begginer question.

Donald B · Sep 2, 2018

Im not a very good video shooter, but I normally shoot my daughters dance concerts for my own use. during the week her dance school asked me to shoot a concert for them as the last pro totally ruined the last one so I gave them my near perfect video. anyway I just leave my em52 set to 60 frames manly for panning during daylight videos but have never changed it for night time as well, is their any advantage to 60 frames for the concert im going to shoot over 30 frames, I wont be zooming or panning just recording the full stage ? mounted on a tripod.

Thanks for any advise Don

kooistraalexander · Sep 2, 2018

Well with 60p I assume your shutterangle will be double of that at 30p.... so you'll lose a stop of light. And that can be a problem with low light. How you compensate that stop can be in iso, fstop etc, thats up to you to decide.

With lower light I wouldn;t go for 60p.

GiM_6x · Sep 2, 2018

You need 60 fps ONLY if you want (- really need) a slow-motion.

Else, and mostly in low light, I will go to lower fps, as 24 (cine), 25 (PAL or Europe+) or 30 (NTSC/ATSC or N.America+).

On my camera, at 24fps I can set the exposure time to 1/30s maximum.
I did not tried other (all I do is 24fps), but at 30fps most probably it will be 1/40 - 1/50s max.

All depends on how much light you have, and while you want lower ISO and a certain aperture, these will says what maximum exposure time you have to use.
Aperture may be forced if a deep of focus is required, then if already maximum exposure time, you will rise ISO to have the final good exposure.

But if you need to rise ISO too much, over 1600 / 3200 / 6400, you will need to POST to control noise.

Do a test and see if you can under-expose, 1-2EV and recover in POST, many new camera have an ISO invariant (1-3EV), but you have to know exactly, much depend on the codecs, some are more restrictive and all you need is just the right exposure.
As saving a still in JPG it require exact exposure, but saving in RAW you can have a 1-3EV or maybe more underexposure and be OK.

Go to rehersals and try different settings on a real scene/light, see which one give you the best result. Each camera have an individual "profile" and there is no a recepy for all, just guidelines.

eFilm · Sep 3, 2018

Donald B said:
is their any advantage to 60 frames for the concert im going to shoot over 30 frames, I wont be zooming or panning just recording the full stage ? mounted on a tripod.

Nope. If you're simply trying to capture the dance performances and make them look prettier, just shoot in 30fps or 24fps. It'll also be easier in low light situations where you cannot control the lighting of the scene.
Shooting in 60fps won't look as good, so save that mode for the possible short clips where you want to have some slow motion.

But before you start shooting a live performance someone else has asked you to shoot...

GiM_6x said:
Go to rehersals and try different settings on a real scene/light

Yup, this is an excellent piece of advice.
When going to shoot something new live for someone else in a place new to you, always do a practise shoot first and make sure that you are getting presentable results. Same goes for sound, too.

Pete Silver · Sep 4, 2018

As others have said going to rehearsals will help - camera position, exposure etc.

Just make sure, when recording, to use manual exposure and don't let the faces of the dancers overexpose.

Dance school theatre shows sometimes have bad, uneven lighting across the stage. So on a locked off full stage shot you may find the edges of the stage dimmer than the centre. Just do the best you can do to balance the exposure.

Can be difficult sometimes.

Good luck.

low_iso · Sep 4, 2018

I have to partially disagree with those that say there's no advantage to 60p. I shoot a lot of video with high speed movement. This is why many networks carrying sports choose 720p/60 over 1080i/30. More frames portray rapid movement better, it becomes silky smooth. I like 1080p/60 for my sports work, and would think dance is more visually akin to sports.

Films are shot at 24p with few exceptions, but that frame rate is actually less capable of rendering movement smoothly. The subtle frame "judder" of 24p works subliminally to support a narrative because we've only seen 24p films. But for live video, we're mostly programmed to accept 60p (SD video was 30i, not progressive, so it had the feel of 60p), which looks great on sports, but for any narrative work looks like a soap-opera (the visual reference is SD at 30i).

The light trade-off is a consideration, but it make make sense to trade higher ISO for higher frame rate. I would think any of today's cameras would work just fine at 60p for average performance stage lighting, but a test would be great.

I would stay with 60p if possible.

Off The Mark · Sep 4, 2018

Donald B said:
Im not a very good video shooter, but I normally shoot my daughters dance concerts for my own use. during the week her dance school asked me to shoot a concert for them as the last pro totally ruined the last one so I gave them my near perfect video. anyway I just leave my em52 set to 60 frames manly for panning during daylight videos but have never changed it for night time as well, is their any advantage to 60 frames for the concert im going to shoot over 30 frames, I wont be zooming or panning just recording the full stage ? mounted on a tripod.

Thanks for any advise Don

Pete Silver · Sep 5, 2018

low_iso said:
I have to partially disagree with those that say there's no advantage to 60p. I shoot a lot of video with high speed movement. This is why many networks carrying sports choose 720p/60 over 1080i/30. More frames portray rapid movement better, it becomes silky smooth. I like 1080p/60 for my sports work, and would think dance is more visually akin to sports.

