Time for MFT to mature a bit??

OK I said it before but I miss the angled viewfinder on the GX8 and the Pen-F for all the other reasons out there ;-) I keep looking for a black Pen-F and a couple of primes on the usual suspect websites.

When I had those above mentioned cameras I enjoyed the forum here - mostly!

What I couldn't stand and still have no time for is this penetrant and permanent underselling of the format: "no need for FF, look what I can do with MFT" .. National Geographic full of MFT (I thought that those pics were actually lacking but thought I better not say anything...) and then this constant looking at the others.

The way I see it is that the MFT has plenty of substance by itself and maybe one should look at what you can do with it rather than look for something the system can do "almost" as well as some of the bigger guys.

Take one of the Oly bodies and maybe a zoom (12-40/2.8??) and add a prime for the odd occasion - and you are set for a fabulously lightweight and still capable travel kit. I traveled Vietnam and Cambodia with a 3-lens set the 12/2, the 42.5/1.7 and the 75/1.8 a ridiculously capable combo which only let me down after dark.









Some more self confidence would be better than this constant looking left, right and centre to see where MFT is as good (better??) as the competition.

I feel embarrassed every time somebody gets a high thumbs-up count when he/she mentions how MFT is best.

So rather than feeling like the measly mouse in the yard, why not just use the system with all it's strengths without looking anxiously to see what the others are doing. Compare if you like (great fun this can be) but the vast majority of people shoot with cell phones for goodness sake.

*rantover*


Pen-F 12/2

Deed

Amazing shots. I agree that most people just need to go out and shoot rather than focusing on gear. I get caught in all the gear hype myself, but I find shooting a little bit more fun than lusting over gear as of late.

I agree with your point. But I survive thinking at how beautiful is an instrument like an internet forum about photography which has a lot of opportunity of learning and admiring beautiful pics. I simply don’t care about threads I’m not interested in, but hey... this is a forum of people from each part of the world, and there are so many opinions and points of view....

I agree, however...

I think m43 is a beautiful system and I love it. I don't care about all the so-called limitations that people post on here.

However manufacturers don't make systems because they are beautiful. They make them if they are profitable.

They are profitable if they are good, well designed, perceived as value for money, and marketed well.

look at Nikon 1. Potentially a beautiful system, screwed up by Nikon in so many ways - as has been discussed at length.

I simply am anxious that in years to come there will be no m43.

FoPar said:

I agree, however...

I think m43 is a beautiful system and I love it. I don't care about all the so-called limitations that people post on here.

However manufacturers don't make systems because they are beautiful. They make them if they are profitable.

They are profitable if they are good, well designed, perceived as value for money, and marketed well.

look at Nikon 1. Potentially a beautiful system, screwed up by Nikon in so many ways - as has been discussed at length.

I simply am anxious that in years to come there will be no m43.

Click to expand...

12 posts?? Really??

Just made that comment with regards to you commenting on "so-called limitations that people post on here." Are you a passive user or simply couldn't find your passowrd for your old account?

Be it as it may I think you have a point when you like the design of the MFT ("beautiful system") so they must have done something right.

But think that you are wrong when you assume that manufacturers "don't make systems because they are beautiful": I bought the Pen-F BECAUSE if the design. The capabilities were fine on paper, so I bought one.

But have a soft spot for the Leica M and the X-Pro2:




Fuji web




Thorsten Overgaard




B&H pic

A really good friend of mine bought the E-M1 but I can't for the ... I mean that sure is an ugly camera in my opinion of course!!




ephotozine pic

Do you really want to pickup the E-M1 and have it on your round coffee table and look at it?? How about the Pen-F????

A matter of opinion needless to say, right?

Deed

deednets said:

Some more self confidence would be better than this constant looking left, right and centre to see where MFT is as good (better??) as the competition.

...

So rather than feeling like the measly mouse in the yard, why not just use the system with all it's strengths without looking anxiously to see what the others are doing. Compare if you like (great fun this can be) but the vast majority of people shoot with cell phones for goodness sake.

*rantover*

Deed

Click to expand...

I agree with you

but this continuously comparing different tools is typical of gear-oriented websites as DPREVIEW is. Self confidence is missing also on many of the other DPREVIEW gear-forums. Some are afraid that the their gear is not good enough. Some are afraid that their photo are not good enough despite the expensive gear and so on.

This generate a lot of useless treads on the m43 forum and give the feeling (to me too) that a lot of people are unhappy with their gear. I generally try to stay away from these kind of treads.

