?:
Because you're interested in justifying your agenda rather than listening to a rational argument?

And let me remind you: even that 12-35mm F/2.8 for $900 is far cheaper than Nikon's $1500 DX 17-55mm F/2.8.
 
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I'd definitely would buy an APS-C camera with Z mount. I hope it will be made in some forseeable future.

FF 24 is not interesting for me, FF 45 is way too pricey so please make a camera for us who have less money,,,
 
Why wait for Nikon mirrorless DX? They've had 15+ years of DX F-mount and in that time did diddly squat as far as lenses go, and now you can't wait to restart the experience with APSC Z Mount lenses??? You must be a masochist.
LOL! As a former Nikon DX user I hear ya! :-)

I waited in vain for Nikon to make a large aperture 23mm (35mm FF equivalence), DX prime for my DX DSLRs, but it never happened,
+1
but that I have moved to Fujifilm I have a choice of two 23mm primes. Funny how one of the first three Z lenses is a 35mm f/1.8. How is that for a bag over the head and punch in the face to Nikon DX users! :-(

However, the saving grace for Nikon DX was always the third party lens makers, Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina who turned out some very good lenses at affordable prices. I even wonder if I would have stayed with Nikon DX for as long as I did without those third party angels. Probably not.
I wish one of them made a small 23mm DX prime
 
I see no reason why Nikon wouldn't standardize their future to the Z mount for DX as well as FX.
It's because in that scenario, APS offers no advantage whatsoever.

The body won't be smaller; the lens mount puts a big constraint on the body size.

Lenses won't be much smaller. Not to mention that developing a bunch of "DZ" lenses will be very costly, at a time when Nikon doesn't have a big war chest.

It's not 2010. I'm pretty sure that 24mp 35mm sensors aren't all that much more expensive than 24mp APS sensors.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Nikon is going to make an APS mirrorless. I think they're just going to skip it.
Agreed Nikon DX mirrorless on any mount now seems totally pointless without lenses .

F mount DX has had a very poor range of fast dedicated glass for years , why would DX mirrorless be any different ?

Despite all those Nikon issues , what about the APS- C and M43s opposition ?

Fujifilm / Panasonic / Olympus have that market sewn up including lenses .
 
...

Fuji has 2 formats almost 2 stops apart.

And Panny appears to be entering FF, again with 2 stops apart.
I wondered about this many times. Whenever I was tempted to buy a FF camera, I was convinced that the difference above my D7200 is not that much.

Similarly, whenever I like an MFT camera, it was not so much behind D7200.

Realistically, I think I will go to FF sooner than later. When the time comes to replace D7200, it will be with a M43.

If Panasonic announces something before I buy a Nikon FF, then I'll have M43 and FF options in Panasonic.

This confusion about the future and ignoring smaller format is probably holding off lot of potential buyers like me. I have spent about $6K over the past 6 years. If there were DX lenses I wanted then it could have been double that amount. That may be nothing in overall Nikon revenue, but, if there are a million such people around the world then that would be bad for Nikon :)
I think 2 stops of format difference in formats is the correct split for formats. 1-stop is just too close IMO. The good APS-C's are all in the $1k range. Shrink the format, and Nikon could conievably produce some killer cameras for under $1k, and probably as cheap as $200. It would just be up to them to ensure they make lenses to match, which they failed to do with DX and with Nikon1. I'd rather have a 2x crop F/2 than a DX F/3.5.
 
For a similar launch, for 2x crop, I'd want to see:
  • 17.5mm F/2 ($200)
  • 25mm F/2 ($150)
  • 12-35mm F/2.8 ($500)
Which is in the range that these buyers are comfortable in, and will be comparable to their DX counterparts.
If you want a 2X crop factor then look no further than M4/3.

Now, lenses of the same focal length and speed should cost around the same to make. I just don't see how Nikon could make those lenses so cheaply.

Here's what M4/3 has for very similar lenses:
  • Olympus 17mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Olympus 25mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 ($900)
Your example of three lenses comes to $850.

But real lenses with very similar construction cost exactly twice as much at $1,700.

Are you assuming that Nikon will sell their lenses at a loss?
I already have m4/3. What m4/3 doesn't give me is the ability to adapt my Nikon lenses seamlessly.
You lost me here...

What current Nikon lenses do you find suitable at all for an MFT camera?

MFT has one of the most complete lens line-ups. Why anyone would want to adapt anything for a camera with 4/3" sensor is completely beyond me.
Examples of prices for existing lenses don't define all possible prices.
And yet it's the most robust way to estimate costs. Everything else is fantasy.
 
For a similar launch, for 2x crop, I'd want to see:
  • 17.5mm F/2 ($200)
  • 25mm F/2 ($150)
  • 12-35mm F/2.8 ($500)
Which is in the range that these buyers are comfortable in, and will be comparable to their DX counterparts.
If you want a 2X crop factor then look no further than M4/3.

Now, lenses of the same focal length and speed should cost around the same to make. I just don't see how Nikon could make those lenses so cheaply.

Here's what M4/3 has for very similar lenses:
  • Olympus 17mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Olympus 25mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 ($900)
Your example of three lenses comes to $850.

But real lenses with very similar construction cost exactly twice as much at $1,700.

Are you assuming that Nikon will sell their lenses at a loss?
I already have m4/3. What m4/3 doesn't give me is the ability to adapt my Nikon lenses seamlessly.
You lost me here...

What current Nikon lenses do you find suitable at all for an MFT camera?

MFT has one of the most complete lens line-ups. Why anyone would want to adapt anything for a camera with 4/3" sensor is completely beyond me.
Read my previous posts above. I listed at least one scenario that would be suitable. You probably missed it, though. You weren't here to listen to a valid perspective--instead you were here to debate.

