Why XQD Card?

Batdude said:

Is there a specific reason why Nikon chose this card format? From what I understand these new ML cameras are said not to be for "Pro" purposes and Nikon didn't build the Z6/7 to be speed demons, am I wrong? So why an XQD card?

If these new cameras are supposed to be targeted at new customers, if Nikon wanted a more variety of people to buy this cameras why a much more expensive memory card? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all.

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I've seen you voice your outrage over XQD prices in post after post. Honestly, I think you're blowing things out of proportion. Photography is an expensive hobby. Well-built, fast lenses cost more than mediocre lenses. That's the way it goes. For speed, handling and reliability, I'd choose XQD any day over SD. Regards. -iwbs

Again with the XQD card rant. XQD is where Nikon has been tilting for a long time now. I have plenty of XQD cards going back to my purchase of a D4 and now a D5. But if I didn’t I would have no issue going out and buying “expensive” XQD cards.

Get used to it.

The answer is 2 fold.

Firstly, the XQD card is well-built. It does not have the bendy pins on hardware or readers that the Compact Flash does. It does not have the open contacts that SD cards do.

Secondly, the XQD card is the same form-factor as the upcoming CF-Express card format; which is 7 times as fast as the XQD card. So while it is true that the best SD cards (similarly expensive compared to XQD) can compete with XQD; they can't compete with CF-Express. The Z6 & Z7 will have a firmware upgrade which will allow the use of CF-Express cards. Using CF-Express in the Z6 & Z7 will allow the buffer to clear much faster, which will make the cameras more useable.

We don't know what will come after the CF-Express, but we do know that something will. Just as no one uses floppy disks anymore, cassette tapes, or VHS tapes; the world moves on and technology will never cease it's relentless march forward.

Eventually, there will come a day when Global Wireless will enable users to just send their pictures directly to the cloud, social media, their home computer, and clients. This is the undeniable future. But that time has not yet come and in today's reality, XQD and CF-Express are being embraced because they are the best option available for speed and durability. There will likely be more formats before Global Wireless becomes fully ready.

You have two options. Keep up or leave high-end gear behind and embrace the smartphone revolution. Smartphones are becoming incredible! I challenge you or anyone else to pick up the latest smartphone and bring it with you instead of your backpack full of cameras and lenses. You may not switch, you may not switch yet, and you might actually switch; but whatever you choose, you will be stunned by the miniaturization tech that is already available to us. It's amazing! It's nearly magic!

The far future is implant tech. No matter how much people may think it's cool, VR cannot catch on as long as you have to put a giant headset on. And even a small headset is too much when you can just plug in. Everyone permanently connected to the latest incarnation of the internet.

The very farthest future is genetic melding with machines, where even a human brain (the only part worth keeping at birth) isn't really all that human anymore. That time will be without disease, without arms and legs, everyone all connected always.

The point is that things change. They have been changing. They won't ever stop changing. There is no time when we "get there". There is only always change.

Batdude said:

? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

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Compare apples to apples. The fastest SD card is still not as fast as an XQD card and it’s priced similarly or more than an XQD card.

You say this isn’t for pros.... I disagree. Plenty of pros are lining up in the NPS line to get this. Maybe not as a primary camera and maybe as their primary camera. Different cameras for different purposes and this is another tool in the tool box. Who are we to define who uses any camera in any way

Batdude said:

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

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There could be a reason SD slots ‘need’ to be dual. They likely fail more often than XQD all things being equal. In 12 years of shooting digital I’ve only had several corrupt files, never a corrupt card.

Anyway, I think you’re late to the conversation. This topic has been beaten to death in the last couple of weeks. If a single slot scares you then it may not be the right camera for you. There are plenty of other Nikon (& Sony & Fuji) cameras that fit your bill.

Batdude said:

Is there a specific reason why Nikon chose this card format? From what I understand these new ML cameras are said not to be for "Pro" purposes and Nikon didn't build the Z6/7 to be speed demons, am I wrong? So why an XQD card?

If these new cameras are supposed to be targeted at new customers, if Nikon wanted a more variety of people to buy this cameras why a much more expensive memory card? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

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Maybe to make sure Batdude sticks to Fuji?

Slower good quality SD cards cost almost the same as the fastest XQD cards, and SD are not of the same durability.

The faster card allow Nikon to use smaller buffers.

SD is old technology. The new Sony Tough cards aren't yet priced, but presumably won't be cheap. I'd still rather have an XQD.

XQD is compatible with the next generation.