At present m43 is for me good enough for my need that I decided to have only one system. I had also a time I was not feeling sure about my choise. My problem was mainly the lack of good CAF and good tele for wildlife photography, not the absolute image quality.

Now m43 provide both and so I am happy with the system. In the last couple of years I also had the chance to try several time different systems (Nikon D750 and D500 with a tamron 150-600 and nikkor 300 f2.8and Fuji X-Pro 2with 100-400). This was good for me because now I am even more confident about my gear. It is not the best in absolute value, but right now it is the best for my needs and I can enjoy it.

So I hope both panasonic and olympus will continue to develope the system so that I can use my lenses for a long time more may be also together with other systems.

Stefano

Because internet.

btwango said:

Because internet.

Click to expand...

Hehe .. and you were using what vehicle to respond??

Not sure whether a communications channel can be responsible for some insecurities in what appears to be the smallest sensor professional system.

The little one just can't run fast enough to escape the hordes, so is first to get a hiding.

Deed

Like in all things design and looks do play a big part in decision making, just look at car manufacturers for example, but for me I like M4/3 and specifically my EM1-1 as it does what I need it to do and more importantly I enjoy using it.

I haven't even held a Pen F but I'm sure if given the opportunity I would be happy to use this. I do have a Fuji X100T that doesn't get out much nowadays but when the mood takes me it just looks and feels "right".

What happens if there is no mft in x number of years? I may or may not be around to care but there will always be something to use in its place and in the meantime I'll continue to use what I have (despite GAS popping up now and again).

John

While I agree totally with most of your post, I think it is still important to know what your equipment is capable of and how gear can help following one's photographic vision. After all, this is an mft gear forum, so relating pictures to that specific gear does not seem out of place.

We have a lot of marketing around us trying to make us believe that our equipment is not enough that we need to upgrade in one direction or the other, so from time to time, seeing what good photographers are able to do with mft equipment is a good reminder that what most of us need to upgrade our skills, not the camera.

Likewise, good smartphone pictures are also a good indication of mft equipment being overkill for some applications.

I don’t believe there is any debate about parity in image quality. However, the push toward such has been driving M4/3 since it’s advent. It’s implied by the manufacturers with every release to a high end camera or lens. You can’t sell a 2k body, or a 1k lens without implying equivalence to pro ff.

So, it’s no surprise that a forum about gear comparisons should be stuck on that theme. It’s far easier to discuss gear than photographs, or worse yet, make good photographs.

In any event, since you seem to desire forum drama so I’ll add your photographs in the OP seem to play squarely in to FF mimic territory which is exactly the opposite of your posts intent. Your first two images would have been much stronger, I feel, with greater depth of field.

In fact, such easy access to deep depth of field is enviable so are the teeny tiny lenses, stabilized bodies (which work better on the smaller sensor) , and the promise if not reality, of small bodies. But oops! Comparisons again.

Anyway, there is some really amazing, eye opening photography being made with these cameras, not in spite of them. I imagine there would be a whole lot more of it if EXIF data was not readily available.

Many of you most know (and will hopefully share) working photographers within the format that are not shills. I’ve recently discovered Ming Thein’s work using the pen f and find it quite sensational.

deednets said:

What I couldn't stand and still have no time for is this penetrant and permanent underselling of the format: "no need for FF, look what I can do with MFT" .. National Geographic full of MFT (I thought that those pics were actually lacking but thought I better not say anything...) and then this constant looking at the others.

Click to expand...

Comments like these are just a natural reaction to constant "reminders" by certain people that full-frame cameras are better (and that f/1.8 is not f/1.8) and if you want to make some "serious" photography, m4/3 is not good enough.

There are certain aspects of larger sensors that are, in certain conditions, better, and nobody is disputing that, but that is far from everything one needs for a "serious" photography. So it is only natural that for every post or thread about advantages of larger sensors there is a post or thread about how m4/3 as a system is in fact just as good, or better, than are other systems.

MatLD said:

While I agree totally with most of your post, I think it is still important to know what your equipment is capable of and how gear can help following one's photographic vision. After all, this is an mft gear forum, so relating pictures to that specific gear does not seem out of place.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Imagine question - "I would like to be a world-class wildlife photographer. What gear would I need?" Some would start to wax lyrical about advantages of full-frame sensors, and some would just post a link to Petr's website, or his threads here on this forum.

The same for question about fashion or wedding photography. There are great photographers, using m4/3 cameras. Because they know full well the so-called IQ (noise etc.) is good enough for just about any paid job or exhibition, and are happy exploiting other advantages of the system (size, weight, price, speed, feature set etc.).

I see two problems.