I'd challenge you with the same: Which current Nikon lenses do you find suitable at all for an APS-C mirrorless? I take it you never change lenses, or find certain lenses better than others for certain applications?

And again, it's not an MFT camera.
Examples of prices for existing lenses don't define all possible prices.
And yet it's the most robust way to estimate costs. Everything else is fantasy.
No, it's really not. For example, you listed a lens for $400 that I found for $150. And I provided more clear examples: look at the 50 F/1.8's for F & Z. Prices all over the map: from $200 - $2000.

Also, I listed some questions & points for you, that you deleted. Are you going to ignore them? Is this a one-sided debate where you won't respond to my points, but expect me to respond to yours?
 
For a similar launch, for 2x crop, I'd want to see:
  • 17.5mm F/2 ($200)
  • 25mm F/2 ($150)
  • 12-35mm F/2.8 ($500)
Which is in the range that these buyers are comfortable in, and will be comparable to their DX counterparts.
If you want a 2X crop factor then look no further than M4/3.

Now, lenses of the same focal length and speed should cost around the same to make. I just don't see how Nikon could make those lenses so cheaply.

Here's what M4/3 has for very similar lenses:
  • Olympus 17mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Olympus 25mm f/1.8 ($400)
  • Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 ($900)
Your example of three lenses comes to $850.

But real lenses with very similar construction cost exactly twice as much at $1,700.

Are you assuming that Nikon will sell their lenses at a loss?
I already have m4/3. What m4/3 doesn't give me is the ability to adapt my Nikon lenses seamlessly.
You lost me here...

What current Nikon lenses do you find suitable at all for an MFT camera?

MFT has one of the most complete lens line-ups. Why anyone would want to adapt anything for a camera with 4/3" sensor is completely beyond me.
Read my previous posts above. I listed at least one scenario that would be suitable. You probably missed it, though. You weren't here to listen to a valid perspective--instead you were here to debate.

I'd challenge you with the same: Which current Nikon lenses do you find suitable at all for an APS-C mirrorless? I take it you never change lenses, or find certain lenses better than others for certain applications?

And again, it's not an MFT camera.
Examples of prices for existing lenses don't define all possible prices.
And yet it's the most robust way to estimate costs. Everything else is fantasy.
No, it's really not. For example, you listed a lens for $400 that I found for $150.
Me? I didn't list anything. Marty did.
And I provided more clear examples: look at the 50 F/1.8's for F & Z. Prices all over the map: from $200 - $2000.

Also, I listed some questions & points for you, that you deleted. Are you going to ignore them?
Since you asked Marty, not me -- yes.
Is this a one-sided debate where you won't respond to my points, but expect me to respond to yours?
I do not expect anything from you. Seriously. And it's not a "debate" -- for me; it's not winnable, and even if it was, why bother?

I read your post, which was (to me!) baffling, since even on APS-C body FF lenses have very limited usefulness (the only lens I still use on my Sony a6500 is Canon 70-300 DO, even though I have a lot of Canon glass), and asked a question, that's all.
 
...

Fuji has 2 formats almost 2 stops apart.

And Panny appears to be entering FF, again with 2 stops apart.
I wondered about this many times. Whenever I was tempted to buy a FF camera, I was convinced that the difference above my D7200 is not that much.

Similarly, whenever I like an MFT camera, it was not so much behind D7200.

Realistically, I think I will go to FF sooner than later. When the time comes to replace D7200, it will be with a M43.

If Panasonic announces something before I buy a Nikon FF, then I'll have M43 and FF options in Panasonic.

This confusion about the future and ignoring smaller format is probably holding off lot of potential buyers like me. I have spent about $6K over the past 6 years. If there were DX lenses I wanted then it could have been double that amount. That may be nothing in overall Nikon revenue, but, if there are a million such people around the world then that would be bad for Nikon :)
Yes, we'll see what they actually do. I think this is what they should do.

There are (at least) three key aspects that are getting increasingly important as differentiators: size, price, and processing. Meanwhile, phones are often getting better & better, both from physical sensor readout, and from software processing perspectives. Because smaller sensors shine in this arena. We'll see affordable global shutters first on smaller sensors, just like we've previously seen BSI, stacked sensors, on-sensor PDAF, IBIS--and even cameras themselves--on smaller sensors first.

And for most consumers FF is often overkill, as is APS-C. These formats tend to be slower to adopt this newer technology, because they're relatively large.

The one "complete" (or close) APS-C system I see is with Fuji, and it's borderline expensive for many people. You'll often hear complaints on the lens pricing, even though the lenses are sharp & fast. But the they're too sharp and too fast for most people--they don't want to pay for these aspects.

I think the winning formula will be the one that reduces sales friction & offers clear differentiation, at a time when phones are becoming more competitive. And for me, two formats 1-stop apart doesn't cut it. Because they'll just end up crippling the features in the cameras, and speed & quality in the lenses to get them to the affordable range.

Other than phones, the cameras that sell most cost about $500, and the lenses that sell most cost under $500. APS-C sensors & image circles put significant constraints on what one can fit in for those prices. Nikon should be trading image circle for other features, like speed, autofocus, AI, video, wifi, etc. Package that stuff in a cheaper-than-APS-C system, and Nikon's got a winner to beat Canon, Fuji, and Sony--with an easy opening for legacy glass, which now includes all of those DX shooters who want to go mirrorless on a budget.

It is easily conceivable that Nikon could create a quarter-frame camera for well under $500 (body only) that has IBIS, 4K, wifi, fully articulating screen, fast autofocus, and all the other bells & whistles. It will do beautiful portraits when paired with a cheap ($200 or less) 50mm F/1.8 lens. But in APS-C? Less believable in the near term at this price point.
 

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