If you can't afford an extra $20-30 for a faster card, what the heck do you care about a $2,000 to $3,400 camera, plus any lenses. A $130 card is still only 6% of the cost of the body, alone.

Sounds, from the other posts, that you have an anti-Z mount or anti-Nikon agenda, and this is the best argument you can come up to encourage others to buy another brand. Of course, with all you other posts that are on the Fuji or Canon sites, it's pretty obvious what axe you are grinding.

Expensive?

I bought my first digital camera in 1998, a Kodak DC120 Zoom. It used compact flash card. The first card for it held 115 megabytes and cost $150. It also took roughly 30 seconds to save an image. Things got better, later.

Relatively, XQD are not so bad.

Tuonov2 said:

Batdude said:

Is there a specific reason why Nikon chose this card format? From what I understand these new ML cameras are said not to be for "Pro" purposes and Nikon didn't build the Z6/7 to be speed demons, am I wrong? So why an XQD card?

If these new cameras are supposed to be targeted at new customers, if Nikon wanted a more variety of people to buy this cameras why a much more expensive memory card? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

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Maybe to make sure Batdude sticks to Fuji?

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Unfortunately for us he still posts here.

mgblack74 said:

m_black said:

? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

Click to expand...

Compare apples to apples. The fastest SD card is still not as fast as an XQD card and it’s priced similarly or more than an XQD card.

You say this isn’t for pros.... I disagree. Plenty of pros are lining up in the NPS line to get this. Maybe not as a primary camera and maybe as their primary camera. Different cameras for different purposes and this is another tool in the tool box. Who are we to define who uses any camera in any way

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No, I didn't say is not for pros Nikon did.

m_black said:

m_black said:

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

Click to expand...

There could be a reason SD slots ‘need’ to be dual. They likely fail more often than XQD all things being equal. In 12 years of shooting digital I’ve only had several corrupt files, never a corrupt card.

Anyway, I think you’re late to the conversation. This topic has been beaten to death in the last couple of weeks. If a single slot scares you then it may not be the right camera for you. There are plenty of other Nikon (& Sony & Fuji) cameras that fit your bill.

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I'm not late to the party because I'm not talking about the "single" SD card thing, I never complained about that and I personally have no problem with one slot so yeah that's an old subject, but still, it would be nice if Nikon on their next model puts two slots, one SD and one XQD/CF Express. A lot of us simply like and prefer the cost of a SD card. I never shoot high fps nor in AF-C with my D4. It would simply be an "option" for different kinds of photographers, you know what I'm saying.

PaulBearer said:

Slower good quality SD cards cost almost the same as the fastest XQD cards, and SD are not of the same durability.

The faster card allow Nikon to use smaller buffers.

SD is old technology. The new Sony Tough cards aren't yet priced, but presumably won't be cheap. I'd still rather have an XQD.

XQD is compatible with the next generation.

If you can't afford an extra $20-30 for a faster card, what the heck do you care about a $2,000 to $3,400 camera, plus any lenses. A $130 card is still only 6% of the cost of the body, alone.

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An extra $20-30? XQD does not cost 20-30 more. I currently use SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB SDXC UHS-I at a low price of $30 each (not $130) and I use them in my Fujis and used them with the 36MP Pentax K1 and had zero issues shooting with it. Again, although some of us use $2000 gear we don't shoot high speed, we just have or use certain cameras because they simply work for us and that's what 's available at used good affordable prices. I certainly cannot afford a $3K body.

Yes I purchased my D4 used at $2K even and have six or seven 64GB CF cards at less than $50 each, not $130. How do you come up with 20-30 more??

PaulBearer said:

Sounds, from the other posts, that you have an anti-Z mount or anti-Nikon agenda, and this is the best argument you can come up to encourage others to buy another brand. Of course, with all you other posts that are on the Fuji or Canon sites, it's pretty obvious what axe you are grinding.

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"anti-Z"? That's BS. Where on earth do you see me encouraging others to buy "another brand"?

I am a Fuji shooter so I post there as well, what do you expect? By the way, you won't see me "encouraging" anybody at the Fuji forum to buy a XT3 because I don't think that camera is for everybody and there are better ways for certain photographers/hobbyists to spend their money more efficiently. Dude my Fuji is not perfect either and I also say what I don't like about Fuji so what are you talking about?

Yes I also looked at the Canon ML and I commented on it because I am a DPR member and because I simply have the freedom to express what I think about that camera gear hahaha. That doesn't make anybody an "anti Canon" does it?