The first is that quite a few do not really understand the place of M43 in the scheme of things.


M43 is great if you need portability for thing like travel and hiking. It is the way to go if for some reason you need an unobtrusive camera.


I would say it is the best choice for most who are interested in using an ILC, those who do not print large and those who just want to record their holidays and family events.
For certain things my FF stays at home for good reasons. For other things I now use FF
Second and perhaps more difficult to understand from many points of observation is the small contingent of “visitors”, some of them top posters here who are continually telling us that M43 does not cut it.


Snide remarks like saying that our 2.8 lenses are really F4 and all that harping on about stops of noise are the tools of choice to continually denigrate this system. Of course, they are just “educating us”, if challenged. This idiocy does not happen on the MU43 forum that I follow too.

deednets said:

The way I see it is that the MFT has plenty of substance by itself and maybe one should look at what you can do with it rather than look for something the system can do "almost" as well as some of the bigger guys.

Click to expand...

That's my suggestion for Oly/Panasonic marketing. Instead of suffering FOMO, use it - advertise what you can do and do well with m43.

Nice photos, BTW !

- Dennis

NCV said:

I see two problems.

The first is that quite a few do not really understand the place of M43 in the scheme of things.

M43 is great if you need portability for thing like travel and hiking. It is the way to go if for some reason you need an unobtrusive camera.

I would say it is the best choice for most who are interested in using an ILC, those who do not print large and those who just want to record their holidays and family events.

Click to expand...

That's seriously lame ! Meanwhile, you have Jay Dickman shooting with micro 4/3 ... you have cameras that can shoot 20fps and down to crazy slow shutter speeds handheld.

Canon doesn't sell gazillions of Rebels by advertising that "it's good for birthday parties". GoPro doesn't sell cameras by showing 50-something year olds paddling in a canoe.

Member said:

Snide remarks like saying that our 2.8 lenses are really F4 and all that harping on about stops of noise are the tools of choice to continually denigrate this system.

Click to expand...

It's not the snide remarks that are the problem - it's the 150-post arguments (by people like you) that they're wrong. My daughter learned in kindergarten that the quickest way to shut up people like that (assuming there are people "harping" on it) is to reply "so what" ? Once you embrace the idea that m43 doesn't have to be "almost FF" then you don't get defensive when someone says it's not equivalent to FF. You move onto talking about what's good about the system.

Member said:

Of course, they are just “educating us”, if challenged. This idiocy does not happen on the MU43 forum that I follow too.

Click to expand...

Yeah, like I said, it's not "them" (or certainly not ONLY them) that's the problem.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Dennis said:

NCV said:

I see two problems.

The first is that quite a few do not really understand the place of M43 in the scheme of things.

M43 is great if you need portability for thing like travel and hiking. It is the way to go if for some reason you need an unobtrusive camera.

I would say it is the best choice for most who are interested in using an ILC, those who do not print large and those who just want to record their holidays and family events.

Click to expand...

That's seriously lame ! Meanwhile, you have Jay Dickman shooting with micro 4/3 ... you have cameras that can shoot 20fps and down to crazy slow shutter speeds handheld.

Click to expand...

I do not think you understood my point. M43 is a great system. It has opened many creative doors for me with IBIS and such.

But it is not the best tool for every occasion.

Who is Jay Dickman?

Dennis said:

Canon doesn't sell gazillions of Rebels by advertising that "it's good for birthday parties". GoPro doesn't sell cameras by showing 50-something year olds paddling in a canoe.

Click to expand...

But Rebels and other plastic fantastic DSLRS are used for "that" in the vast majority of cases.

GoPRo is used a lot by the Lycro dreamers to record their “feats”

Dennis said:

Dennis said:

Snide remarks like saying that our 2.8 lenses are really F4 and all that harping on about stops of noise are the tools of choice to continually denigrate this system.

Click to expand...

It's not the snide remarks that are the problem - it's the 150-post arguments (by people like you) that they're wrong. My daughter learned in kindergarten that the quickest way to shut up people like that (assuming there are people "harping" on it) is to reply "so what" ? Once you embrace the idea that m43 doesn't have to be "almost FF" then you don't get defensive when someone says it's not equivalent to FF. You move onto talking about what's good about the system.

Click to expand...

You know the score here. An interesting thread often gets hijacked by these clowns and we get a super dose of pseudo-science. I see no problem in pointing out some facts that mostly invalidate their arguments.


If nobody points out the fallacies of the “E” stuff then even more people will get taken in.
I just try to avoid getting involved in the ping pong, as these guys ALWAYS have to have the last word.