Films are shot at 24p with few exceptions, but that frame rate is actually less capable of rendering movement smoothly. The subtle frame "judder" of 24p works subliminally to support a narrative because we've only seen 24p films. But for live video, we're mostly programmed to accept 60p (SD video was 30i, not progressive, so it had the feel of 60p), which looks great on sports, but for any narrative work looks like a soap-opera (the visual reference is SD at 30i).

The light trade-off is a consideration, but it make make sense to trade higher ISO for higher frame rate. I would think any of today's cameras would work just fine at 60p for average performance stage lighting, but a test would be great.

I would stay with 60p if possible.

I agree, all dance school videos I shoot are at 50p (here in the UK)

Much smoother movement and no jerkiness.

Off The Mark · Sep 7, 2018

Pete Silver said:
I agree, all dance school videos I shoot are at 50p (here in the UK)

Much smoother movement and no jerkiness.

Just curious; have you ever shot at 50fps but left the shutter at 1/50th instead of 1/100th? If so, how does it look?

That might be a happy compromise for the OP if he finds that boosting his shutter to 1/120th means he has to crank the ISO so high that things are too noisy (or blurry due to in-camera noise reduction decreasing the sharpness).

Pete Silver · Sep 10, 2018

Off The Mark said:
Pete Silver said:

I agree, all dance school videos I shoot are at 50p (here in the UK)

Much smoother movement and no jerkiness.

Click to expand...

Just curious; have you ever shot at 50fps but left the shutter at 1/50th instead of 1/100th? If so, how does it look?

That might be a happy compromise for the OP if he finds that boosting his shutter to 1/120th means he has to crank the ISO so high that things are too noisy (or blurry due to in-camera noise reduction decreasing the sharpness).

I use a 'proper' video camera set at 50i and 50th shutter (standard setting on camera).

To me using a high shutter speed makes things look kind of stuttery.

With the settings I use (same when I shot tv) it gives just a slight hint of motion blur.

Off The Mark · Sep 10, 2018

Pete Silver said:
Off The Mark said:

Pete Silver said:

I agree, all dance school videos I shoot are at 50p (here in the UK)

Much smoother movement and no jerkiness.

Click to expand...

Just curious; have you ever shot at 50fps but left the shutter at 1/50th instead of 1/100th? If so, how does it look?

That might be a happy compromise for the OP if he finds that boosting his shutter to 1/120th means he has to crank the ISO so high that things are too noisy (or blurry due to in-camera noise reduction decreasing the sharpness).

Click to expand...

I use a 'proper' video camera set at 50i and 50th shutter (standard setting on camera).

To me using a high shutter speed makes things look kind of stuttery.

With the settings I use (same when I shot tv) it gives just a slight hint of motion blur.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

One more question: is there a difference at all at shooting at 50i instead of 50p when it comes to motion? Or is that just what the camera offers?

Pete Silver · Sep 11, 2018

Off The Mark said:
Pete Silver said:

Off The Mark said:

Pete Silver said:

I agree, all dance school videos I shoot are at 50p (here in the UK)

Much smoother movement and no jerkiness.

Click to expand...

Just curious; have you ever shot at 50fps but left the shutter at 1/50th instead of 1/100th? If so, how does it look?

That might be a happy compromise for the OP if he finds that boosting his shutter to 1/120th means he has to crank the ISO so high that things are too noisy (or blurry due to in-camera noise reduction decreasing the sharpness).

Click to expand...

I use a 'proper' video camera set at 50i and 50th shutter (standard setting on camera).

To me using a high shutter speed makes things look kind of stuttery.

With the settings I use (same when I shot tv) it gives just a slight hint of motion blur.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experience.

One more question: is there a difference at all at shooting at 50i instead of 50p when it comes to motion? Or is that just what the camera offers?

The difference between 50p and 50i is not there in modern tvs. 50p is fine for all uses. 50i (interlaced) was used on older tvs, A lot of stuff I shoot now goes down to dvd which uses 50i.

Off The Mark · Sep 11, 2018

Pete Silver said:
The difference between 50p and 50i is not there in modern tvs. 50p is fine for all uses. 50i (interlaced) was used on older tvs, A lot of stuff I shoot now goes down to dvd which uses 50i.

Thanks for the elaboration!!!

Donald B · Sep 19, 2018

low_iso said:
I have to partially disagree with those that say there's no advantage to 60p. I shoot a lot of video with high speed movement. This is why many networks carrying sports choose 720p/60 over 1080i/30. More frames portray rapid movement better, it becomes silky smooth. I like 1080p/60 for my sports work, and would think dance is more visually akin to sports.

Films are shot at 24p with few exceptions, but that frame rate is actually less capable of rendering movement smoothly. The subtle frame "judder" of 24p works subliminally to support a narrative because we've only seen 24p films. But for live video, we're mostly programmed to accept 60p (SD video was 30i, not progressive, so it had the feel of 60p), which looks great on sports, but for any narrative work looks like a soap-opera (the visual reference is SD at 30i).

The light trade-off is a consideration, but it make make sense to trade higher ISO for higher frame rate. I would think any of today's cameras would work just fine at 60p for average performance stage lighting, but a test would be great.

I would stay with 60p if possible.

Thanks for the advice. will stick with 60 frames.

Don

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