I would have loved to own the Z6 but for my business which I have just started it a little bit over a year ago but these bodies are just not cost effective for me. If you read all those posts of mine you will see that my only beef with Nikon is putting only one slot for a very expensive mem card. That's all. I am not a wedding photographer so I personally do not mind only one slot. The over all cost of the camera with XQD cards PLUS the lens adapter is just not affordable for me.

All I'm saying is that I feel Nikon should consider other type of photographers and maybe on the next model they can put one SD card slot along a XQD/CF Express for the ones that want it. That would make it more affordable for a lot more people that are interested in these cameras. Is it a sin to use more affordable components?

michaeladawson said:

Tuonov2 said:

Batdude said:

Is there a specific reason why Nikon chose this card format? From what I understand these new ML cameras are said not to be for "Pro" purposes and Nikon didn't build the Z6/7 to be speed demons, am I wrong? So why an XQD card?

If these new cameras are supposed to be targeted at new customers, if Nikon wanted a more variety of people to buy this cameras why a much more expensive memory card? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

Click to expand...

Maybe to make sure Batdude sticks to Fuji?

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Unfortunately for us he still posts here.

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Oh poor baby did I hurt your feelings :-(

So don’t buy the Z6!! For cryin’ out loud what’s the big deal? If you can’t afford it or it’s not cost effective for you then don’t buy it. Very simple.

I might suggest that if you didn’t try to maintain two systems (Nikon and Fuji) and hadn’t wasted money on a fools errand experiment into Pentax you could afford XQD cards.

Photography isn’t cheap. If you can’t afford it then perhaps you should find something else.

I, for one, am glad Nikon has stuck with XQD.

Batdude said:

michaeladawson said:

Tuonov2 said:

Batdude said:

Is there a specific reason why Nikon chose this card format? From what I understand these new ML cameras are said not to be for "Pro" purposes and Nikon didn't build the Z6/7 to be speed demons, am I wrong? So why an XQD card?

If these new cameras are supposed to be targeted at new customers, if Nikon wanted a more variety of people to buy this cameras why a much more expensive memory card? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

Click to expand...

Maybe to make sure Batdude sticks to Fuji?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately for us he still posts here.

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Oh poor baby did I hurt your feelings :-(

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Actually, no. I am always on the lookout for your inane posts. They make enjoyable comic reading.

michaeladawson said:

So don’t buy the Z6!! For cryin’ out loud what’s the big deal? If you can’t afford it or it’s not cost effective for you then don’t buy it. Very simple.

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Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang calm down man don’t want you to get a heart attack there

didn’t I say that already, that I won’t be buying it because of that? Of course is very simple.

michaeladawson said:

I might suggest that if you didn’t try to maintain two systems (Nikon and Fuji) and hadn’t wasted money on a fools errand experiment into Pentax you could afford XQD cards.

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No no no bro I’m not getting rid of Fuji for especific reasons. Waste of money? And Nikon doesn’t want us to “waste money on a fools errand to experiment “ with these Z models spending on DSLR AND ML??What exactly do you call that?

michaeladawson said:

Photography isn’t cheap. If you can’t afford it then perhaps you should find something else.

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that is one mean and terrible suggestion

michaeladawson said:

I, for one, am glad Nikon has stuck with XQD.

--
Mike Dawson

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Batdude said:

michaeladawson said:

So don’t buy the Z6!! For cryin’ out loud what’s the big deal? If you can’t afford it or it’s not cost effective for you then don’t buy it. Very simple.

Click to expand...

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang calm down man don’t want you to get a heart attack there

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I’m very calm. Comfortable sitting here reading your posts, smiling, etc. I accept the Nikon Z for what it is. I have one on order. I know it will have some warts. I’ll patiently wait for Gen 2 to fix it. And maybe even Gen 3. You’re the one venting about the XQD.

Batdude said:

didn’t I say that already, that I won’t be buying it because of that? Of course is very simple.

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So why tell us about it? I doubt the forum really cares whether you, or I, or any other member buys a Z camera.

Batdude said:

Batdude said:

I might suggest that if you didn’t try to maintain two systems (Nikon and Fuji) and hadn’t wasted money on a fools errand experiment into Pentax you could afford XQD cards.

Click to expand...

No no no bro I’m not getting rid of Fuji for especific reasons. Waste of money? And Nikon doesn’t want us to “waste money on a fools errand to experiment “ with these Z models spending on DSLR AND ML??What exactly do you call that?