Dennis said:

Dennis said:

Of course, they are just “educating us”, if challenged. This idiocy does not happen on the MU43 forum that I follow too.

Click to expand...

Yeah, like I said, it's not "them" (or certainly not ONLY them) that's the problem.

Click to expand...

As I said, on the MU43 forum this stuff gets jumped on quickly.

Dennis said:

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

NCV said:

I see two problems.

The first is that quite a few do not really understand the place of M43 in the scheme of things.

M43 is great if you need portability for thing like travel and hiking.

Click to expand...

Don't you need hi-resolution, good detail when photographing landscapes? Especially when hiking. It does not need to be the big camera, by the way, but the resolution is essential.

Member said:

It is the way to go if for some reason you need an unobtrusive camera.

Click to expand...

What would that "some" reason be, I wonder.

Member said:

I would say it is the best choice for most who are interested in using an ILC, those who do not print large and those who just want to record their holidays and family events.

Click to expand...

Sure. The family of trees in winter (and why should one bother with the one specific brand only),

Member said:

For certain things my FF stays at home for good reasons. For other things I now use FF

Click to expand...

I would definitely leave it at home when I know I would not be allowed in with the camera on my shoulder, regardless of its size.

Member said:

Second and perhaps more difficult to understand from many points of observation is the small contingent of “visitors”, some of them top posters here who are continually telling us that M43 does not cut it.

Snide remarks like saying that our 2.8 lenses are really F4

Click to expand...

F5.6 actually, if you are talking about the full frame format.

Member said:

and all that harping on about stops of noise

Click to expand...

Two stops to FF. That at least how it is seen in dpr comparisons.

Member said:

are the tools of choice to continually denigrate this system.

Click to expand...

It's all what you do with it, not what they say. Some would say they continually denigrate the phone cameras, but that would not be me, I never said that.

Member said:

Of course, they are just “educating us”, if challenged.

Click to expand...

Challenged?

Member said:

This idiocy does not happen on the MU43 forum that I follow too.

Click to expand...

--
- sergey

Nice colors, did you edit it a bit?

NCV said:

Dennis said:

NCV said:

I see two problems.

The first is that quite a few do not really understand the place of M43 in the scheme of things.

M43 is great if you need portability for thing like travel and hiking. It is the way to go if for some reason you need an unobtrusive camera.

I would say it is the best choice for most who are interested in using an ILC, those who do not print large and those who just want to record their holidays and family events.

Click to expand...

That's seriously lame ! Meanwhile, you have Jay Dickman shooting with micro 4/3 ... you have cameras that can shoot 20fps and down to crazy slow shutter speeds handheld.

Click to expand...

I do not think you understood my point. M43 is a great system. It has opened many creative doors for me with IBIS and such.

But it is not the best tool for every occasion.

Who is Jay Dickman?

Member said:

Canon doesn't sell gazillions of Rebels by advertising that "it's good for birthday parties". GoPro doesn't sell cameras by showing 50-something year olds paddling in a canoe.

Click to expand...

But Rebels and other plastic fantastic DSLRS are used for "that" in the vast majority of cases.

GoPRo is used a lot by the Lycro dreamers to record their “feats”

Member said:

Member said:

Snide remarks like saying that our 2.8 lenses are really F4 and all that harping on about stops of noise are the tools of choice to continually denigrate this system.

Click to expand...

It's not the snide remarks that are the problem - it's the 150-post arguments (by people like you) that they're wrong. My daughter learned in kindergarten that the quickest way to shut up people like that (assuming there are people "harping" on it) is to reply "so what" ? Once you embrace the idea that m43 doesn't have to be "almost FF" then you don't get defensive when someone says it's not equivalent to FF. You move onto talking about what's good about the system.

Click to expand...

You know the score here. An interesting thread often gets hijacked by these clowns and we get a super dose of pseudo-science. I see no problem in pointing out some facts that mostly invalidate their arguments.

If nobody points out the fallacies of the “E” stuff then even more people will get taken in.

Click to expand...

Must be some very powerful pseudo-science those clowns are using . And where would mFT be as a system today, without people like you, who constantly invalidate their arguments. I close my eyes, can't see a thing.

Member said:

I just try to avoid getting involved in the ping pong, as these guys ALWAYS have to have the last word.

Member said:

Member said:

Of course, they are just “educating us”, if challenged. This idiocy does not happen on the MU43 forum that I follow too.

Click to expand...

Yeah, like I said, it's not "them" (or certainly not ONLY them) that's the problem.

Click to expand...

As I said, on the MU43 forum this stuff gets jumped on quickly.

Member said:

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
- sergey