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Pentax was a fools errand on your part. Always searching for that mythical perfect camera. Fools errand. Nikon Z is not. Gen 1 will not be perfect and not for those who want perfection from Day 1. So skip it and wait for Gen 2. But stick to the XQD topic. Most people have no issue with Nikon’s choice of XQD. You seem to be in the tiny minority here.

Batdude said:

Batdude said:

Photography isn’t cheap. If you can’t afford it then perhaps you should find something else.

Click to expand...

that is one mean and terrible suggestion

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Mean? Hardly. Reality. By all means pursue your dreams if at all possible. But accept the consequences. Don’t complain that Nikon makes choices that benefit the majority but maybe not you.

Batdude said:

Batdude said:

I, for one, am glad Nikon has stuck with XQD.

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Click to expand...

michaeladawson said:

Batdude said:

michaeladawson said:

So don’t buy the Z6!! For cryin’ out loud what’s the big deal? If you can’t afford it or it’s not cost effective for you then don’t buy it. Very simple.

Click to expand...

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang calm down man don’t want you to get a heart attack there

Click to expand...

I’m very calm. Comfortable sitting here reading your posts, smiling, etc. I accept the Nikon Z for what it is. I have one on order. I know it will have some warts. I’ll patiently wait for Gen 2 to fix it. And maybe even Gen 3. You’re the one venting about the XQD.

michaeladawson said:

didn’t I say that already, that I won’t be buying it because of that? Of course is very simple.

Click to expand...

So why tell us about it? I doubt the forum really cares whether you, or I, or any other member buys a Z camera.

michaeladawson said:

michaeladawson said:

I might suggest that if you didn’t try to maintain two systems (Nikon and Fuji) and hadn’t wasted money on a fools errand experiment into Pentax you could afford XQD cards.

Click to expand...

No no no bro I’m not getting rid of Fuji for especific reasons. Waste of money? And Nikon doesn’t want us to “waste money on a fools errand to experiment “ with these Z models spending on DSLR AND ML??What exactly do you call that?

Click to expand...

Pentax was a fools errand on your part. Always searching for that mythical perfect camera. Fools errand. Nikon Z is not. Gen 1 will not be perfect and not for those who want perfection from Day 1. So skip it and wait for Gen 2. But stick to the XQD topic. Most people have no issue with Nikon’s choice of XQD. You seem to be in the tiny minority here.

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what possible right do you have to call it a fool’s errand by trying the K1? I was curious and I just had to buy it and the K1 is a fantastic camera and I like it very much, except the AF and lack of lenses. You can’t live life without experimenting certain things, that’s all. God simply gave me that gift and is called freedom of will, and the Pentax K1 uses very affordable SD cards

michaeladawson said:

michaeladawson said:

michaeladawson said:

Photography isn’t cheap. If you can’t afford it then perhaps you should find something else.

Click to expand...

that is one mean and terrible suggestion

Click to expand...

Mean? Hardly. Reality. By all means pursue your dreams if at all possible. But accept the consequences. Don’t complain that Nikon makes choices that benefit the majority but maybe not you.

Click to expand...

this is the second time you use that expression “the minority”. I might be the minority (here) but I keep watching the news and dude, people are broke and there are no jobs and people are hurting each other from Mexico all the way down to South America, and that’s not including parts of Europe. Heck you should come here to Los Angeles and take a look at the amount of homeless people EVERYWHERE. It is incredible. So I disagree with you, a great majority of people that live in this world would not be able to afford a XQD card. I personally don’t want to spend my money on that why because they are not for my shooting style so yes it would be nice if Nikon puts one SD slot in there on the next body. I don’t think the majority here would mind that.

michaeladawson said:

michaeladawson said:

michaeladawson said:

I, for one, am glad Nikon has stuck with XQD.

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--
Mike Dawson

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Batdude said:

this is the second time you use that expression “the minority”. I might be the minority (here) but I keep watching the news and dude, people are broke and there are no jobs and people are hurting each other from Mexico all the way down to South America, and that’s not including parts of Europe. Heck you should come here to Los Angeles and take a look at the amount of homeless people EVERYWHERE. It is incredible.

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I don't need to go to LA to see it. I live in the SF Bay Area and I see plenty. The number of homeless people really is irrelevant to the topic of Nikon cameras

Batdude said:

So I disagree with you, a great majority of people that live in this world would not be able to afford a XQD card.

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Exactly what do you disagree with? I never said the majority of people that live in this world can afford XQD. The great majority of people that live in this world don't need to buy a Z camera either. I only said that the majority of people in this Z forum are not complaining about XQD. Maybe the lack of two card slots, but not XQD prices. You're in the minority here.

Batdude said:

I personally don’t want to spend my money on that why because they are not for my shooting style so yes it would be nice if Nikon puts one SD slot in there on the next body. I don’t think the majority here would mind that.

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You buy what you can afford. Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji all make plenty of cameras at all different price points. Why do you need a Z camera at all? Even if it had an SD card slot. You don't. You just want one.

michaeladawson said:

Batdude said:

this is the second time you use that expression “the minority”. I might be the minority (here) but I keep watching the news and dude, people are broke and there are no jobs and people are hurting each other from Mexico all the way down to South America, and that’s not including parts of Europe. Heck you should come here to Los Angeles and take a look at the amount of homeless people EVERYWHERE. It is incredible.

Click to expand...

I don't need to go to LA to see it. I live in the SF Bay Area and I see plenty. The number of homeless people really is irrelevant to the topic of Nikon cameras

michaeladawson said:

So I disagree with you, a great majority of people that live in this world would not be able to afford a XQD card.

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Exactly what do you disagree with? I never said the majority of people that live in this world can afford XQD. The great majority of people that live in this world don't need to buy a Z camera either. I only said that the majority of people in this Z forum are not complaining about XQD. Maybe the lack of two card slots, but not XQD prices. You're in the minority here.

michaeladawson said:

I personally don’t want to spend my money on that why because they are not for my shooting style so yes it would be nice if Nikon puts one SD slot in there on the next body. I don’t think the majority here would mind that.

Click to expand...

You buy what you can afford. Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji all make plenty of cameras at all different price points. Why do you need a Z camera at all? Even if it had an SD card slot. You don't. You just want one.

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Because I am a mirrorless guy and so is my wife and yes that is correct we wanted one or two FF ML for work AND because I don't want to go Sony. Definitely not Canon.

Anyway, we'll see what happens with their next model in two years or so. I'm glad you ordered your camera so please enjoy it. I'm heading to the beach to Santa Barbara so have a fantastic weekend and take care and it's been nice talking to you

Batdude said:

Is there a specific reason why Nikon chose this card format? From what I understand these new ML cameras are said not to be for "Pro" purposes and Nikon didn't build the Z6/7 to be speed demons, am I wrong? So why an XQD card?

If these new cameras are supposed to be targeted at new customers, if Nikon wanted a more variety of people to buy this cameras why a much more expensive memory card? From a financial point of view XQD cards are not cost effective and personally this is the reason why I'm not going to bother buying one of these cameras. When a customer sees that one 64GB card will cost them a whooping $130 don't you think they will get turned off by that? Doesn't Nikon think about this things??

The new Canon FF ML has a SD card and the new Fuji XT3 at 30fps has SD cards, and even DUAL slots. Recently I saw an ad here of Sony's new high quality SD cards so SD cards are not bad or unreliable at all and personally I think they are just fine and dandy.

Click to expand...

XQD is a good card technology and the form factor is compatible with the next generation CFExpress (which takes over from CFast, which took over from CompactFlash) - Nikon aim to provide firmware updates to allow the Z series cameras to use CFExpress when they are available.

Advantage for XQD is that they are fast (slightly faster than the fastest current SD cards) and that they are very robust; so if you find you get a lot of physical damage to standard SD cards, XQD has an advantage. I'm not sure if XQD gives any extra data security beyond the physical - no-one seems to publish any data on MTBF on removable media (instead they run them over, bake them and freeze them).

However as far as future-proofing is concerned...

You have to get very large files before you need to increase card speed to beyond the current maximum speeds of the fastest SD cards (if your files are under 30MB you can shoot at 10FPS at maximum write speeds until the card is full...) add a decent sized buffer in-camera and the only problem with even long bursts really high speeds is the time you have to spend sorting out which of the hundreds of shots to use. It should be noted that few cameras seem to take cards to their theoretical maximums - generally you can expect about half the maximum write speed.

There are some minor advantages for SD:

• SD readers are very common/ubiquitous, so you are less likely to need to hook the camera up to transfer files.
• an SD slot allows you to use lower speed cheaper cards (that you might already own) when you don't need continuous shooting.

These advantages might not still be relevant in future years if other memory card readers are built into devices, or once the price of the fast media comes down (as it inevitably does).